Posts by Patrikios

Quote from m.dango

Maybe worth its own thread if it would make for interesting discussion.

The body transfer illusion is where the brain creates an experience of another body or limb being their own. Perhaps this potentially falls into the category of anticipation rather than sensation?

m.dango ,

Thanks for your elaboration. I agree this could be a deeper discussion.

My basic biology understanding is that our brain holds a “body map” somewhere in our somatosensory cortex.

A summary from ClaudeAI opens an interesting discussion on senses & perception.

Quote

What the quote [from m.dango] is really pointing to is that body ownership is a construction, not a given. The brain doesn’t have direct access to physical reality — it runs a predictive model, and that model can be fooled when multisensory signals are manipulated coherently. The illusion works because the brain follows a simple rule: if visual and tactile input are temporally correlated and spatially plausible, update the body map to include that object.

Does this mean the senses are not wrong, but the brain can be easily fooled?

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus would attack this as precisely the kind of empty abstraction the Canon cannot support. What sensation, prolepsis, or feeling gives you essence as a thing separable from an actually existing entity?

Cassius , I appreciate you bringing us this Epicurean defense of nature-based reality.

It might be helpful to add a link from the first mention of “Canon”, as most of the Epicurus’s responses mention it. When I tracked down this link and read it; these defense arguments (trust nature more than dialectic constructs ) made these responses more fully understood.
https://astro.epicureanfriends.com/02-key-sources/canonics_analysis/

correct link: https://epicurustoday.com/02-key-sources/canonics_analysis/

Thanks for all you post to keep us reading & thinking & applying!

Quote from Cassius

that the "atoms" of our current forms could in fact be reunited in exactly their same positions over the course of infinite time and space.

Cassius

I don’t see how ‘emergence’ plays out in recreating the same exact experience when it is a different time or place. I also don’t see it as a question of “past lives” from a previous time.

Those reunited “atoms” never caught the same fish in the same river as I did in my youth. I still do not see how that recombination of exactly the same types of molecules and compounds could occur in the exact same physical place at the exact same “time” with the exact same cosmic positioning of every star!

Since our human bodies are built & filled through our senses with terabytes of such complex environmental data every day of our life, and influenced by unique gravitational and electromagnetic fields, as well as the positions of other cosmic bodies; I have a very hard time conceiving of the possibility of such exact recreation of any animal with all of the same time-place experiences.

That is how I KNOW that I will only live one life, in answer to the title question.

Quote from LAMAR__44

Now, if the soul is just a combination of atoms, and this combination is a finite combination, that I don’t see why the combination cannot arise given infinite matter, infinite time, and infinite space. It seems very likely that at some point, matter will be arranged somewhere, at some time in the universe, where it’s identical to my brain

LAMAR__44

Interesting question of how would we know. To “know” something requires a brain with memory. Our brains contain volatile memory, with neuron cells. But when the blood flow stops, the brain’s power supply (oxygen, glucose) are cut off. Neurons begin dying within 4-6 minutes. Once that occurs, the memories are gone, and the underlying substrate is destroyed, never to be re-built again with exactly the same physical neuron cells, which will never have the same set of lifelong experiences to reproduce the same memories.

So, those are the natural facts which Epicurus taught us to study. If a few human atoms from a dead body re-formed to make a “soul”, I see no way that it could fulfill the same function as the original, with no memory.

How would you explain a new person with the same soul AND memory?

Quote

Their failures, he says, are caused by themselves — selves which are not identical with their constituent atoms (2-3). Some of their actions and attitudes are not caused by their atomic nature but by certain acquired states, or “ developments ” (ἀπογεγεννημένα, a key term in the entire book; 6-9). These special acquired states are the source of their behavioural autonomy (15-18), and immediately exert an influence on their atoms * (18-19).

Cassius

So, are theses “certain acquired states” describing each individual person/animal unique makeup or personality; or does this also include consideration of a person’s attitude, emotional state, or focused intentions?

Cassius

In today's discussion as we further explored the world of the unseen, you posed the question, "Is there life after death?"

We had a great Epicurean discussion around this question.

As an aside, I mentioned a book that was published by a good friend of mine. It is a fun, intelligent read, that explores this question further. Enjoy, Raphael Raul It is on sale as Kindle ebook for $2.99.

