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So these two things motivate action:
discontent (physical pain or mental discontent/subtle fear)
curiousity (wanting to try out a physical sensation or learn something)Any others?
Kalosyni , thanks for an interesting question!
Another source to motivate action is our perceived need to react to something received by our senses (e.g. sudden flash, loud noise, unpleasant odor, request from a friend, etc.).
I see the biggest difference (virtue or pleasure as the core of eudaimonia/life goal) in that eudaimonia, the good self or inner spirit, is defined by the Stoics as "doing good" while Epicureans define it as "experiencing good."
Thanks for sharing that insight on “doing good” vs “experiencing good”. I see the Stoic focus on virtue more for the external effect; how this virtuous act appears to others. While I see the Epicurean focus more on experiencing pleasure while engaged in a virtuous activity, and prudently considering whether this ‘virtuous’ activity brings pain or pleasure to others.
Does this view follow from your analysis?
If there's not already one, there almost certainly will be. And that's going to put the ball in the court of those who think that the available Epicurus-bots aren't the place to get info about Epicurus
Who wants a GPT Epicurus?
Cassius if you would like interacting with a preliminary Epicurus-AI, I have built a philosophy persona (amongst a few other personas, e.g. Golf Coach) that has over 400 documents and articles on philosophy, mostly related to epicurean thoughts. I have been using Personal.AI as the tool to create a Personal/Small Language Model dataset. This is the expected usage for many businesses to build AI queries around limited, specialized data sets of reliable info.
I use it to help me remember previously reviewed info, and carry out interesting comparisons of different authors viewpoints. I use the web version to manage the input of info, and find the mobile app version to be my pocket guide to ask WWES (What Would Epicurus Say), when faced with interesting choice or avoidance situations.
LMK if you ever want to build an AI query screen with access to only the knowledge contained on EpicureanFriends.com or other similarly managed epicurean websites. Then you could offer the public a way to ‘talk to’ Epicurus. 😀
I don't have time right now, but it might be instructive to read the first few letters in Book 1:The Project Gutenberg eBook of THE WORKS OF HORACE, by C. Smart, A.M..
to see what Epicurean themes - if any - jump out and whether Horace is providing his own take on the philosophy (whether or not he's a pig in the herd) or not.
Thanks for the link to the Works of #Horace.
In the 2nd Epistle, To Lollius, I interpret that statement as the need to apply prudence. Epicurus taught that wisdom lies in choosing pleasures that maintain long-term well-being rather than short-term gratification, and that may incur some short-term pain.
I found some other interesting Epicurean references in the Letters.
In Epistle 4 To Albius Tibullus, it appears that Horace is practicing the Epicurean tradition of suaveness in praising the good features of his critic. Then Horace uses frank speech to encourage Albius to reconsider the life Horace is living as “a hog of Epicurus' herd” as not such a bad life.
Albius, thou candid critic of my discourses, what shall I say you are now doing in the country about Pedum? Writing what may excel the works of Cassius Parmensis; or sauntering silently among the healthful groves, concerning yourself about every thing worthy a wise and good man? You were not a body without a mind. The gods have given you a beautiful form, the gods [have given] you wealth, and the faculty of enjoying it.
…
When you have a mind to laugh, you shall see me fat and sleek with good keeping, a hog of Epicurus' herd.
Also, in Epistle 18 To Lollius, Horace appears to be explaining how to achieve ataraxia and a life of wellbeing.
In every thing you must read and consult the learned, by what means you may be enabled to pass your life in an agreeable manner: that insatiable desire may not agitate and torment you, nor the fear and hope of things that are but of little account: whether learning acquires virtue, or nature bestows it? What lessens cares, what may endear you to yourself? What perfectly renders the temper calm; honor or enticing lucre, or a secret passage and the path of an unnoticed life?
I find this question about what "renders the temper calm" aligns with
Vatican Saying 79: "The man who is serene causes no disturbance to himself or to another."
This connects to Epicurus' fundamental teaching about ataraxia (tranquility of mind).
One of the questions from Cicero that we address specifically is this one:
Grant that to be in pain is the greatest evil; whosoever, then, has proceeded so far as not to be in pain, is he, therefore, in immediate possession of the greatest good?
.
From the context I think it is pretty clear that what Cicero is saying is something like "OK I will spot you that being in pain is the greatest evil, but I still challenge you on this -- just because I remove that evil, that does mean that i am in immediate possession of the greatest good (pleasure)?"
So that challenge demands an answer, and I think the most persuasive answer has to include another visual analogy rather than just the assertion that "absence of pain is the greatest pleasure" or "when one has no pain one has no further need for pleasure."
from reading Christos Yapijakaris I find this.
