Posts by Pacatus

Godfrey

Just quickly, off the top of my head: Generally, Conservative Jews keep kashrut -- but, unlike Orthodox Jews ordain women, and have other liberal positions. Reform Jews generally reject the need to keep kashrut, take more of the Torah symbolically or metaphorically. An outward example: in the synagogue I was involved in, Conservative Jews tended to wear the kippah (skull cap/yarmulke) all the time, and maybe the fringed garment (tzitzit); Reform Jews donned the yarmulke only during services, and didn't wear the tzitzit at all. They used different prayer books (siddurim). Theologically, there might not be many real differences -- although Reform Jews (like some neo-Hasidim) seemed to tend more toward some versions of pantheism. Humanistic Jews might reject the notion of a supernatural creator God (or any God) altogether, but still keep some of the Torah-traditions as a community-bonding practice.

That is really simplistic, but the best I can do to give maybe a picture. Wikipedia probably has articles, but these observations are based on my personal experience.

For those who might be interested in pursuing this topic further, I stumbled on this book in Amazon: Epicurus & Apikorsim: The Influence of the Greek Epicurus and Jewish Apikorsim on Judaism Hardcover – August 15, 2007

https://www.amazon.com/Epicurus-Apikorsim-Influence-Jewish-Judaism/dp/9659115113/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.d7u4ebcpoEF2VZBVZbkrscVAMrzSSzxdETHHR7Z2rr8dYFlLCmf00RyBBS5RGGVx.zHMcZrk595kS0YXy2_l75ucghtz4z7wwStB0q9avuDs&dib_tag=se&keywords=Epicurus+and+Apikorsim&qid=1711310233&s=books&sr=1-1

One of the commentators mentions Humanistic Judaism as a strain that would be apikorsim. In the months I participated, as a graciously welcomed guest, in a local mixed-congregation (Conservative and Reform) synagogue, I got the strong impression that many of the Conservative members viewed Reform Jews pretty much as apikorsim – even as they were often good friends.

I’ve decided to write a poem on Leontion, which will take some painstaking time (as always). The first stanza thus far (in very rough draft, and subject to radical revision):

Leontion, your treatises are lost
and we are left with mere hints of your wit:
a woman scorned for her acuity,
an affront male ego could not acquit.

As I go, I keep doing what research I can on this “lost philosopher,” some quotes from which I am likely to include in my author’s notes. Here is what I’ve got so far, for those interested:

“Leontion was a follower of Epicurus, a renowned philosopher whose school welcomed the unlikeliest of sorts: foreigners, slaves, and—almost more surprisingly—women.”

Leontion: The Lost Woman Philosopher - Philosophy News

Lost but not completely forgotten. It is beyond doubt that the paragons of philosophy’s history, so recalled for their wondrous scholarship, were in custody of…

philosophynews.com

“Leontion’s criticism of a male thinker left her open to charges of impertinence, but was also viewed as an inspiration by later female writers. On one point everyone seems to have agreed: even the most critical portrayals of Leontion were obliged to acknowledge her intelligence.”

Leontion, 'Little Prostitute' or 'Great Philosopher'

Followers of our Twitter account may remember an image we posted a few months ago on #InternationalHugAMedievalistDay, showing a woman being interrupted from…

blogs.bl.uk

“Leontion did the unthinkable. She criticized the celebrated and unassailable philosopher, Theophrastus, the pupil of Plato and the chief assistant of Aristotle. She was audacious, confident and able to match the great philosopher in a debate.”

“Though all of Leontion’s work is now lost, she is still remembered to this day thanks to her convincing arguments against the famous philosopher Theophrastus, Aristotle’s successor.”

Leontion – Folia Magazine

Your virtual eye on illuminated manuscripts, rare books, and the stories behind them. By Franco Cosimo Panini Editore.

www.foliamagazine.it

Quote from Cassius

for most important uses I skip over all the poetic versions

Actually, I don't really disagree even though I prefer the poetic versions, and have used both A.E. Stallings (though at times I find her rhymed fourteeners cumbersome) and Frank O. Copley's blank verse version. After all, Lucretius had his own poetic flourishes. But for clarity, I'll refer to Martin Ferguson Smith.

