Exchange On Knowledge From January 2020

Oscar, the objective/ subjective issue-- yes, there is a reality independent of us-- _but_-- we can only perceive it subjectively, through our senses, feelings, and intuitions. We have no way of perceiving reality without filtering it through our subjectivity-- it's literally impossible. Even if you are using an instrument, you must still use your eyes, ears, or I guess Braille, touch, to obtain the readout.

This is really, really important to get a handle on for anyone studying this philosophy, because most philosophies consider what they call "objective" reality to be somehow better or more "real" than subjective. But all we can perceive is through subjective experience. Epicurus judged that to be real and sufficient evidence of how things are, and I do as well.

In some cases, as when we are doing science, we will obtain measurements which are highly replicated by different labs/ researchers, and we can rely on this data as likely accurate. However, that replication does not remove the fact that subjective perception was used.

Oscar, I am confused. How do you propose we can have "knowledge" that isn't subjective? We know what is real through our subjective senses, feelings, and prolepses. Sometimes by comparing notes. No other way to know anything.

Although sense organs and instruments can malfunction, as in hallucinations, we use multiple senses and reconcile the information from all of them together-- plus we can talk to each other.

Ah, ok Oscar-- this is actually my area, because of my career, both the MD and PhD in medicine. What you are talking about is levels of evidence, from anecdotal (lowest level) to highly replicated evidence from double blinded, controlled prospective trials, which attempt to remove confounders and determine if two events are definitely associated, then if the association is causal. The kind of thing I was addressing with Hiram in the links he gave for mindfulness.

However, this information was still obtained subjectively. We "know" it only because we have replicated it stringently-- it's not a different type of knowledge.

A baby who drops objects off the high chair over and over is doing the same thing. That's their rudimentary physics experimenting.

Reason is involved in processing the subjective data, for sure. But reason isn't objective either, because it doesn't bring _new_ data in. It's a tool to use when processing data. And it has its own glitches.

I still maintain that nothing about knowledge requires removal of the subjective.

I understand Epicurus' dogmatism and the reasons for it. For myself, the philosophy of reality is more compatible with pragmatism, which is very different from skepticism. It allows me as a scientist to be open to new data but still accept facts-- I forget who said it, maybe Feynman, but facts are knowledge so well replicated that it would be "perverse to say otherwise." Practically speaking, it's close enough to dogmatism that I'm not bothered by dogmatism. Whereas skepticism annoys the stew out of me. 😆

I would say knowledge is awareness of information (obtained through senses, feelings and/or prolepses) which a person feels sufficiently sure about to say "I know x thing". "Sufficiently" often in a subjective way. But in science, according more to accepted requirements for independent replication.

I read quite some time ago about a "sense of knowing " which could be triggered by stimulating the brain directly. Without any content-- the person would be suddenly struck with a feeling of certainty but not knowing about what! Very weird. I'll see if I can find it. My intuition is that there _is_ a sensation of knowing, or at least I myself experience that (although always with a topic).

I think of it as a prolepsis. Some kind of pattern recognition in the brain that kicks off when a piece of information has satisfied whatever criteria the pattern needs. And of course unless you are going by statistical rules, this will vary from one person to another. Some people require a lot more input before they feel "sure" and others leap right to it.

Right now, I "know" the street that is always outside my condo is there. This is my "fast brain", also sometimes called system 1-- I'm not thinking hard about it, but if someone said "hey, do you think the street is still there?" I would immediately say "what? Of course it is" and have no feeling of doubt. If you pushed me on it, I'd eventually say ok, whatever, maybe a silent bulldozer just came by and removed it-- I'm not looking at it, after all. But that's so far-fetched as to not be worth bothering with. I _know_, pragmatically speaking, and that's good enough.

Words are easier to define for me like that, with examples, in context. I think everyone here knows what knowledge means, lol. I would avoid getting wrapped up in one of those definition things that goes into recursive absurdity.

I think it was mentioned in this book, which I no longer have, so I can't say anything about the quality of the research. But I sure have had the feeling of knowing. http://www.rburton.com/_i_on_being_ce…e_not_63166.htm