“The Epicureans called εὐστάθεια (eustatheia, “stability”) the psychosomatic balance (τὸ τῆς σαρ- κὸς καὶ ψυχῆς εὐσταθὲς κατάστημα), which today we call homeostasis (ὁμοιόστασις), and considered it the basis of true happiness. They recognized empirically the stress that disturbed psychosomatic homeostasis as an agitation of the psyche or a painful feeling of the body and used a number of mental and affective techniques (including the tetrapharmakos) to manage stress at its onset, so that it does not evolve into the particularly troublesome conditions of anxiety and/or depression, which may become chronic psychosomatic disorders with significant social consequences.”
[Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management, C. Yapijakis & G. P. Chrousos]
From my other reading on homeostasis, I summarize these findings thusly.
When we achieve ataraxia (mental tranquility), we prevent the release of:
- Cortisol (stress hormone)
- Excessive adrenaline and noradrenaline
- Pro-inflammatory cytokines
- Excess glutamate (which can cause neurotoxicity)
Similarly, when we maintain aponia (absence of physical pain), we reduce:
- Substance P (pain neurotransmitter)
- Inflammatory prostaglandins
- Stress-induced histamine release
- Excessive oxidative compounds
Yapijakis demonstrates that these biochemical reductions through ataraxia and aponia lead to:
1. Better immune system function
2. Reduced cellular aging
3. Improved cardiovascular health
4. Enhanced neuroplasticity
The modern medical evidence strongly supports Epicurus' ancient insight that katastemic pleasure (stable well-being) represents our optimal biological state.
So another visual (instead of a jar) could be a flowing stream. Nature gives us pleasure to guide our optimal, healthy flow; and pain appears when we are flowing past our natural boundaries. This is not a perfect analogy, but a different way of guiding our thoughts and actions.
Thanks for the insight from the LT team!👍
DeWitt's book
Just received it today.
I recently completed DeWitt’s book. It is comprehensive and helpful. I keep finding Christian overtones seeping through in some of his later chapters. But a review of that book by DeWitt may be a discussion in another thread.
Then there's the practical aspect of moving forward and continuing to pursue your most fulfilling life. You're in a place that you never expected to be. You might be older and more vulnerable than in the past, realizing that you need to be open to life and new possibilities, and that you have to learn new ways of doing so.
Obviously there's much more. But Epicurus has provided a framework, if not a path, to continue to pursue your best life. His opponents, in their glib talk of manliness and strength. Have completely missed the point.
You make a good point how #grief of a loved one can put us in unfamiliar territory. There's a profound parallel between your observation about unexpected places in grief and the story about being in Oz.
When Dorothy landed in Oz, everything was unfamiliar - the landscape, the rules, even the very nature of reality had shifted. I think this is similar to the disorienting experience of grief of a close loved one. Grief is perhaps the ultimate Oz experience. You wake up in an emotional landscape you never chose to visit, where all the old certainties are gone.
As you said, we have to be "open to life and new possibilities." Through studies of the Epicurean framework, those experiencing grief can discover inner resources and support systems they hadn't recognized before.
Cicero's focus on this indicates to me that #VS55 is extremely underappreciated in most discussions about Epicurus
Cassius , excellent podcast on the important topic of how to deal with strong emotions, e.g. grief. The key seems to be finding a balance in planning for the future, remembering past pleasures or pains, but not dwelling on the past pains. We can use past pains to help guide us in preventing or mitigating those pains in the future.
I liked how Joshua brought in #VS47 to show that Epicurus did compel us to squarely face the future and take actions today that protect us from probable harms.
VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.
It's also possible to simply include in the body of a post a hashtag like #Ethics, which the system will then be able to find automatically when searching by tag.
Could you add a link to where we find instructions for how to add a tagged word within a forum posting? At the top of the posting box, there is a bunch of icons, but nothing that resembles a #tag that would create the desired hyperlink.
Thanks 🙏
Happy Birthday, Eikadistes
I love how you have helped organize and explain much of the Epicurean texts. I appreciate having a printed copy of Hedonicon. I’m working on making it as full of highlighted text and dog-eared pages as my previously studied 60 year old King James. I appreciate the multiple references included:👍
I find it fascinating that the ancient debate between Aristotle and Epicurus continues today in modern medicine—particularly in positive psychology's focus on Eudaimonia (Aristotle) vs Hedonia (Epicurus). Interestingly, several studies suggest Hedonia may offer more tangible mental health benefits—such as reduced anxiety, depression, and improved sleep—especially in times of stress.