"After", by Tim Ashby.

Quote

AFTER

A profoundly moving read that will stay with thriller aficionados long after they finish the novel.

Ashby’s latest is a page-turning supernatural thriller that explores humankind’s oldest question: “Is there life after death?”

Afflicted with terminal cancer, billionaire Mark Long has been told he has mere months to live. Fixated on what comes after (if anything), he anonymously offers a $5 billion prize to anyone who can prove to Long’s satisfaction that there is some kind of life after death. Requiring applicants to first deposit a $25,000 bond in a trust account, the contest is quickly whittled down to three finalists. Professor Megan Finlay, chair of the Holmes Parapsychology Institute at the University of Edinburgh, is close to a breakthrough. She specializes in near-death experiences—what she calls “transcendence of spatio-temporal boundaries”—and winning Long’s multibillion-dollar prize is a necessity. Another finalist is Aidan McKnight, former Navy SEAL and head of Acheron Capital Partners, who is addicted to challenges. When he hears about Long’s contest, his assistants find Hundra Benteen, a Montana-based “sensitive” (don’t call her a medium) who—in an industry filled with scammers, frauds, and charlatans—just may be the real thing. The last finalist, the Swiss National Institute for Paranormal Studies, doesn’t exist and is a front for Maxim Azimov, the world’s most notorious cybercriminal and mastermind of AI Deepfake technology. As Long’s battle with cancer draws to its inevitable end, Azimov plots to permanently eliminate each of his competitors.

Joshua ,

Thanks to you and Cassius for this excellent episode (327).

This is a very timely episode for helping people make some sense of a world in turmoil, with much re-framing of reality.

This first section appears to describe a worldview not too far from Epicurus, but then needs an Epicurean interpretation.

Quote

And they say that the parts of the world are all the things which exist in it, and which are maintained by sentient nature; in which perfect reason is placed, which is also everlasting: for that there is nothing more powerful which can be the cause of its dissolution. And this power they call the soul of the world, and also its intellect and perfect wisdom.

My understanding of sentient nature, would start by seeing how a seed contains within itself the atomic structure that guides its growth. An animal's body contains the atomic arrangements that produce its instincts. This is intelligence, yes—but we can clarify that it is the intelligence of matter itself, not of some external cosmic mind.

This is where I see the split Epicurus took from the philosophers who wanted to make “Nature” into an active force of an external cosmic mind specifically targeting humans.

I am also wondering how the root Latin around watching over everything.

Quote

And they call it God, a providence watching over everything subject to its dominion

This appears to my understanding as a key differential from our Epicurean gods, whose sentient nature has no concern for “watching over everything”. The gods of which Epicurus speaks exist as guides to the best, optimal life a human can live. That guidance is to study and learn how nature operates; learn its rules; and then use nature’s examples to live our best life.

So, is there some root Latin that makes this “watching over everything” such an active tense, vs the simple, passive knowing that everything in the universe operates according to its own sentient nature?

Quote from Cassius

Natural but Not Necessary Desires

The second category—natural but not necessary—covers desires that arise from our nature but whose specific fulfillment is not required for well-being. The desire for pleasant food, for sexual gratification, for aesthetic enjoyment, for variety and richness in experience—these are genuine desires rooted in human nature and entirely appropriate. They are natural in that they are not fantasies invented by culture or social pressure; but generally they are not necessary in that the specific objects of these desires can be varied, and their absence does not cause the deep pain that the absence of food or shelter would cause.

Cassius

Here is likely one of the few points that we may not see the terminology and human biological processes in the same way. So, with great respect I question the blanket categorization implied by this statement.

When you use the term “sexual gratification” as natural, but not necessary, it casts a pejorative shade over the natural exercise of our human reproductive system whose healthy maintenance does necessarily involve appropriate regular activity for a healthy life. I would open discussion on whether some level of sexual orgasm constitutes necessary healthy function, and does not fit your statement “whose specific fulfillment is not required for well-being”.

Here is just one of many studies supporting a natural & necessary viewpoint, on at least a subset of the broader “sexual gratification” terminology.

