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Favorite Translation of Lucretius

  • Eikadistes
  • January 24, 2023 at 2:38 PM
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  • Joshua
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    • January 26, 2023 at 6:56 PM
    • #21

    Very much right, Pacatus!

    The Homeric Question will never have a satisfactory answer, but the growing consensus suggests an intimate relationship between Iliad, Odyssey, and the oral tradition of bardic singers from which those two great works arose. The Odyssey actually describes two such singers. People are capable of incredible memorization when the put their minds to it. I frequently encounter people--and quite ordinary people at that--who have hours and hours of song lyrics tucked away in their minds.

    Songs are somewhat easier to remember than prose. They have a clear structure, sometimes a rhyme scheme, and very often a lot of repitition, whether in the lyrics of the chorus or in the melody if the verses.

    Homer's epics were also meant to be remembered , in whole or in part, and to be performed by singers at court or in public. To help them remember, the epic verse has structure, in the form of its dactylic hexameter, and it has repitition. Most of the repitition is in the form of Homeric epithets; instead of saying Achilles, he writes "swift footed Achilles". Each main character has their epithets. "Lord of men Agamemnon", "Hector tamer of horses", and so on. The really central characters will have several epithets. This is important because the chosen epithet must match the hexameter of the line he plugs it into.

    There may have been some improvisation involved in the very early period. A singer who knew the story of the war and also knew a number of stock phrases and epithets might well decide to play to his audience. All of these characters came from Greek places. If a singer was entertaining in Ithaca, he might choose to lay it on thick for the locals when he was describing the exploits of Odysseus, their native son.

    All of this had changed by Lucretius' time. He wasn't writing a poem to be recited aloud to the song of the lyre. He was writing a philosophical poem, meant to be read deeply and repeatedly until his audience really got the point. He still uses hexameter, and he uses epithets for form's sake--"mother of the Aeneadins", "Mars mighty in battle"--but he's not writing a story about the adventures of men and gods. He doesn't expect his verses to be sung at lavish parties. He describes himself working late at night, by lamp or candle light, penning his lines. The process is long, laborious, and sometimes tedious. The hexameter is difficult and unyielding. If he can't make this one line work, he'll have to backtrack, and rework the preceding 3 or 4 lines. It is a devilishly intricate art, sometimes more like playing chess than writing--you have to be able to see a few moves ahead, or you write yourself into a corner.

    So why the repitition? Here are some reasons.

    • He thought it was exceptionally good. The yellow honey on the rim of the wormwood cup is one example of this. Those lines form basically his mission statement for the whole poem, and may be worth repeating to reinforce the point. "I know this stuff may not be easy to hear, but it really will help you. Just hear me out."
    • He was writing on the same subject and it was easier to repeat the same lines. Virgil is guilty of this--there are lines from his Georgics that are repeated in his Aeneid. Or Norman DeWitt, who wrote several articles before he wrote his book. It's easier to adapt the articles into the book than to rewrite those sections.
    • The repitition came long after he was dead. This is evidently true of the lines on the gods in Book I. It is thought that those lines were copied into the margin of Book I by a scribe from later in the poem. The scribes who followed him then moved those lines into the body of the text. Now we read them there, where the poet never intended to put them.

    It may not be possible to know all of the answers.

  • Pacatus
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    • January 26, 2023 at 7:15 PM
    • #22

    Thank you, Joshua!

    Quote from Joshua

    The hexameter is difficult and unyielding. If he can't make this one line work, he'll have to backtrack, and rework the preceding 3 or 4 lines. It is a devilishly intricate art, sometimes more like playing chess than writing--you have to be able to see a few moves ahead, or you write yourself into a corner.

    I suspect that Lucretius was more fastidious about his hexameter than Stallings is with her “fourteeners”: her rhythm is often awkward, even though she is consistent with the final iambic foot. (I think of Robert Frost, who wiggled his blank verse sometimes – but in order, it seemed, to make it read more smoothly without using the apostrophe for elision.)

    I get myself into a corner all the time -- in chess, too! :P

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Joshua
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    • June 17, 2023 at 12:08 AM
    • #23

    It occurred to me today that it would be possible to use some basic statistical analysis to evaluate which translations are, on the whole, more literal and which are idiosyncratic.

    You might, for example, take the Latin text of Book I. Go through it and isolate all of the root nouns and verbs (for simplicity's sake), and put them in the first column of a spreadsheet under "Latin". For the second column, Perseus; whichever definition the Perseus Project suggests for that Latin word goes in column 2. Then Munro. Then a column for numerically representing the deviation from the mode; 0 for using the mode word, 1 for using an idiosyncratic word, 2 for not translating the word at all. Then Bailey and deviation, and so forth.

