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"You will not taste death: Jesus and Epicureanism" (Gospel of Thomas Thread)

  • Titus
  • June 23, 2021 at 4:34 PM
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  • mlinssen
    02 - Level Two
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    • February 6, 2026 at 10:34 AM
    • #21
    Quote from Eikadistes

    This is an awesome contribution of material. thank you for sharing your work!

    Thank you Eikadistes!
    Language is a living creature, and translated texts fixated in time. They need to be renewed every now and then for sure. With regards to Thomas, what has been produced by biblical academic simply *is* wrong at points, unsupported by dictionary and lexicon

    In this reply I will merely counter with the content of Thomas, free from anything else.
    From my own translation, but please don't hesitate to use the ones from:

    https://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

    (Yes, it's an old site and they don't have HTTPS enabled, so you'll have to click through a bit. Par for the course alas)

    With regards to translations, proof is in Logion 9:

    "and some others fell upon the acacias nilotica; they choked the seed, and the worm ate them"

    The seed and worm are singular, and hence the only thing eaten by that particular worm is, indeed, the "thorns" - hence my interpretation of the multi-deities of Egypt represented by the acacias nilotica, who the serpent Apophis attempts to devour when Ra embarks on his nightly voyage across the skies with his boat filled to the brim with them all.

    Right, the various translations:

    Lambdin Translation - Thomas Oden Lambdin was an American linguist and scholar of the Semitic and Egyptian languages. His translation is held in highest esteem, yet it is THE most inaccurate translation, translating the same Coptic word with different English ones, while using those same English ones for other Coptic words as well.
    "And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate them" in Logion 9 tells us everything

    Meyer Translation - an NT scholar like most, Meyer produced a needlessly and primarily colourful translation with 'Yeshua' all over it; this translation tries too hard to sound awfully Jewish. Shimon Kefa, Matai, Yohanan the baptizer: 'nuff said. To be frank, it's a good translation overall although harmonised as usual to the canonicals.
    "Others fell on thorns and they choked the seeds and worms devoured them."

    Davies Translation - Stevan Davies, NT scholar, is the scholar most addicted to Thomas ;) and surpasses even me in that regard, I think. Unfortunately, Davies takes just about everything in Thomas literally and ought to have been forbidden to produce a translation - it's simply hideous and adds adjectives and even whole phrases where ever felt needed. Honestly, there should be prison sentences to this.
    "Some fell into patches of thorny weeds that kept it from growing and grubs ate it"

    Patterson and Meyer Translation - Stephen J. Patterson is yet another non-linguist, and this is yet another inaccurate Thomas translation.
    Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them

    Patterson and Robinson Translation - James Robinson has produced massive volumes on everything Nag Hammadi, and apparently felt the need to put his name below a Thomas translation.
    "(4) And others fell among the thorns, they choked the seeds, and worms ate them."

    My English translation of least bad choice is Guillaumont, the 1959 edition:
    "And others fell on the thorns; they choked the seed, and the worm ate them."

    See? That's not hard to do now, or is it. On the downside, his is the very first English and gets abused by all others in order to sanctify emendations, whereas his are notoriously against any and all rules. Logion 74 as example:

    10 ⲧϫⲱⲧⲉ sic; l. ⲧϣⲱⲧⲉ
    11 ⲧϣⲱⲛⲉ sic; l. ⲧϣⲱⲧⲉ

    And that's the full extent of the whole emendation - to which I wrote a 24-page paper in return

    Quote

    I think this is a fair summation, with perhaps one tweak on point (3)., which corresponds with an earlier observation on prayer: while the forms of the gods are indifferent to the human drama, we are encouraged to practice piety, and engage in prayer (so long as it isn't about wish fulfillment).

    That certainly is an irreconcilable difference with Thomas then!

    6. they questioned him, his Disciples, they said to him: does thou desire that we Fast, and what is the manner <we> will pray, give Alms and Observe what within food? IS said: do not say+ lies, and that which you hate do not do it: they <are> all uncovering within the presence of the heaven.
    14. IS said to them: if you should Fast, you will beget to you a sin; and if you should pray, they will Condemn you; and if you should give Alms, you will make an Evil one of your Spirits.
    104. they said [to IS]: come, and we pray today, and we Fast. IS said: what Indeed is the sin <that> I have made, Or in what have they become strong to me?