Quote

In humans, longer periods of sexual abstinence were associated with increased sperm DNA damage and oxidative stress, along with reduced sperm motility and viability.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2026-03-2…-animal-kingdom

So, we are made with natural sexual desires, and we learn appropriate ways to manage those desires in order to lead a pleasant life (according to PD5). As you stated “generally they are not necessary”; so the implications cited in the WHO study, may fall in the ‘not generally’ cases.

Also, many people raised in traditional religious households are also taught how unnecessary our natural feelings related to “sex” are and should be denied in all cases. So, isn’t the maintenance of a healthy body a necessary condition for a life of wellbeing?

If this topic has been discussed elsewhere in this forum, please advise.

Quote from Cassius

These week we will continue around section 1:265 of Lucretius and explore further the implications of the invisibility of atoms and how we can have confidence in something that is not visible.

Cassius

As we discussed today, there is a recent 2026 publication that deals with concepts, including anticipatory concepts; e.g. preconceptions (prolēpseis).

Quote

Concepts in Epicurean and Stoic Philosophy
Gábor Betegh and Voula Tsouna [2026]

Abstract:

Both of the main Hellenistic philosophical schools, the Epicureans and the Stoics, can be said to have an explicit theory of concepts. Their respective approaches can be characterized as empiricist. This characterization is, we believe, broadly correct, but requires analysis and clarification, for there are different ways in which one can be an empiricist about concepts. Ancient empiricists share at least the view that all concepts originate in experience and that there are no concepts that one is endowed with at birth. What complicates things in Hellenistic philosophy is that the Stoic and Epicurean accounts of concepts appear very similar but belong to different and in some ways opposite philosophical outlooks. They use overlapping terminology, but it is never clear whether they mean the same things by the same terms. The Epicureans develop their views about the formation, nature and use of conceptions and concepts in the context of atomist physics a mechanistic world-view, while the Stoics elaborate their theory within a framework in which physical corporealism is combined with a belief in divine providence and an all-pervading logos. We should bear in mind these widely diverging worldviews, for they will inform crucial aspects of our discussion.

As Epicurus taught, to know what is real or true, we must return to the "Tripod of Truth"—the senses, the feelings, and the preconceptions (prolēpsis). For things that are hidden, like the atoms or the void, we reason by analogy. We know they are real because their existence is required to explain what we can see, such as motion. This paper goes into depth on the Epicurean theory of concepts and preconceptions; and compares them with the Stoic views.

Quote from Cassius

further the condemnation of Socrates and Plato for deprecating the study of natural philosophy

Cassius

Here is another view of how humans have devolved in some of our senses and prolepsis abilities, due to Socrates turn away from observing nature, especially observing it deeply. Since Epicurus saw himself as a healer, the Socratic/Platonic turning away from a deeper understanding of nature’s healing processes, would have horrified Epicurus.

See how a modern psychotherapist, who has studied ‘nature’s healing processes’ up close, describes what many of us civilized humans have lost.

Quote

In Western society, there is an overvaluation of the conscious, analytical mind and, with it, an atrophy of dozens of senses and abilities. Sojourns to the Amazon and the Serengeti have reminded me of the many skills that indigenous people have not forgotten—abilities that guide them safely through life’s inevitable challenges. I have met shamans who can look into another person’s body with their mind’s eye to diagnosis an illness, Hadza Bushmen who can “wire” messages long distances without the use of a cell phone or a letter, and Native Americans who can smell approaching changes in the weather. It is in the quiet of Nature that shamans can listen with their hearts, skin, eyes, and noses as well as their ears—a synesthetic talent that today is largely disbelieved or simply unknown outside of indigenous cultures.

[Awakening the Healing Soul, by Geral Blanchard]

Quote from Cassius

The Youtube translation to English works fairly well, so I will update the first post in this thread with links to the individual presentations as I find them. If you've already watched the video and know where any of these are, please add to the thread and I will update the first post

Scientific Humanism and Psychosomatic Health – Christos Giapitzakis

Cassius

This presentation by Christos Yapijakis, starts at about 1:19:20 and concludes around 1:41:40.

I liked his final statement about how we need "bliss" [eudaimonia] to achieve psychosomatic health.

Quote

Little is needed for bliss; a little water, a little food, a garment, wisdom, and friendship. We can improve the world, but starting with ourselves.

