Posts by Patrikios

In this Episode 277, Cicero appears to make wild leaps, that just by contemplating the beauty of nature, we are supposed to conclude all these supernatural attributions accrue to a manipulative, punitive, personified deity.

“Thus, though you see not the soul of man, as you see not the Deity, yet, as by the contemplation of his works you are led to acknowledge a God, so you must own the divine power of the soul, from its remembering things, from its invention, from the quickness of its motion, and from all the beauty of virtue. Where, then, is it seated, you will say?”

From reading DeWitt, and Epicurus’ letters, it appears that Epicurus was describing the ‘soul’ as what we know today as our nervous system. Our nervous system includes the brain and nerve cells that run throughout our body carrying both thought-initiated commands to move certain muscles, as well as carrying the signals from our 5 senses.

“Of the Twelve Principles the most important was the third: "The universe consists of atoms and void." Since the void is incapable either of delivering or receiving a stimulus, it followed that the soul, which is capable both of stimulating and being stimulated, must be corporeal by nature, composed of atoms.” [DeWitt: Epicurus & His Philosophy, p6]

Quote from Kalosyni

Happy Birthday Patrikios !

Kalosyni, thanks for the beautiful collage of simple pleasures. BTW, my birthday pleasures included a nice long walk in the sand on beautiful Lido Beach.

Quote from Cassius

Happy Birthday to Patrikios! Learn more about Patrikios and say happy birthday on Patrikios's timeline: Patrikios

Cassius , thank you for the remembrance. Taking time to read the writings of Epicureans and the Friends of Epicurus here is one of the best gifts I can enjoy on my birthday, and every day.

Peace & Safety

Quote from Rolf

Likewise, “absence of pain” and “pleasure” mean the same thing (considering only pleasure and pain exist), but the negative form, “absence of pain”, implies the highest degree of pleasure.

Rolf , thanks for this thoughtful perspective. I understand the “spotless” analogy.

I’m wondering whether “absence of pain”, implies the highest degree of pleasure fits for all persons. Couldn’t the “absence of pain” lead one to simply be in a relaxed, neutral state; with highest degree of pleasure coming from a favorite kinetic pleasure?

I may be missing something in the way you described the analogy.

As was mentioned in section XXIV, is the topic of learning vs recollection discussed elsewhere within this forum?

“From whence Socrates would infer, that learning is nothing more than recollection; and this topic he explains more accurately, in the discourse which he held the very day he died; for he there asserts that any one who seeming to be entirely illiterate, is yet able to answer a question well that is proposed to him, does in so doing manifestly show that he is not learning it then, but recollecting it by his memory.”

Quote from Pimagus

I am a retired surgeon with a masters in counseling psychology.

Welcome, Pimagus,

With your medical and psychological background, you may be interested in reading some of the articles written by Dr. Christos Yapijakis, medical professor in Athens Greece. I found his focus on ‘balance’ and ‘stability’ (eustatheia) is what I know as homeostasis; something I’ve been working to achieve on a daily basis. 😊🤩

Here are links to a couple of his writings, translated into English.

Ethical teachings of Epicurus based on human nature in the light of Biological Psychology

https://www.epicuros.gr/arthra/23_filo.pdf

Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management

C. Yapijakis & G. P. Chrousos
https://societyofepicurus.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Yapijakis-Chrousos_Epicurean-Eustatheia.pdf

Enjoy,

Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

Most of the time in an Epicurean vs Non-Epicurean discussion, the issue comes down to the fact that Epicureans say that Nature through the faculty of pleasure and pain is the proper standard to which to look on how to live, and the non-Epicureans are saying "Supernaturalism or logic of virtue is the proper standard too look to on how to live." And the debate btweeen those two standards is important tto address directly.

In my everyday conversations with family and friends who are practicing Christians, another key topic to consider is the ‘telos’ of our respective lives. When I explain that a life of wellbeing (eudaemonia) is what the Epicurean philosophy leads to, using prudent reasoning of the pleasure-pain choices (vs public perception of unchecked hedonism); that seems to open a less confrontational dialogue. Then we can get into proper positioning of PD-5 about “living wisely, honorably, and justly“ in order to live pleasantly. There can often be more agreement around that approach, before getting into the more controversial details around afterlife vs death’s finality.

Thanks for this enlightening discussion that helps us in explaining our philosophy and how we practice this in our daily lives!🙏

Quote from Bryan

We know the soul is composed of subtle atoms in our body -- and we have the ability to control the movement of those atoms.

