I'm back.....:-)

Susan so you were not in regular contact with other Stoics? Or were you using facebook or other online forums or following stoics on twitter, or podcasts, or some combination of the above?

Quote from Susan Hill

Lucretius is a slow slog for me

There is no doubt about this Susan. It took me years and many separate tries to make it through the full poem. Had I not listened to the Charlton Griffin version on audible (the Rolfe Humphries translation) I would never have made it. There are parts that are outstanding and well suited for motivational work, but those parts are surrounded by loads of relatively dry material from which they must be pulled and highlighted. Presumably that is why Lucretius himself started each of the six books with what might be considered to be an inspirational passage, before diving in to the details.

it's going to be up to us to devise ways to make best use of the good parts while reserving the majority for people who are really interested in the details.

Quote from bdws

I do think that the key for EP is to have a lively and POSITIVE social presence that allows for friendships to form and practices and 'slogans' to help folks simply and effectively implement EP in their lives on a daily basis.

I think this is definitely true. One of my favorite quotes from all aspects of the work of Thomas Jefferson, which I have combed over for Epicurean material, is his letter to Madison where he has the phrase "the earth belongs to the living." Word on a page or on a computer screen are worthless unless they are being used by living breathing people. The best book in the world is useless if it isn't read and discussed.

I don't think Epicurean philosophy can or should ever be organized too much on a "hierarchical" approach, but at the same time unless there is teamwork and cooperation it can never get anywhere against the hyper-organized opposition.

So networking is essential, and in a positive way as you say, but at the same time there have to be fairly clear boundaries so we know who "we" are.

We've had some recent back and forth on the subject of a "spiritual aspect" (to which you, Brett, will want to weigh in, hopefully after you've glanced at the "Reverence and Awe" thread ) and I think that gives us a good recent experience with figuring out where lines need to be drawn.

Personally, I have to draw my own line at a patient but firm understanding that the "absence of pain" material does not lead to asceticism and stoicism. I recognize that that is always going to be a subject that needs discussion, and I think that discussion is very valuable, but we have to recognize that there are those who for various reasons are simply not convertible over to a non-ascetic viewpoint, and at some point we have to limit that public debate so as to prevent demoralization of the whole project.

"Spirituality" has some of the same issues, but I see that as different because the term is nebulous, the texts are unclear, and there are many implications of the texts that do exist that require discussion to even see where the lines might be drawn. There is very little that is more central to Epicurean philosophy more so than the position that Nature has no Supernatural God over her, and that's a line that in my view can't even really be approached without losing "the essence" of what Epicurus was all about. But within that line there is wide opportunity for further development that I also think is key to a vigorous Epicurean movement. I see that as part of the big mix of issues involved in clarifying what is really being meant by "pleasure" and also proper application of the precise meaning of the elimination of the supernatural. Eliminating the supernatural is sort of like "absence of pain" - what matters is what DOES exist, and simply stating that nothing supernatural exists doesn't tell us anything more about what does exist than "absence of pain" tells us about the pleasure that a particular person is experiencing when pain is eliminated.

So those are brief comments on balancing being clear about who "we" are against the desire to "keep things positive."

But back to the main thread, I think each of us has to think about the likelihood that "finding others who think like we do" is only the start of the answer, and the larger part of the answer comes in generating the day to day activity of life in which we work together with those who are like us to achieve projects that we find pleasurable and which expand our circles of like-minded friends.

Maybe you are on your telephone? When you copy any selection on the computer, you get a popup that let's you "quote" it, then you can "paste" the quote by clicking the quote icon at the bottom right.

Alternately you can do a regular copy paste and then in a new post hit the "quote" icon, and that inputs a quote bubble into which you can paste the text.

it's definitely harder on a phone than on the computer, however it ought to be workable.

Quote from Susan Hill

Maybe I will let myself skip ahead a little to take a break from the physics.

I knew that would be an issue so in most cases I tried to steer the conversation more broadly, but only sometimes was I successful. However it's really hit and miss as to which ones had the best conversation because the topic itself isn't a good indication.

My goal is to go back and take these and reformat them and post on youtube, with a graphic of the text we are discussing, and hopefully when I do that I will do a much better job of indexing the content.\

But like so many other projects that's just a goal and I don't have a definite timeline.