I also enjoyed the introductory comments, which included letters and statements of well wishes for the Symposium from Cassius , @Eikadistes and Hiram. There were announcements of other Epicurean symposiums being held in Cyprus and Italy. I would love to be able to attend a similar event with English speakers. Have there been past/recent attempts to hold a similar event in the USA or Canada?

Quote from Cassius

Current Link to Cosmos Episode 7 - Backbone of the Night - Attacking the Socratic/Platonic abandonment of the study of Nature (mentioned in this episode of the podcast)

Cassius ,

Thanks for including this link to that 25 minute segment (~20:00- 45:00).

Sagan highlights Samos and the Ionian islands as sources of new ideas. They way he shows the sequence of thought is quite helpful, even after reading all of DeWitt’s history of Epicurean ideas. If this reference to that Cosmos segment is not in the recommended reading/watching list, please consider adding it.

Sagan’s summary of the Socratic-Platonic thoughts that support a “slave society” are very relevant today.

Thanks again to you and Joshua for a very informative podcast!

Quote from Eikadistes

Unfortunately, YouTube does not support CC/subtitles for this presentation.

I'm watching the video and seeing English captions. In the YouTube Settings I selected Closed Captioning with Auto-Translate to English.

Maybe some of the presentation papers will get translated into English, such as Christos Yapijakis has done for past symposiums.

Quote from Cassius

I don't have any good links in English yet but this year's symposium in Athens Greece is coming up this weekend. Here's a PDF in Greek of the agenda - if someone knows a good way to get this in English please link it in this thread

https://epicuros.gr/Symposio/kombos16/16oS_Pr.pdf

Cassius
I was not able to open the link provided.
I did open this root URL

Επίκουρος - Επικούρεια Φιλοσοφία

If we can get access to pdf docs of the presentations (in Greek I expect), the Google translation gives us some ideas of the message's.

Quote from DaveT

Wisdom (Prudence), Courage, Temperance, and Justice are ESSENTIAL root-tools for us to regulate our desires

DaveT ,

Could you provide your definitions for these terms, or is there an Epicurean text that groups these 4 virtues as essential?

For example, in PD5, as Kalosyni just cited, we find prudence and justice. But where is temperance required, if I am living prudently, and justly with my neighbors?

I agree that it is good to express and examine our current understanding of the principles. When it comes to listing any 4 virtues as essential for a life of wellbeing, I don’t think that is an arbiter which all persons pursuing an Epicurean life would agree upon.
As Godfrey said

Quote

Each of these central virtues obviously means different things to different people and cultures, and they don't preclude additional virtues. The ultimate arbiter is inside each of us and not in a government, a political party, a social group or in an absolute something-or-other.

Quote from Kalosyni

And in fact the accurate knowledge of details will be fully discovered, if the general principles in the various departments are thoroughly grasped and borne in mind; for even in the case of one fully initiated the most essential feature in all accurate knowledge is the capacity to make a rapid use of observation and mental apprehension,

…

The investigation of nature is important so that one understands that god/gods are not creating all the phenomenon of the world, but that the phenonenon of the world are caused by naturally occurring processes unrelated in any way to god/gods.

Kalosyni ,

Thank you for raising this topic.

As I read the first quotation you mentioned, I am struck by the need for keen observation in order to gain accurate knowledge! This means not only looking at something in nature, but really seeing and studying how nature reveals more details. The “mental apprehension” I have found is built through repeated experiences; which is how our ‘prolepsis’ of a natural phenomenon is further developed. Thus, repeated exposure within nature, especially forests, rivers, coastlines; helps build deeper connections for us humans to thoroughly grasp the details of nature’s miraculous processes.

This message of setting a goal, means we can’t just think or read about nature or a natural process, we have to better understand what are our “natural” desires, [Know Thyself] and which are necessary for our life of physical, mental and spiritual wellbeing. So, it seems to me that this message says we need to spend time in and with nature, in order to feel the full effect of the natural processes that helps guide us to make better choices and avoidances, based on more accurate knowledge of ourselves and our natural environment.

This view is not meant as the only way to interpret or apply the principles of the quotation, but simply the way the words resonate with how I find these Epicurean sayings bring me closer to and appreciating nature. I find that daily time in nature has enabled me to be in more of a daily/hourly “flow” with the environment (people, places, news) I encounter each day. This results in the wellbeing spirit (eudaimonia) we seek.