    Quote

    Out of curiosity, have you found any relationship between the propositions in Thomas and the Apikorsim tradition in Judaism? I've loosely understood Thomas to be a mystical document that emerged from post-Second Temple Messianic Judaism, so in the regard of setting a contrast against other sects, I wonder if they were sympathetic to Apikorsim (less so ideologically, but perhaps more so in an "enemy of my enemy" kind of way).

    I just Googled that, and understand Apikorsim to be a Jewish label to refer to Judaic / Samaritan "heathens". Never heard the phrase before!

    I can't find any pro-religion in Thomas, at all. Certainly nothing Christian, but also nothing Judaic.
    I ought to have been clear on this point: to me there are no Jews, as that label hopelessly conflates ethnic and religion people. I speak of Judeans and Samarians, people who live in those regions regardless of their religion. I speaks of Judaics and Samaritans when I refer to the religious people. I have been in the position for years now that Thomas, an Egyptian, likely came from a Samaritan background but at best turned Samarian only.
    As such, a fierce hate towards Judeans essentially is "nothing uncommon", when we consider that most countries have their own North & South.
    This is not antisemitism, mind you. Very little is known about the true history between Samaritans and Judeans, but we do know they clashed and disagreed fiercely on a relatively minor set of religious issues

    Quote

    Tonally, I observe a contrast against Epicurean texts. Thomas relies heavily on (what I think Epíkouros would agree to refer to as) "the mythic drama of tragic poets", in this case, the narratives provided from ancient Hebrew texts, like Genesis and Jacob. Epíkouros suggests that only a wise person can interface with art and metaphor in a helpful manner, so using fables and metaphors as teaching tools for students is seen as obfuscating (compared with parresia, "frank speech").

    Could you please elaborate? I think it is a very big step from seeing a word mentioned in a text to claiming heavy reliance - especially if those very words are ridiculed and rejected. The five trees of Thomas obviously are utterly dead trees (unless they're evergreens and stand in e.g. a cave where there never is any wind at all), and the disciples inquiring "who will be our Mummy when you've left?" unleashes a typical rejection from Thomas. Jacob, the Righteous (Psalms 99:4), is the father of Samaritans, David the father of Judeans. The place where Jacob had his dream, after which he still dared to bargain with God, is the very mount Gerizim where Samaritans have their only altar, whereas Judaics are supposed to only have it in Jerusalem - the one main theological dispute between both. The disciples are presumed to be Judaic yet get referred to the father of all Samaritans: this little logion refers to a highly volatile topic!

    The setting of Thomas is that of Judaic / Samaritan disciples verifying their teachings against someone they treat as authority. The presence of Tanakh elements can't be surprising in that context. What *is* surprising is the outright rejection, time and again, of each of these elements, by that alleged authority. And that is diametrically opposed to 'heavy reliance on', in my view.
    But please, do elaborate: I have likely misread what you wrote

    Quote

    That doesn't necessarily mean that the content of those metaphors is anti-thetical. I think, maybe, speaking for myself, as an Epicurean, I want to skip metaphors and ask for a frank description, because I feel like I can never truly be sure what someone wielding metaphor really means. At the same time, it isn't pure grey—like you indicate, all translations benefit from review, and I am sure that there are more authentic, versus less authentic translations, each being the consequence of the educational resources available to the translator. Inter-disciplinary study is very helpful.

    I fully agree on the metaphors, and here is an interpretation nonetheless: I am absolutely certain that Thomas did this on purpose (and will decline elaborating on motive for obvious reasons hahah) and that his text is a test from start to finish. It is something to be released out in the wild, and whoever passes the test automatically "finds the kingdom". It is deliberately obscure, and logion 20 exemplifies why so:

    20. the Disciples said to IS: say it to us; the kingdom of the heavens is comparable to what? he said to them: she is comparable to a grain of mustard, being *few*, More than all the seeds. Whenever However she should fall upon the earth which they do work <on>, habitually he puts forth a great branch; and he comes to be Protection of birds of the heaven

    The mustard grain is not smaller than all other seeds, it is FEWER (exact same word as in logion 75). No one in his sane mind would use a grain of mustard as a seed, and there are only a select few who will crack the Thomas puzzle.
    Christianity is music for the masses and requires only blind belief, obedience, submission - but Thomas is meant for the very inquisitive and critical, and requires the very opposite of these traits.
    This text is too damn elite for its own good, it's like a 5-dimensional Rubiks cube

  • mlinssen
    02 - Level Two
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    • February 6, 2026 at 11:15 AM
    • #22
    Quote from Cassius

    Ok so that's a big one. So there is no eternal soul?