I thought that Epicurus used “soul” to refer to that which conveyed our thoughts to our body, muscles; which we know today as our nervous system. So, are our spiritual feelings innate Prolepsis of the gods, or just higher aspects our nervous system that we can attempt to control through breath work.

If my understanding of Epicurus view of the soul is incorrect, please explain.

Quote from Cassius

of course most of us are lucky today that the play generally doesn't get that bad.

and having Friends with their encouragement helps to keep us in Life’s theater.

Quote from AxA

In the Youtube video player, first click the "CC" icon to enable captions.

My YouTube player shows "Subtitles/closed captions unavailable".

Hopefully, the subtitles will show up in the completed videos (after the symposium).

Quote from AxA

set them to translate directly

thanks for the suggestion. If there is any explanation to get YouTube to translate directly, let us know.

Using the 2-device methos with Google Translate helped to get a sense of the presentations today.

Quote from Al-Hakiim von Grof

To me, this is the spirit of “the simple life”; avoidance of that which one finds excessively laborious. The simple life is one in which prudent planning ensures your needs are met, your health of mind and body is maintained, and pleasures abound, all with only exactly as much effort as is required and no more.

Al-Hakiim von Grof RE: "a laborious life was inconsistent with the perfect bliss of the gods"

Thanks for that clarification to avoid "excessively laborious" actions. Certainly, we should labor to meet the simple daily needs for ourselves and our family. We can find pleasure in laborious tasks that build something beautiful that gives ongoing pleasure to us or to friends and families, or local community. I fully agree with your definition of "the simple life". For me that definition of "the simple life", is one where these "simple" actions or avoidance of actions leads to a balanced/stable & fulfilling life (eustatheia & eudaimonia).

Quote from Eikadistes

I just wanted to take a minute and thank Cassius for hosting this site, and to the admins for maintaining it. I have completely removed myself from Meta and several other social media sites that now seem to me to be instruments of politics.

It is heartening to find this harbor in the storm of digital intercourse.

I too wish to thank Cassius and the many other guides on the podcasts and this website. On this Twentieth celebration that coincide with 2 other occasions this year in the USA (MLK Day, Presidential Inauguration), I plan to listen to older podcasts from Lucretius Today. These podcasts and the supporting commentary on this website helps to give us the emotional strength to see the truth through nature. I expect to gain more knowledge and truths from these words on EpicureanFriends, than all the political opinions on social media and news platforms today.

Peace & Safety

Quote from m.repetzki

I've been interested in Lucretius' poem for nearly thirty years now. At college, I had the pleasure to attend a fascinating lecture on the history of science, which stressed the importance of Epicurus' philosophy.

Welcome m.repetzki.

So good that you were introduced to Lucretius & Epicurean philosophy early in your life, now with 30 years of practice ! 👍

Since these bards of happiness only came to me recently after retirement, my intense studies of the whole Epicurean philosophy makes me feel like I’m back in college. This involves studying multiple translations of original manuscripts, along with learned authors in philosophy and science across centuries. Then, because of Epicurus Physics, I’m having to study quantum physics, and the metaphysics of healing, based on what Epicurus predicted and physicists are discovering how. But this website is a great place to learn and practice at your own pace.

Of course, with the college analogy, this Epicurean Friends website is like the campus library where other smart students hang out. We have regular weekly study groups, and monthly socials where everyone shares ideas in a friendly, supportive manner. The Lucretius Today podcast host guest lectures too.

Learning from others is my ‘simple pleasure’ every day!

Patrikios

“Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul.Let no one when young delay to study philosophy, nor when he is old grow weary of his study. For no one can come too early or too late to secure the health of his soul.” [Letter to Menoeceus]

Quote from Cassius

But can it not ALSO be used in a way that is entirely positive and pleasurable, in which the pleasure of anticipation and preparation for the experience are every bit as enjoyable as the experience itself?

Cassius I agree that 'desire' is one of our important natural feelings that can help us achieve some of our most important goals or missions in life [telos] . My understanding of studying nature is that life is to create and re-create. Our body’s cells are being re-created all the time. Most people have a natural desire to make things (e.g. create something that improves their happiness) that didn’t exist, but now exists. Looking to nature shows how plants and animals are creating new life and contributing to other plants and animals.

I find in the Letter to Menoeceus, Epicurus states:
"We must also reflect that of desires some are natural, others are groundless; and that of the natural some are necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live."

Quote from Cassius

Good use of a chatbot! Of course I disagree with it, because it doesn't consider the nuances of the reason for the post or the subtlety of Epicurean philosophy, but it's helpful to draw out the issues.