I’d love to hear how other of our Epicurean friends view and apply this concept.

Quote from Cassius

Thomas Nail appears to be an example of someone looking to bend the simplicity of atomic nothing-comes-from-nothing physics to allow for the existence and control of supernatural otherworldly forces.

There's no way to stand up to fantasizing except to insist on real evidence given to us by nature as self-evident, and that's what Epicurus' canonics is all about.

Cassius ,

I don't quite see where you make this assumption that Thomas Nail is introducing "supernatural otherworldly forces". Or have I mis-read your post #14.

I read Nail's papers more as simply mis-translating [as Bryan pointed out in post #10] to infer that Lucretius understood and was trying to write about the flow and folds of nature as if Lucretius' prefigured Quantum wavefunctions.

"However, in addition to these insights, my books have tried to argue that Lucretius also prefigured quantum theory’s understanding of entanglement and indeterminacy." [Thomas Nail]

I can see Nail's work as a "strong misreading" of DRN—philosophically productive but historically stretched. Where, Nail could have simply drawn careful analogies between Lucretius's atomic swerve (clinamen) and quantum indeterminacy and wave functions driving motion; Nail went further to present this as historical claim to be seen in passages of DRN.

However, I find no mention of Nail discussing "supernatural otherworldly forces". In fact the forces that occur from "motion" create effects which our human senses can not detect, may be better understood today by modern quantum effects.

I thought the critique given by professor Michael Bennett of Nail's work which I quoted his conclusion in my post #11 clarified that Nail was not proposing "supernatural otherworldly forces" in his theory of motion.

Quote

Nothing I have said poses a challenge to the project of developing an ontology of motion adequate to the ethical, political, aesthetic and scientific realities of the present day. Nor have I called into question the consistency or originality Nail claims for the theory of motion presented in the first book of Being and Motion (BM 13). In fact, I have perhaps emphasized its originality—though at the expense of Lucretius’s.

Thanks for your commentary, as it helps me keep reading!

As I have time to read many of the other Nail papers, I'll have a better understanding. Starting with: "THE PHILOSOPHY OF MOVEMENT - An Introduction"

Quote from Bryan

The idea of "flow" will not be found in any dictionary entry for Corpora (link for example). There is no place in Latin literature where Corpora means anything close to "flows."

Thank you Bryan for further educating us on this translation and interpretation from Thomas Nail. I find that your analysis is more historically accurate. But to better understand more of what Thomas Nail was attempting to convey, I consulted additional references.

Michael Bennet also takes Nail to task in his 2022 article in Parrhesia.

nail’s lucretius: strong misreading and whig history

Bennett concludes with this assessment:

Quote

Nothing I have said poses a challenge to the project of developing an ontology of motion adequate to the ethical, political, aesthetic and scientific realities of the present day. Nor have I called into question the consistency or originality Nail claims for the theory of motion presented in the first book of Being and Motion (BM 13). In fact, I have perhaps emphasized its originality—though at the expense of Lucretius’s. I have, however, cast doubt on Nail’s way of reading Lucretius, and so, perhaps, also on his claim that “it is fitting” for a “new materialism” today to return to De Rerum Natura, with which “the entire history of an error began” (LOM 273)—namely, the supposed error of reading it as an atomist text.

Just for grins, I also consulted Perplexity AI:

Quote

Thomas Nail’s reading is not simply “right” or “wrong”; it is a deliberately speculative, philosophical reinterpretation of Lucretius that goes well beyond what the poem itself, or mainstream Lucretius scholarship, would warrant as historically accurate.

...

So: as historical exegesis, claiming that Lucretius is “really” a theorist of flows and folds anticipating quantum field theory overstates the case and conflicts with the mainstream, atomist reading. As a philosophical reception or creative re‑appropriation, Nail’s reading is legitimate and interesting, but its success is measured by its philosophical fruitfulness, not by fidelity to Lucretius’s own conceptual world.

...

If the question is: “Is Nail offering a productive, contemporary way to read Lucretius that resonates with some features of modern physics?” then the answer is: possibly yes, as long as we recognize that this is a strong, creative misreading rather than a neutral historical interpretation.