From Joshua 's "spoiler": "Nature is not an abstract capacity, but a generative mother, bringing forth everything that exists. We have, in other words, entered the Lucretian universe."

Natura naturans: "Nature naturing" -- though not necessarily in accordance with Spinoza's philosophical understanding.

Welcome.

I recently came across an alternative possibility:

“Even the derivation of the term is not simple. It probably derives ultimately from the name of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, but Rabbinic literature displays no knowledge of the existence of a Greek philosopher by that name. If it were a semitic term, it would be derived from the root pqr, which by an apparently fortuitous coincidence means licentious, dissolute, or rebellious. This derivation has been maintained by at least one eminent philologist.”

And: “The fact that the Amoraim derive the term Apiqoros from the Hebrew root pqr (Sanhedrin 38b) provides some evidence that they were unaware of Epicureans at all. But on the other hand it may only be an example of self-consciously creative homiletic Rabbinic exegesis.”*

Thus it could be – although Danzig seems to think probably not – originally at least, a “phonetic coincidence.”

* Gabriel Danzig, “Epicurus and Epicureanism in Rabbinic Literature” in the Oxford Handbook of Epicurus and Epicureanism; Philip Mitsis, Editor.

Classical Hebrew is based on such consonantal roots, and words that are so based -- even with the root letters rearranged and with additions -- are etymologically related.

My paternal grandmother Mae, who has been a bit of a hero-character for me, especially in my older years, lived to one month shy of 99 – by living pretty much a-day-at-a-time for pleasure and personal happiness. She would grub by hand in her beloved garden all day – and then don evening attire and an emerald ring (the gems of which she herself smuggled out of a Central American country!), etc., to play bridge with “the Ladies” (all of whom were of higher social status than Mae). Mostly, she enjoyed simple fare – but on holidays could conjure a gourmet feast. [Like me, she tended, when she could afford it, more toward the indulgent pole of the continuum, rather than the ascetic pole.] She was both earthy and elegant, feisty and gracious. I’ve been working on a revision of an older poem I dedicated to her, and may post it on my wall here if and when I finish.

From the article Don referenced: “It seems to me that the only people who really want to live forever are those who are unable to find joy in the lives they’re living now.”

Daniel Klein, in his book Travels With Epicurus, addresses these issues from a personal perspective (often with congenial self-deprecating humor) as he enters his 70s – eschewing both the frantic (and often cosmetic) “forever-youngness” of some of his friends and the countervailing attempt by some to grind toward a longevity that promises a severely diminished quality of life, by paradoxically foregoing enjoyment now. Klein may not always be a “strict” Epicurean, but I thoroughly enjoyed (and related to) his book – through two readings now.

Don How does tagathon relate to telos?

Artists' renderings can certainly evoke a mood. Here is a painting of Zeno of Citium (I couldn't find the artist) and Genevra Catalano's Epicurus:

Quote from Don

There seem to be SO MANY specific Greek and Latin words that get chopped down to just "happy" in English.

An interesting anecdote on translation: I read once that Martin Buber’s and Franz Rosenzweig’s translation of the Torah from Hebrew into German was much longer than the original – because they wanted to capture all the nuances of the highly polysemous Hebrew! No "chopping down" for them!

Quote from Don

"In the Latin Vulgate, each of these blessings begins with the word beātī, which translates to "blessed" (plural adjective). The corresponding word in the original Greek is μακάριοι (makarioi), with the same meaning. Thus "Blessed are the poor in spirit" appears in Latin as beātī pauperēs spīritū. The Latin noun beātitūdō was coined by Cicero to describe a state of blessedness and was later incorporated within the chapter headings written for Matthew 5 in various printed versions of the Vulgate."

I recalled having seen English translations that rendered μακάριος as “happy” – including in the beatitudes. The two I found are Young’s Literal Translation (1898) and the Good News Translation by the American Bible Society (1976).

"Beatitudo" from Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beatitudo.

Quote from Bryan

"Happiness" is not incorrect, but well-being is better.