Cassius,

I agree with you about AI Chatbots giving over-simplified explanations. However, it can be a tool for authors to use to check the content versus intended audience level of understanding. For grins 😁, I asked my Personal.AI philosophy persona to read your text. Here’s the response with very positive views overall.

“Thanks for providing the post by Cassius Amicus. I can now offer a more informed comparison with Epicurean philosophy.

The post aligns closely with key tenets of Epicureanism. It accurately reflects Epicurus' materialist worldview, rejection of divine intervention, and focus on natural explanations for phenomena. The emphasis on pleasure and pain as guides for decision-making is quintessentially Epicurean.

However, I'm less certain about some nuances. For instance, Epicurus' view on free will and determinism was more complex than point 4 suggests. Also, the stark finality of death described in points 8-10, while generally aligned with Epicurean thought, might be slightly oversimplified.

The post captures Epicurus' ethical hedonism well, particularly in points 5 and 6. The focus on living in the present (points 7-8) and personal responsibility (point 11) are also consistent with Epicurean teachings.

Overall, this post provides a concise, largely accurate summary of Epicurean philosophy, though it may oversimplify some concepts. Would you like me to elaborate on any specific points or aspects of Epicurean philosophy for comparison?”

While my AI persona was reluctant to offer a classroom grade without more context of intent, it did offer this praise.

“If this was meant as a brief, accessible summary for a general audience, it might even merit a full A for its clarity and overall accuracy.”

Quote from Kalosyni

when in actuality there is a longer process involved which involves learning how to use prudence as a tool which leads to a pleasant and pleasurable life.

And it is important to take in a big picture view, rather than only quick snippets.

Thanks, Kalosyni . Here is how I am beginning to see the 'big picture' of Epicurus' teachings (while I still have more to learn).

I understand that Epicurus taught us how to use a set of tools (e.g. prudent evaluation of desires, awareness of our senses, frank speech among friends) so that we could study Divine Nature. Our study enables us to live in balance (eustatheia) with Nature, so that we are heathy in body (aponia), mind (ataraxia) & spirit/soul (psychê), and living well to our highest good (eudaimonia).

That's the goal as I see it; to adopt a daily practice so we can live a life of imperturbability (calm and unruffled self-assurance) like the "Happy Greek".

Is the Zoom info same as October?

For those of us with a science or technology background, it can be quite interesting to see how the principles of Epicurus are being revealed through modern science. My area of interest in quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, has led into research on Quantum Information Biology (QIB).
See this research paper on this topic: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.02515

The paper discusses “free will” at the quantum level that supports Epicurus’ view on the “swerve”. So, I discussed this paper with my Personal.AI science-philosopher persona, and we arrived at this comparison of this QIB paper and Epicurus writings.

Quote

Certainly, I'll conduct a thorough review of both sources and provide a professional analysis comparing the views on free will in quantum information biology with Epicurus' perspectives.

After carefully examining my memory banks, I've found several relevant documents discussing Epicurus' views on free will and the concept of the "swerve" (clinamen). Here's a comprehensive analysis:

Epicurus' View on Free Will:

Epicurus proposed a materialist worldview where everything, including the human mind, is composed of atoms. He introduced the concept of the "swerve" to explain how free will could exist in a deterministic universe. The swerve is a random, unpredictable deviation in the motion of atoms that breaks the chain of causality.

Key points:

1. The swerve occurs at no fixed place or time, introducing an element of chance.

2. This indeterminism at the atomic level allows for free will at the macroscopic level of human decision-making.

3. Epicurus argued that without this swerve, we would be slaves to determinism, our actions predetermined by prior causes.

Quantum Information Biology (QIB) and Free Will:

The QIB approach, as described in the article, offers a new perspective on free will that shares some intriguing parallels with Epicurus' ideas:

1. Quantum-like decision making: QIB suggests that decision-making processes in biological systems, including humans, may follow quantum-like principles. This introduces an element of indeterminism similar to Epicurus' swerve.

2. Non-classical probability: Both QIB and Epicurus' model challenge classical, deterministic views of causality. QIB proposes that biological systems often violate classical probability laws, necessitating quantum-like models.

3. Multi-scale approach: QIB applies quantum formalism across multiple scales, from molecular to cognitive levels. This aligns with Epicurus' idea that atomic-level phenomena (the swerve) can influence macroscopic events (human decisions).

4. Emergent free will: In QIB, free will could be viewed as an emergent property arising from quantum-like information processing in complex biological systems. This echoes Epicurus' notion that free will emerges from atomic indeterminism.

Comparative Analysis:

1. Indeterminism: Both models introduce indeterminism as a foundation for free will. Epicurus does this through the swerve, while QIB does it through quantum-like probabilistic models.