Welcome to, dlippman
I too was a longtime LT podcast listener. So it’s an extra treat to see the faces on Zoom calls of the voices you’ve listened to from Cassius , Joshua , Kalosyni , and many others on LT recordings.
Regarding the different usages of the term “eudaimonia” by Aristotle and Epicurus, you should enjoy reading some of the papers by Christos Yapijakis (active medical professor teaching in Athens).
In the 4th century BCE, Aristotle of Stagira, son of physician Nicomachus, used the observation method of clinicians and spoke plainly about the unity of body and soul, grounding his ethical theory in human biology and becoming the first philosopher to speak extensively of eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία, a blissful, prolonged, imperturbable state of happiness). Following the empirical observation method and the biological ethics of Aristotle, Epicurus the Athenian in the beginning of the 3rd century BCE considered philosophy as a means for a dynamic healing of the soul aiming at developing eudaimonia and dealt with the psychosomatic balance of human beings, which he called eustatheia (εὐστάθεια, stability) of the flesh and soul. While for Aristotle eudaimonia was the emotional action of a virtuous person, for Epicurus eudaimonia was a pleasurable condition in which there is no mental agitation (ἀταραξία, ataraxia) and no corporeal pain (ἀπονία, aponia). It is worth mentioning that Aristotle believed that the eudaimonic life is pleasant, because the virtuous person enjoys acting virtuously,8 while Epicurus proposed that a happy life cannot be achieved without virtue.9
Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management
C. Yapijakis & G. P. Chrousos
Conatus 7, no. 2 (2022): 173-190 DOI: https://doi.org/10.12681/cjp.31769
Christos Yapijakis
National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece
E-mail address: cyapi@med.uoa.gr
George P. Chrousos
National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece
E-mail address: chrousge@med.uoa.gr
By struggling in an effortful way, one is adding an unnecessary level of pain. Sure, we choose pain sometimes for greater pleasure. My go to example is always exercise
Is effort always painful? (I don't think so myself).
Vatican Saying 41 hints at putting effort into things:
"We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy."
Thanks Don and Kalosyni for your perspectives on effort & pain.
While there can be pain in the effort to learn a new skill or a new exercise, there may come a time where the effort produces no pain, but joy in accomplishment. In some cases for those who have learned their skill well, doing yoga or even playing golf, is a joyful (not painful) effort. As one teacher said, “if you are feeling pain, you’re doing it wrong.”
In other words, if one could achieve maximum pleasure with no effort, then there would be no reason to put in any effort. But since this is seldom, if ever, the case, my answer is “as much effort as it takes”.
I think that Epicurus was trying to give us the lessons for how to master the art of living well, by staying attuned to the nature and natural flows and movements.
So, how much effort does it take to be present in the moment, to live like a god, to live a life of wellbeing (eudaimonia)? Maybe a lifetime of daily, joyful effort, which reminds me of T.S. Eliot’s words.
“Quick now, here, now, always-
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)”― T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets
If prolepsis is a PRE-conception, I would describe it more as "the ability to recognize that an issue is involved."
Cassius ,
I can readily agree that the proleptic pattern recognition matching capability is innate in humans.
So is the proleptic recognition of an issue, also based on that individual’s experience as to whether the issue is good, bad or indifferent to them?
How different humans react differently to the same situation or external stimulus is based on an automatic response that is a product of their different life teachings and experiences in addition to our automatic fight/flight reaction. Those life experiences are the data that the proleptic pattern matching uses. It would seem to me that each human’s proleptic response will differ for concepts like ‘justice’, ‘gods’, etc.
Additionally, why is prolepsis necessary for us to know certain things? Isn’t it possible that we simply learn them from experience?
Rolf ,
I love the questions you bring to this topic of prolepsis. As I understand from Bryan list of English translations of the Greek prolepsis, included ‘comprehension’. Experience is essential to learning, but leaves out the other capabilities nature gives humans to achieve deeper levels of understanding & comprehension..
As a senior struggling through many years of experience, trying to become wise, I have come see prolepsis as enabling a ‘whole-body comprehension’ of whatever objects or concepts. The pattern recognition matching occurs across all sensory data that links together myriad related information. I first read of this type of learning in Robert Heinlein’s ‘Stranger in a Strange Land’ - where he learns to “grok” something or someone.
”To grok it, understand it so thoroughly that you merge with it and it merges with you. “
“Grok means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed — to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience. It means almost everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science and it means as little to us as color does to a blind man.”
