Posts by Pacatus

Welcome!

Hardcore definition of pleasure may not be possible, but "I know it when I feel it."*

However, I think we can generally identify desires in the Epicurean schema of: 1) natural and necessary, 2) natural but not necessary and 3) neither natural nor necessary (and likely harmful: leading ultimately to pain rather than pleasure).

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* In his concurring opinion in the 1964 Jacobellis v. Ohio case, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart delivered what has become the most well-known line related to the detection of “hard-core” pornography: the infamous “I know it when I see it.” statement.

“I have reached the conclusion . . . that under the First and Fourteenth Amendments criminal laws in this area are constitutionally limited to hard-core pornography. I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.”

“Nobody gives a damn about schedules on Ikaria. Businesses open late. Time slows. Days slide into a gentle rhythm.” https://adventure.com/blue-zones-ikaria-greece/

“My grandmother is 88 and acts like she is 30. She gardens, takes care of her animals, goes out for coffee, jokes about sex, dances at parties. She has even been known to play spin the bottle!” Eftychia Afianes (ibid).

– Sounds exactly like my paternal grandmother, who died one month shy of her 99th birthday. [She is my ultimate Epicurean hero! Her uptight, stoical-virtue-bound son (my father, who didn’t like her much) sadly died at age 59.] She was an avid gardener, who would hoe and grub in the dirt all day -- and then come down the stairs in her evening dress to go play bridge with "the ladies." She normally ate frugally -- but her garlic-stuffed leg of lamb on the occasional family feast was quasi-legendary! She was a feisty flapper-era (as a young woman) proto-feminist. And I will always be grateful to her for how much she shared.

My wife and I recently watched the Netflix series on the Blue Zones – places where a higher percentage of people live to healthy old age: https://www.netflix.com/search?q=blue%20zones&jbv=81214929

We had read the book years ago. I was particularly interested in the Greek island of Ikaria, because of the (loose) connection to Greek culture. Here is the article on Ikaria from the Blue Zone site: https://www.bluezones.com/explorations/ikaria-greece/

I have never been really careful with diet – largely ignoring, for example, my gluten sensitivity (which recently nailed me after a delicious pasta meal). Now, I am trying to cut out gluten-grains – as well as finely milled non-gluten breads and the like (I seem to recall that the rapid digestion of such can spike insulin). Non-gluten, intact grains only. Tonight will be lentils and brown rice, with a side of lean chicken and a small salad.

In recent years, I have also had two or three recurring (mild) bouts of gout – which is tuning me into anti-inflammation considerations, including a host of herbs and spices (e.g. ginger, garlic – of which we are robust consumers anyway – coriander, oregano, etc.: to list the more “Mediterranean” ones, although trade brought in, say, black pepper from India).

Okay, more veggies and fruits! The wine stays! But I am switching to organic wine with no added sulfites (like “Our Daily Red”: https://ourdailywines.com/products/our-d…ganic-red-blend. )

Basically, the “Mediterranean Diet” without the bread and pasta (and pizza – Oh no!).

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Disclosure: I’m 72.

Quote from Don

don't think we should think of frank speech between teacher and student as "confession," which perverts the notion of correction and instruction to a means of punishment and shame.

Since the Garden community was based in friendship as well as learning, I would think that a good amount of δῐᾰλεκτῐκή was permitted – and even encouraged – as opposed to a strict master-disciple dictate-and-absorb regime (ala Epictetus, maybe?). Likely a good amount of humor sprinkled in as well. (No question as to whom the “master” – as in mastery – was, of course.)

Once, when I was (legally) required to be in a meeting where I was going to be under (deceitful and unjust) attack, I sought the counsel of a wise friend (a social-worker clinical therapist with whom I did therapy for some time, who also became a valued friend). What he said was this: “Let me tell you what you are required to do: to put your body in that place for the prescribed time. That’s it. Make yourself comfortable – and do not engage. You don’t have to argue, you don’t have to even respond to their questions. You can let your mind go wherever you want – you can plan a vacation, you can imagine or remember a pleasant scenario in your life. And when the time is up, you can just leave.”

Which is what I did. I did not engage my mind in any of the negativity.

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With that said, Don has often stressed that ataraxia is not the be-all-end-all for an Epicurean: aponia is (on the negative side) the other blade of the scissors.* In the throes of severe pain, Epicurus may well have struggled to maintain ataraxia and enjoy the pleasures of the mind (and he may have drifted in and out of consciousness). But he had the tools make the best job of it.

My therapist friend would recommend the same kind of tools.

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* The Stoics seem to dismiss pone as something almost irrelevant to the apatheia of the sage. The Pyrrhonians simply stress ataraxia, without, as I recall, much attention to pone.

Quote from Cassius

But is he knowledgeable about philosophy? Can someone be happy without philosophy? Is happiness also relative? As the saying goes, "If ignorance is bliss is the shepherd living in a constant state of ecstacy?"

Depends on how one thinks of philosophy: as an intellectual pursuit (at whatever level), or a required body of knowledge (e.g. the Canon) – or as a way of living one’s daily life. If the latter, I see no reason why the shepherd – or myself, with less desire to pursue the intellectual stream and a greater desire (at my age) to live each day as well as can be (pleasure and pleasantness) – cannot live an Epicurean life. (Of course, I have been helped much by the philosophical knowledge that is represented here!)

So, I’ll take the hypothetical as given (applying my own imagination to the question) and choose the shepherd (also for the reasons that Eikadistes gave).

Stepping outside the hypothetical, I’ll choose my own life (with all its vagaries, struggles, errors and even regrets). And be grateful to Epicurus – and friends here – for the insights that help me along.