    29. IS said if indeed the Flesh has come to be because of Spirit, a wonder is <the flesh>; if indeed Spirit However because of the Body, a wonder [of wonder] is <the Body>. Rather, I myself wonder this one: Ho[w] did [this] great richness dwell in this poverty?

    87. he said, viz. IS: a Miserable one [is] the Body which <is> hanging of a Body, and a M[i]serable is the Soul which <is> hanging of these ones both [to]gether

    112. IS said: woe to the Flesh, this one who is hanging of the Soul! woe to the Soul, this one who is hanging of the Flesh!

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from mlinssen

    Anti-Judaism is a great distraction in Thomas.

    Without being graphic, what's the general basis of this criticism. We know that Diogenes of Oinoanda is critical as well based on what appears to be general ethics, but what's the general basis of this criticism?

    I'm unsure whether you are referring to my claim that it is a distraction, or whether it concerns my label of anti-Judaism. Please see my previous comment to Eukadistes regarding the rejection of religious customs: if we presume that religion to be Judaism (which I think is certainly fair to do), then these are the basic anti-Judaisms in Thomas (Logia 6, 14, 104). To those, he adds:

    27. in case you do not Fast to the World, you will not fall onto the kingdom; in case you do not make the Sabbath into Father's Day (sAB'BAth), you will not behold the father

    43. they said to him, viz. his Disciples: who thou? thou say these ones to us. in these: I say them to you, and you do not understand who myself <is>. Rather, you yourselves came to be in the manner of the/those Judeans: they love the tree, they hate his Fruit; and they love the Fruit, they hate the tree

    52. his Disciples said to him: twenty four Prophets spoke in Israel, and they all spoke in thee. he said to them: you dismissed him who is alive within your presence, and you spoke concerning them who are dead

    53. his Disciples said to him: is the circumcision Useful Or no? he said to them: were he Useful, their father would beget them from their mother circumcised. Rather, the true circumcision in Spirit found all usefulness

    85. IS said: Adam has come to be from a great Power, with a gre[at] richness, and he did not come to be [he is w]orthy of you. Had they been Worthy Indeed he [would have taken taste] not of the death

    88. IS said: the Messengers <are> coming toward you with the Prophets, and they will give to you them who you have; and yourselves likewise you give them from your hand to them and you say it to you: what day, <on> which they are coming, and they take him who is theirs

    (In Coptic there ony are pointers to masculine or feminine nouns. The word 'it' doesn't exist, there is no neuter class. He-who can be taken to translate to that-which but wholly depends on interpretation when the referrent itself is not present. I default to he-who)

    102. IS said[: w]oe to them, the Pharisees! they rese[mble a] dog who sleeps upon the manger of [some] oxen: he Neither eats Nor [permits] the oxen to eat

    (This is a perfect example of an anti-Judaism that *purely* is a distraction. What lesson possibly is to learn from this?!)

    Quote from Cassius

    So are the deities of Thomas the creators of the universe? Are they active in human affairs at all?

    There are none at all. Here are the two logia that mention 'god':

    30. IS said: the place <where> there are three gods, some gods are therein; the place <where> there are two Or one; I myself am existing with him

    100. they showed IS a gold, and said to him: they who <are> counting to Caesar demand of us the taxes. he said to them: give those of Caesar to Caesar, give those of the god to the god, and he who mine is you give him to m

    Quote from Cassius

    Most of that sounds parallel but the references to "outside" and "inside" seem a little unclear (?)

    The kingdom is of your inside, and of your eye - that last word is a homonym and could be interpreted to mean 'outside', but that doesn't square with the outright (hah!) rejection of outside:

    40. IS said a vine of grape, they planted her within the outside part of the father, and she <is> not made strong - they will tear her out at her root and she is lost

    64. ... the slaveowner# said to his slave: go to the outside part, to the paths ...

    89. IS said: because of what do you wash the outside part of the Cup, do you not Perceive: he who has created the inside part, he <is> also he who has created the outside part

    99. the Disciples said to him: thy brothers with thy mother <are> standing to their feet on the outside part. he said to them: they of these places who do the desire of my father; these ones are my brothers with my mother; themselves will go inward to the kingdom of my father

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from mlinssen

    I find the Epictetus idea of only caring for that which is in your control particularly strong in Thomas. Let's be honest, all ideas about any cosmogony are mere opinions.