For myself, I find "happiness" to be fine -- and something I understand (for myself). If I want to clarify, I say "happy well-being." I don't think that's entirely redundant.

Quote from Don

People, were talking the late 1700s here. Grammar is not what it used to be.

Absolutely. Not to flog a trivial point to death, but Latin also has/had comparative and superlative forms of perfectus:

https://www.latin-is-simple.com/en/vocabulary/adjective/6667/?h=perfectus

perfectus - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

I haven’t gone back through the thread, so I might be rehashing a bit. My last impression was that “perfect” is generally taken as an absolute abstract ideal, an attachment to which could easily deter one from pragmatically seeking the attainable “merely good” or “good enough.” But then I recalled the words from the preamble to the U.S. Constitution: “in order to form a more perfect union.” It turns out that “perfect” has not necessarily been confined to that absolute sense –

“A few usage guides still object to the use of comparison words such as more, most, nearly, almost, and rather with perfect on the grounds that perfect describes an absolute, yes-or-no condition that cannot logically be said to exist in varying degrees. The English language has never agreed to this limitation. Since its earliest use in the 13th century, perfect has, like almost all adjectives, been compared, first in the now obsolete forms perfecter and perfectest, and more recently with more, most, and similar comparison words: the most perfect arrangement of color and line imaginable. Perfect is compared in most of its general senses in all varieties of speech and writing. After all, one of the objectives of the writers of the U.S. Constitution was ‘to form a more perfect union.’” https://www.dictionary.com/browse/perfecter

And : https://strategiesforparents.com/is-it-correct-…-perfect-union/

And Wiktionary includes the understanding of “excellent” for the Latin “perfectus”: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perfectus#Latin. Similarly from https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=perfect.

Just for interest …

Quote from Cassius

"The 'perfect' of a thing is a concept that we use to visualize what the 'best' of that thing would be, and by visualizing that concept of the 'best' of that thing, we can more easily work toward our target of approximating it. And even though we know from the start that the 'perfect' is not attainable for us, it still serves as a very valuable tool for us in calculating out actions, because there is no way we can hope to come close to a goal unless we start out knowing what the goal is."

I like that. I would see it then as an "ideal" not in the sense of Platonic idealism but more like:

Ideal

2: one regarded as exemplifying an ideal and often taken as a model for imitation

3: an ultimate object or aim of endeavor : GOAL

Definition of IDEAL

of, relating to, or embodying an ideal; conforming exactly to an ideal, law, or standard : perfect; existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only;…

www.merriam-webster.com

Epicurus’ living as a god?

Or a telos -- a la eudaimonia?

From the review cited by Kalosyni in post #50:

“To be clear, Mitchell does not believe our choices are absolutely free from any prior causes. We are all constrained by our genes, our histories, our psychological traits, and our developed characters. Instead of radical metaphysical freedom, Mitchell persuasively develops a more modest conception of free will that entails the evolved ability to make real choices in the service of our goals—that is, to act for our own reasons.”

Thus, Mitchell is not advocating for so-called “libertarian free will.”

From the review cited by Don in post #60:

“Organisms are not passively driven by outside signals, they interpret them, they are “meeting the world halfway, as an active partner in a dance that lasts a lifetime” (p. 217). This is the kind of academic poetry that blows my mind.” Mine too!

“Ultimately, he thinks the question of free will is a red herring and takes a pragmatic view: ‘If free will is the capacity for conscious, rational control of our actions, then I am happy in saying we have it’ … Rather than all-or-none, we have degrees of freedom, and not all people are equal in that regard.”

Thus, we can recognize mitigating circumstances with regard to personal and ethical responsibility -- without denying responsibility altogether.

Quote from Onenski

The same happen with belief in free will.

The word “belief” has become increasingly suspect for me over the years. If someone means what appears to me to be the case, or makes sense, based on my experience and observation and study, then fine (emphasis on “appears”). But that is all I will ever mean by it.

Quote from Onenski

I hope it's evident that I don't pretend to have the last word, and of course I don't intend to change the viewpoints of anybody. I just think that I could add something to this thread with my understanding of this debate in order to make it richer.

Totally!