Cassius: Yes, that’s the one – and I recall first hearing it.

But Kamahl’s voice in this one is hard to beat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwYMcYrEUF8

Desiderata

(by Max Ehrmann)

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive God to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

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My wife’s elder brother-in-law had this memorized, and could quote it verbatim at any time. He was a gentle, generous bear of a man. The cosmos was better for his being in it.

Quote from Nate

That also goes for Stoics, too.

The question is, when does open and appreciative discussion become toxic argument? (Well, I think you can tell in the instance.) My oldest son is very much a Stoic -- and it really comes out of his well-meaning concerns for other people's well-being and a sense of justice. We have always had the ability to argue hard -- and then laugh about it (while our wives are laughing at both of us!   ). But we do avoid the toxicity. I have no desire to convince him to be an Epicurean -- or anything else. But even that kind of argument has become distasteful to me. Time better spent in another kind of communion. Maybe Max Ehrmann had it right in his Desiderata: "Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others ... ."

Quote from Kalosyni

There is the logistical hurdle of deciding where to have the meeting and how to advertise it.

Just a possibility: depending on where you live, the Unitarian Churches are generally very open to various groups (the one in my community has a Wiccan group that meets, and I have known of Zen roshis and Taoists being Unitarian ministers). They might be happy to provide meeting space, depending on their general schedule. (Also, they ight offer some advertising via the church bulletin.)

Don A few random thoughts --

I recall that Alan Watts (in his Behold the Spirit – his only Christian book, written while he was chaplain at Northwestern University, and accepted as the thesis for his M.Div. degree -- objected to a hard-edged distinction between agape and eros, which he attributed to Philip Nygren). I have also read Greek Orthodox writers who agreed. The general thrust is that agape includes, but is not limited by, eros -- agape having an added connotation of deep caring for the other.

In the Septuagint, agape is used to translate the Hebrew ahavah (love, generally) in the Song of Songs, where it at least seems to be tinted with the passion of eros. It might have seemed to Peter to be at least tinged with more than "unconditional" love.

And Ignatius of Antioch declared (regarding the Christ), "My Eros is crucified!"

Great find Godfrey! (I was for some years a member of the Poetry Foundation – no great shakes that: you pay a membership fee and you’re a member! )

Although the Foundation site does not appear to have Tennyson’s Lucretius, it can be found here: https://allpoetry.com/poem/8473099-L…d-Lord-Tennyson

Confession: I’ve never been really fond of epic poetry, as a matter of purely personal, ill-grounded prejudice – being mostly a lyric poet, I have never been able to sustain a poem of any real length. Nevertheless, I am trying to read De Rerum Natura as a poem more than as a philosophical treatise.

Joshua: Thanks for that link to Ian Johnston’s translation.

I have decided, to assuage my poetic embarrassment, to prioritize finishing Lucretius. I’ve started all over again from the beginning, using Frank Copley’s translation (on Kindle); his loose blank verse seems to flow well (far better than Stallings’ fourteeners) – and I really want to read the poem as a poem. Do you prefer Johnston’s? (I’ll try to do a running comparison – but really I just need to knuckle down and read the poem!)

I note that Johnston is very critical of prose translations, though he acknowledges some merit to Smith’s work.)

Thanks HsiehKW. I'll take a look at it.

But first, I have to assuage my poetic embarrassment by finishing Lucretius.

Quote from Cassius

I think that's what we're after here at EpicureanFriends too, and if there emerges from that a distinct flavor that separates this from other approaches, it's not adherence to DeWitt's conclusions that makes the difference. It's much more a shared approach of going after everything we can find that sheds light on what Epicurus may have been thinking, and trying to place it fairly but sympathetically to reconstruct the larger picture, that makes the difference.

I endorse that as well -- just from my personal experience on here. And, I confess, I have never finished DeWitt.

Don

What if I am not a list?

Okay, couldn’t help myself: just my mood today.

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With that crass distraction tossed in the trash, I’d point out that the original Hebrew texts of the Bible had no verse numbers, no line breaks, no sentence breaks – and more often than not, no word breaks (and no determinate vowels before the Masoretes’ inventions between the 7th and 10th centuries C.E.). That is what makes classical Hebrew such a radically polysemous language, which guided the highly hermeneutical approach of the Talmuds and subsequent rabbinical Judaisms (many rabbis at the time objected to the Masoretes’ project as arbitrarily limiting interpretation).

[Oh, and far more of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanach) is actually poetry than is often recognized.]

The same can be said for the earliest Koine Greek of the New Testament. Such things as verse numbers (which can far too often – in my opinion – be quoted without attention to larger context) – and even phrase breaks – were later (interpretive) additions.

And so, I think you may well be onto something here ... (Do we know the historical development of these texts? I had thought not.)

HsiehKW

I think you are very much into something here (though I am no scholar of either Epicurean philosophy or psychology) – especially relating to Epicurus’ reliance on aesthesis, pathe and prolpsis as the empirical basis for cognition (as I understand it).

BTW, have you read Lakoff and Marshall’s Philosophy in the Flesh? I put it in my Amazon wish list, but I hesitate that it might be too deep of a dive – and the usual free sample read is not available. Any thoughts?

I just wanted to add to the above that I do not think of “frugality” as some kind of idealistic virtue-discipline (ala, say, the Stoics) – but just as the simple practical virtue of “living well within your means” – where the double entendre with that word “well” is deliberate. And living well just means living as pleasurable, painlessly and stresslessly as possible.

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HsiehKW

I’ve always been a natural introvert and even a bit reclusive at times (well, maybe more than a bit ). A few close friends matter a lot, but I would have a hard time living in a close community – even of like-minded folks. This is my Epicurean community.