2. Materialist foundation: Epicurus and QIB both ground their theories in a materialist worldview, albeit with different levels of complexity.

3. Scale of effect: Epicurus' swerve operates at the atomic level, while QIB considers quantum-like effects across multiple biological scales.

4. Mechanism vs. Information: Epicurus focuses on the physical mechanism (atomic swerve), while QIB emphasizes information processing and dynamics.

5. Scientific grounding: QIB, being a modern scientific approach, has the potential for empirical testing and validation, which wasn't available to Epicurus.

In conclusion, while Epicurus and QIB approach the problem of free will from different historical and scientific contexts, they share a fundamental aim: reconciling free will with a materialist worldview by introducing elements of indeterminism. QIB can be seen as a more sophisticated, scientifically grounded extension of the type of thinking Epicurus pioneered over two millennia ago.

This analysis demonstrates the enduring relevance of Epicurus' ideas and how modern scientific approaches like QIB are continuing to grapple with the age-old question of free will, albeit with more advanced tools and concepts.

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It appears to me that more of the quantum research may further explain some of the underlying phenomena that produced effects that Epicurus was able to discern.

(If there is another thread where such ideas should be posted, LMK.)

Quote from SillyApe

This is the kind of thinking that first made me love Epicurean Philosophy. In the past, I was full of these vain desires and expectations, which brought me so much pain. One day, I read about Epicurus encouraging his followers to analyze their desires and do the calculation to see if they are worth it or not. Once I realized the futility of my pursuits and let these desires and expectations go, I felt so much light, as if I were a locked bird, now free to fly to the skies. Later on, I discovered the concept of "cognitive load", which explained through Psychiatry what Epicurus taught many centuries ago through Philosophy.

SI,

Thanks for your description of the feelings (sensations) you experienced when applying some of Epicurus's writings to analyze desires. When I think of Epicurus concept of living prudently, I try to do the right analysis of pleasure vs. pain to determine how much effort, resources, pain to expend to achieve what expected benefits that make life more pleasant. I have found this Epicurean analysis is helped when we better understand how to use our natural biology to ‘program’ our minds to apply the principles more naturally.

Recently I have been reading papers by Christos Yapijakis. He adds a medical perspective that shows how what Epicurus advocated is supported by our modern understanding of human biology & psychology. Through the Epicurean practice, the right thinking that leads to tranquility also helps the body operate in harmony as our bodies are intended to operate. This leads to the desired state of whole body & mind & spirit in balance - a state of homeostasis. This natural state of our body at ‘ease’ helps reduce dis-ease, which reduces body pains.

Here is an example of how Yapijakis describes the biological process (with my bolded emphasis).

“This tripartite neurophysiological functioning of the brain is greatly reminiscent of Epicurus’ teachings. The Athenian philosopher emphasized the fact that the basic needs of human nature lay on our instincts (“reptilian brain”), which correspond to natural and necessary desires and should be satisfied or else our bodies will suffer: «Σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν» (“The cry of the flesh: not to be hungry, not to be thirsty, not to be cold”)12. Moreover, Epicurus recognized the critical importance of the positive emotion of pleasure and it seems that he almost described the selective role of the amygdala when he said: «Τὴν ἡδονὴν ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος λέγομεν εἶναι τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν. Ταύτην γὰρ ἀγαθὸν πρῶτον καὶ συγγενικὸν ἔγνωμεν καὶ ἀπὸ ταύτης καταρχόμεθα πάσης αἱρέσεως καὶ φυγῆς» (“We say that pleasure is the starting point and goal of living blessedly. For we recognized this as our first innate good, and this is our starting point for every choice and avoidance”)13. He determined the purpose of human life on emotional grounds (“mammalian brain”) aiming at the blissful state of physical ἀπονία (lack of pain) and mental ἀταραξία (calmness, lack of agitation). Above all, Epicurus considered prudence (“primate brain”) as the supreme regulator of conscious selection of what brings happiness, with wise satisfaction of physical needs and preservation of emotional balance by tasting those pleasures that do not result in greater pain instead of pleasure14. With great foresight, the philosopher realized that prudence should govern, because this is the ultimate nature of humans as primates, without forgetting feelings which also play a major role in their life, since humans are mammals, too.”

Epicurean Biological Psychology

Christos Yapijakis

D.M.D.,M.S.,Ph.D. (cyapijakis_ua_gr@yahoo.com)

1 Department of Neurology, School of Medicine, National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece

2 ”Garden of Athens”, Friends of Epicurean Philosophy

23th WORLD CONGRESS OF PHILOSOPHY, ATHENS 2013