Grok - Wikipedia
So, it maybe Heinlein’s grok appears to describe some aspects of proleptic comprehension.
For modern times, my idea is that the "spirituality of Nature" would be a kind of "return to sensing Nature" and as a way of increasing good health and pleasure.
Thank you, Kalosyni .
I like to think of ‘Divine Nature’ as being the guide to good health and pleasure.
Thanks for the helpful discussion in this podcast on managing pain. In II-XXI.
The whole, then, consists in this, that you should have command over yourself. I have already told you what kind of command this is; and by considering what is most consistent with patience, fortitude, and greatness of soul, a man not only restrains himself, but somehow or other mitigates even pain itself.
These admonitions from Cicero reminds me of the quote from “Lawrence of Arabia”.
"The trick is not minding that it hurts...”
But this was more a display of stoic behavior.
[linkdb][/linkdb]
As might be expected, Cicero spends a lot of time talking about facing down pain in wartime, but at XXV he turns to the topic of dealing with pain in peacetime.
As I’ve been following these discussions on pain, I too find PD-04 difficult to fully comprehend; especially as it relates to the natural pains (in mind & body) .
During the podcast, Joshua made these excellent comments.
“Nothing could be added to the pain that he's experiencing right now. That is the definition of superlative. But, because the mind acts as a kind of force multiplier for pleasure, if you use it correctly, he says, I set over and above it all the pleasure of the memory of our past friendship.”
I recalled a paper that gave some insight into how to ‘use the mind correctly’. In his paper, “Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management”, Dr. Yapijakis states:
These comments seem to imply that Epicurus and his schools might have taught the “arts” of pain management (recollection, oblivion), as part of learning how to implement PD04. This viewpoint from Yapijakis (& others?) may have been discussed on this forum before, but re-reading Yapijakis in the context of PD04 does help my understanding of the value in learning & practicing such eustatheia skills.
This VS-47 might also apply to why we should learn to withstand pains.
VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.
Do others see this viewpoint that Epicurus was teaching pain management techniques, in order for his disciples to become ’wise’ in using the mind, and live a “blessed life”?
If I recall correctly DeWitt thinks that this was a direct jibe at Plato, who held that you have to be able to know geometry in order to be a philosopher. I'll look for a cite for that.
Thanks for the insight. I just finished reading the last chapter today which, includes how DeWitt describes Plutarch’s attempt to defend himself.[Epicurus & His Philosophy, Chapter XV, p 351)]
The result is labored but it possesses merits: it preserves much valuable information and it shows how the proud Platonists writhed under the shafts of Epicurean ridicule, a weapon to which pride is especially vulnerable.
Plutarch is an outright Platonist in his attitude toward Epicurus, and his writings should remind us that the original quarrel was between the Academy and the Garden.
In Norman DeWitt's Epicurus and His Philosophy, I found this interesting quote. This is in Chapter XIV: The New Virtues, in the section on Hope. DeWitt quotes Vatican Saying 33.
"The cry of the flesh is not to hunger, not to thirst, not to surfer cold, because, possessing these and expecting to possess them, a man may vie with Zeus himself in respect of happiness."
Then while discussing how hope is 'confident expectation', DeWitt cites this quote:
“The stable condition of well-being in the flesh and the confident hope concerning this means the height of enjoyment and the greatest certainty of it for those who are capable of figuring the problem out."
The footnote reference is :
Any thoughts from our more learned friends as to what was meant by, and who are "those who are capable of figuring the problem out" ?
I'm still trying to figure this problem out 
Thanks
In other words, modern science hasn't changed the basic principles underlying the Epicurean approach, but it has expanded the applicability--and, in so doing, made the competing supernaturalist approaches less plausible.
Modern science now has tools to better examine and correlate mental states with our feelings, using enhanced bio-feedback tools.
There is an interesting organization that is conducting rigorous research into the sphere of noetics. The Institute of Noetic Science (IONS) conducts scientific research into understanding the power of the human mind. They are also testing theories of how the human mind can gain extraordinary knowledge thorough ‘natural’ means (e.g. clairvoyance, esp), using scientific methods.
The term “Noetic” comes from the Greek word noēsis/noētikos that means inner wisdom, direct knowing, intuition, or implicit understanding.
“At the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), we are inspired by the power of science to explain phenomena not previously understood, harnessing the best of the rational mind to make advances that further our knowledge and enhance our human experience.
The mission of the Institute of Noetic Sciences is to reveal the interconnected nature of reality through scientific exploration and personal discovery.”
I found some of their research articles helped understand what Epicurus taught to have mental focus (ebole).