    Then add up the deviation for each column and divide by the number of words. This value is that translator's eccentricity. A higher eccentricity for that data set suggests a less literal translator. Because Perseus cites dictionary entries including multiple translations, it will not count toward modality, nor be included in the final tally.

    LatinPerseusLeonardEccentricity1743EccentricityBaileyEccentricityMunroEccentricity
    AeneadumAeneasRome0Rome0Aeneas0Aeneas0
    GenetrixMotherMother0Mother0Mother0Mother0
    HominumManMan0Man0Man0Man0
    DivomqueGodGod0God0God0God0
    VoluptasDelightDelight0Delight0Joy1Darling1
    AlmaNourishingDear-Sweet-Life-giver-increase-giving-
    Caeliheaven-2heaven0heaven0heaven0
    Signasignstar-sign-star-sign-
    Mareseamain1sea0sea0sea0


    Eccentricity = (X/7) where X equals the number of words for which there is a mode. Larger numbers signify more consistent outliers.

    1743: 0

    Bailey: 0.14

    Munro: 0.14

    Leonard: 0.43

    This data set is obviously so small as to be meaningless, and the project is probably not worth doing with a proper set: say, the whole of book one. It could prove interesting to sample passages throughout the book, or perhaps from the beginning of each book.

    ...but I'm not going to do it!

  • Cassius
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    • June 17, 2023 at 2:13 AM
    • #24

    It is a great idea though, and it helps to post ideas, because at some point someone may have the time and resources to do it, or they think up a better way. So thanks for posting this!

  • Don
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    • June 17, 2023 at 7:16 AM
    • #25

    See, now this is an application where AI would come in handy. This sounds like some academic master's thesis or something. Well done, Joshua. This would be fascinating.

  • Cassius
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    • June 17, 2023 at 7:27 AM
    • #26

    Just so I understand your message, would not Leonard and 1743 in line 1 get a "1" because they used "Rome" and not the literal "Aeneas" or "Aeneads"?

  • Cassius
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    • June 17, 2023 at 7:31 AM
    • #27

    Also as to voluptas, would not the most literal be "pleasure," as in Latin there is no more basic word for pleasure than voluptas, correct?

    I recall that we have discussed that before and they delight sounds better to us, but for strict literalness "pleasure" would be more strictly plain?

    Latin Definition for: voluptas, voluptatis (ID: 39082) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict


    I do think that we could pick some super important passages and make such a project both useful and manageable.

    And a list of super important passages would be a great exercise in itself.

    See, for example:

    humanacomparison.jpg []

  • Joshua
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    • June 17, 2023 at 8:44 AM
    • #28
    Quote

    Just so I understand your message, would not Leonard and 1743 in line 1 get a "1" because they used "Rome" and not the literal "Aeneas" or "Aeneads"?

    Taking only these four translators, two of them went one way and two of them another making it a wash. Actually that row should be thrown out from the final calculation; no mode word.

    Voluptas certainly does have pleasure as one of it's meanings. It occurs to me now that this analysis doesn't really test for "literality", but instead tests for "eccentricity". Just because 3 others translate a word one way and one translates it another way, that doesn't mean that the eccentric word choice is less literal. It could be more literal!

  • Kalosyni
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    • June 17, 2023 at 11:02 AM
    • #29
    Quote from Joshua

    It occurred to me today that it would be possible to use some basic statistical analysis to evaluate which translations are, on the whole, more literal and which are idiosyncratic.

    Joshua maybe you saw this thread?

    Post

    Paper: Comparisons of Six English Translations of Lucretius De Rerum Natura

    I just found this very detailed paper:

    https://blogs.helsinki.fi/dh-project-cou…e-rerum-natura/
    Kalosyni
    May 17, 2023 at 8:54 AM
  • Joshua
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    • June 17, 2023 at 11:21 AM
    • #30

    A statistical analysis of Lucretius' meter:

    Hexameter | Lucretius

  • Cassius August 18, 2023 at 6:54 PM

    Moved the thread from forum Lucretius to forum Versions of the Text of Lucretius.
  • Kalosyni
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    • June 18, 2024 at 2:57 PM
    • #31

    I've now listened to an audio recording of Humphries' translation a number of times (by Charlton Griffin), and have gotten much more acclimated to it. (Perhaps it is now my favorite version). In Book 2 at the section which starts out: "Much poorer men are every bit as happy,", and a few lines from there in the audio version I thought I heard him say "beaver's heat departs no sooner..." but just today when reading the printed version I see it actually says "fever's heat". (Just some idle musings of summertime, and which was an lol !)

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