Quote from Susan Hill

Quote from Cassius

Any comments on what you found effective in Stoic World?

I’m afraid I’m not much help there, Cassius. The thing that kept me most motivated in Stoicism was its excellent literature: Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, and then some good modern writers. In comparison, Lucretius is a slow slog for me... I’m in a bind with my pleasure being found mainly in the theology side of things. I’ve found some excellent essays, but am running out of reading material, and seem to be the sole would-be “practitioner”. Maybe Brett has some ideas.

Oh, I would include myself in the class of "looking for an Epicurean practice." I find myself reciting the Tetrapharmakos to myself to time hand washing, waiting in an elevator, etc. I also think mindfulness has a place in Epicureanism. What better way to practice paying attention to the present moment. I've been trying to compile an Epicurean Book of Days with 366 (to take into account keep years) sayings or excerpts with commentary. Not there yet... Or even close but a goal. Still working on the Menoikeus letter too!

As for the Stoics: marketing! They beat us to they punch!

FYI here's my new background on my work computer

Just to show a bit of my 'absent-minded philosopher' side in a slightly relevant anecdote:

Once when I lived in Iowa I found a bat hanging from the crown-moulding in my apartment bedroom, in a ninety-year-old building. I grabbed a chair and a towel, and some leather gloves, and deftly wrapped the bat in the towel. When I conducted him outside wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I neglected to leave the door open, and it locked. With neither phone nor keys, I was faced with the prospect of walking 17 blocks on a cold night to my sister's house.

I grumbled a bit at the way of the world–until I decided to distract myself by reciting under my breath the Principle Doctrines. By the time my walk was over, I found that I had been charmed by philosophy into an altogether different frame of mind!

I ought to be more diligent in my reading–there aren't many that I could recite now. I do carry a page or two of Lucretius' Latin in my mind, and would love to memorize more. There is an inexpressible value in having these things 'to hand'.

Quote from Susan Hill

. Is there a manual for the software somewhere? I might just be more limited on my phone.

Hmm that is a good question. The software company has a user forum at this location, but I will have to go looking for whether there is a basic "help" page: https://community.woltlab.com/

Susan I will see what I can find myself, but over the years I've worked with this software I've been very impressed with the people behind the program, but not so impressed with the documentation. I think their theory is that everything should be made as self-explanatory as possible for users, so they don't seem to have ready-made answers to frequently asked questions. So I am sad to say we may not find much and we probably need to just help each other as we can.

Also I don't think the software is actually more limited than on the phone. I think what's going on especially with pasting is that the operating systems copy different attributes, and that varies from system to system. It's frequently a problem on any platform that if you copy text from another program it tries to paste in the HTML attributes, so you're left to try to strip that yourself. That's probably why each of the major font controls in the toolbar has a "Remove" feature at the bottom.

Quote from Susan Hill

Quote from Don

Quote from Susan Hill

I apologize, Don. I didn’t mean to suggest that I was the only one with a desire to have Epicurean practices. I was thinking of things like practicing piety, worship, meditating on the gods, receiving “images” of them, and trying to emulate them.

Oh! No apologies necessary! I didn't want you to feel alone I continue to find your topics you mentioned there very interesting especially "meditating on the gods" and "trying to emulate them" and to tease out exactly what Epicurus, Philodemus, Lucretius, et al had to say in this area.

Quote from Susan Hill

I recently finished reading "The Significance of Worship and Prayer among the Epicureans" by George Depue Hadzsits. (Was it you who recommended that to me?? If not, have you read it?) It definitely takes things a little farther in suggesting that the pious can achieve a certain familiarity with the divine... I will go through it again and select some edifying excerpts for the Divinity forum.

It wasn't me. I just finished reading the Hadzsits article. Very intriguing. He does seem to provide more concrete motivations for the ancient Epicureans to take part in the standard rituals and prayers of the time. I think I'll have to read it again to get all the information from it. I get the impression that the gods - Venus, Athena, etc - could literally embody individual qualities of the Epicurean gods and so be an object of prayer and worship. That would lead one to emulate and embody those qualities oneself on a deeper personal level. No benefit flowed from the gods, but that didn't preclude gaining benefit from the practice. Is that part of what you got? Or am I misunderstanding?