The commentary provided by others on this thread are quite helpful in adjusting how best to read such interesting perspectives on Lucretius DRN from modern philosophy professors, such as Thomas Nail. However, Nail did publish his theory of motion in Lucretius in three parts from 2018 to 2022, with a further update in 2024:

Lucretius I: An Ontology of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2018)

Lucretius II: An Ethics of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2020)

Lucretius III: A History of Motion (Edinburgh University Press, 2022)

The Philosophy of Movement: An Introduction (University of Minnesota Press, 2024)

It will take me awhile to read through these other papers by Nail to more fully understand his perspective. Through this forum, it will be interesting to keep these modern views in balance with the initial historical writings of Lucretius. Thanks to all for your added knowledge, as we continue studying Lucretius.

Quote from Cassius

I just read the article. I agree with some of Nail's points on ethics (especially his implicit or explicit criticism of too much focus on static / katastematic ideas) but I am not seeing the profound differences between Lucretius and Epicurus that he claims to see as to particles or the resulting nature of the universe.

In fact I don't think his article gives a clear statement of where he is going with his whole argument. He seems to think there are profound implications in Lucretius deviating from Epicurus - but so far as I can tell he is not explaining what significance there is in what he is seeing.

I gather he is focusing on implications of motion but I see no reason why what he talks about as to motion is not already in Epicurus.

The article has lots of energetic argument but at least for me I don't see why he is so worked up.

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for posting this paper by Nail. I am finding some profound enlightenment from the perspective presented.

Cassius ,

I may be misinterpreting Nail’s views but these are his statements that show a difference in approach to understanding how Lucretius describes the flow & folding.

Quote

Lucretius also prefigured quantum theory’s understanding of entanglement and indeterminacy.

…
Instead of talking about discrete particles, Lucretius talks endlessly about flows and folds. These are the core tenets of what I call Lucretius’ “kinetic materialism.” If matter does not flow it cannot fold; if it folds it must also flow. However, if we interpret Lucretius’ concept of corpora as ‘discrete particles’ or ‘atoms’ instead of flows, his whole conceptual edifice of folding [plex] (simplex, duplex, complex, amplex) completely unravels. Atoms simply cannot fold.

…

Since the soul and body come into being with their matters “woven” [inplexis] (3.331) together and “roots” [radicibus] (3.325) growing together, they are also “unwoven” or “untied” [dissolu-antur] (3.330) together as well. Since the soul and body are in constant motion, then it follows that the soul is always weaving.

Modern quantum field theory describes "atomic particles" as emergent from wave functions when observed—which aligns precisely with what Nail's arguing about flows producing folds, not vice versa. Thus, I do see a difference between Epicurus and Lucretius describing the differing approaches of their physics. Sometimes artists, poets can interpret nature and reality in ‘flowing’ texts, or flowing brush stokes that provides a different perspective from a particle-driven viewpoint.

I also find that this perspective of flows and weaving folds is reflected in how some indigenous cultures describe their connection with Nature (e.g. Mother Nature). They see the flows of nature, even in their own souls. In some indigenous cultures, the women (the creative life bearers) are the only ones allowed to weave, as that is their spiritual way of connecting to Mother Nature.

Quote from Cassius

In other words we can't wait forever debating "what does happiness mean." We have to decide NOW whether our goal is happiness, or obeying the gods, or being "rational," or being a "good person," or whatever. So I think it's a mistake to think that we have to know all there is to know about the etymology of happiness before we decide how to organize our lives.

Cassius ,

Thanks for the Claude (AI) bibliography, which I am finding most thorough and helpful. To answer your key question, "what is happiness", I agree that we cannot afford to wait for perfect clarity before we must act to implement Epicurean principles.

We face choices every moment, every day; so I don't find this question as merely academic. We must choose whether to organize our lives around the pursuit of happiness, or around obedience to divine will, or around abstract rationality, or around virtue as an end in itself?

If I understand correctly, Epicurus gave a clear principle: examine your desires, distinguish the necessary from the unnecessary, and pursue what genuinely produces peace of mind and freedom from pain. This is a guide for healthy living now.

The real question becomes: will we trust the guidance nature has given us, or will we defer to external authorities? As I develop trust in nature's guidance, the path forward becomes clearer. And I find the guidance from studying the Epicurean principles, provides examples and advice on how to focus honest attention on what produces genuine tranquility in our lives and what disturbs it. This seems to be a good path for pursuing a life of well-being.