    As for that last part I would say that Epicurus would strongly disagree, so this would be a major point of difference.

    That "all ideas about any cosmogony are mere opinions" was my personal note, please ignore - apologies

    Quote from Cassius

    Yes that sounds highly incompatible, and indicates something much more "dark" than I would say Epicurus would approve of. But to understand that would require more definition of whatever positive side Thomas was promoting, and I am not clear on his positive teaching at this point.

    To be honest, Thomas is not teaching anything "positive". He is critical, fierce, sarcastic, biting, rejects pretty much everything there is to reject. Yeah, "love your brother" is one, but then who's that? Nope, Thomas most certainly is very dark, yes

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from mlinssen

    A last one: Thomas shows us how to become Son of Man, Child of the Human (106) - it is the closest to the father that we will ever come. Free of our 'garments', free from the yoke of Ego and Self, free from that hobble that limited our movement (23). Free from shame and fear. Free from our slaveowner the Ego. No rules, no plans, no paths. No worries, no virtues, no higher goals

    This sounds like it's going in an eastern "nihilist" / ascetic direction that I'd say Epicurus would strongly disapprove of, because Epicurus is clearly promoting something that he believes qualifies as "happiness." What did Thomas promote?

    Anti-everything, pretty much. It's funny but at this very point of writing this, this is slowly sinking in - and it's really not so very funny at all. I'll have to come back to this later on

  • mlinssen
    02 - Level Two
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    • February 6, 2026 at 11:23 AM
    • #23
    Quote from DaveT

    My own research on the peer reviewed research on the mythology of a historical Jesus, in addition to the questions of the accuracy of translations, I'm not even clear whether Thomas existed as a historical person.

    When we simply go by the evidence, there are no signs of any Jesus nor Thomas at all whatsoever. Thomas could be excused of course, whereas Jesus - but let's not wander off ;)

    If you're interested in some very interesting research, I recommend Markus Vinzent and David Trobisch, who follow the Patristic writings. If we take all the Christian dating at face value (since we don't have any evidence for the existence of these next two people either), all of thre New Testament must have become written in between 155-165 CE, when Justin Martyr certainly attests to no Epistles at all, and no Gospels at all, and 175 CE, when Irenaues' Adversus Haereses suddenly names almost all 27 books, even though he orders the Gospels by John, Luke, Matthew and Marc

    Yet, again, I consider these wholly off-topic for this thread

  • mlinssen
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    • February 6, 2026 at 12:05 PM
    • #24

    One last for now, on the positive things in Thomas or his teachings.

    This is my summary, in my words. Some exaggeration, a pinch of mean, as support for the notion that all this is a matter of life and death really, to Thomas

    We are dualised divided beings, separated, sick - and we need to Heal, become one again. For that we need to know our Selves, and we also must accept that this is the only Quest worthwhile: we are dead, all of us. Nothing else matters than this

    From chosen we must become they who have chosen themselves: choose that the proverbial good great fish is an illusion, that all stories are fables, mere opinions.

    Work on your fertile soil, don't be distracted by the Ego, continue to sow your seeds. Keep acting, remain in movement, and pursue

    Let me close with the story that Thomas paints when we ignore all his warnings:

    97. IS said: the kingdom of the [father] is comparable to a woman, she bears under a ja[r] full of flour. she walks [on a] beginning+, distant. the ear of the ja[r] broke, the flour poured after [her on] the beginning+. was she not knowing? did she not understand to toil? after that she split+ inward to her house, she placed the jar downward: she fell onto him empty

    Notice the ambivalence, and the homonyms: the usual word is path here, homonymous with beginning - and everything goes wrong in and on either.

    The woman indeed bears under the jar instead of embracing it. The ear malfunctions, oh my, disaster will ensue! The flour pours out, on the path of course. Did she not understand how to toil? Nothing comes for free, and in order to save your skin you must toil, hard, consistently. She approaches her house (and house is our illusion of our self, our inside, just as the World is our illusion of our outside) and evidently she will split there, after all this mayhem.

    And then, suddenly, only at the end, the dumb ignorant woman discovers that the jar is empty. Yup, that's what you get when you don't pay attention!

    There ;)

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