Posts by Cleveland Okie

Matteng I second Joshua's recommendation of The Swerve. Aside from its Epicurean interest, it is a really fun read.

If "Epicureanism in the Renaissance" is an interest for some of y'all, I would also recommend Ada Palmer's Reading Lucretius in the Renaissance. Palmer is a historian at the University of Chicago, also a science fiction novelist, also a musician, also a bunch of other things. She is a "Renaissance woman" in double meanings of the term; i.e., she specializes in the Renaissance, but also works at the high level in a variety of fields. I am pretty sure she says that she and Greenblatt showed each other's manuscripts to each other as they were working on their books.

As we seem to read a lot of the same things, here is a list of Epicurean books I have read so far, is there anything I have missed that you (or anyone else) would like to recommend?

Hellenistic Philosophy, John Sellars
The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism, James Warren, editor.
Epicurus and His Influence on History, Ben Gazur
The Fourfold Remedy: Epicurus and the Art of Happiness, John Sellars.
A Few Days in Athens; being the Translation of a Greek Manuscript Discovered in Herculaneum, Frances Wright
On the Nature of Things, Lucretius, Ian Johnston translator.
Epicureanism, Tim O’Keefe.
Tending the Epicurean Garden, Hiram Crespo.
The Epicurus Reader: Selected Writings and Testimonia, Epicurus, Brad Inwood, Lloyd P. Gerson
Reading Lucretius in the Renaissance, Ada Palmer.
Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life, Emily
Austin.
How to Be an Epicurean: The Ancient Art of Living Well, Catherine Wilson.
Epicureanism: A Very Short Introduction, Catherine Wilson. 11-2021
Epicurus and His Philosophy, Norman W. DeWitt.
EPICURUS and THE PLEASANT LIFE: A Philosophy of Nature Kindle Edition– November 30, 2022 - Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition, Haris Dimitriadis

Reading books tends to be my main method for studying Epicureanism, although I do sometimes participate in this forum. By my count, I have read 15 books about Epicureanism so far. (I say “by my count” because deciding whether to list a title in my “Epicurean Books Read” list that keep involves some judgment calls; I count Hellenic Philosophy by John Sellars because I read it mostly to learn more about Epicureanism, but I don’t count The Swerve by Stephen Greenblatt because I read it before I became interested in Epicureansm).

My favorite book about Epicureanism is Living for Pleasure by philosophy professor Emily Austin. I have read it three times and I suspect I will read it again.

Searching for a way to learn from Professor Austin besides reading her book over and over again, I have paid attention to the “Suggested Further Reading” section in the back of the book. I have now read most of the books she recommends and here are my notes, with the caution that I don’t claim to be a scholar of Greek philosophy, just somebody with an interest in Epicureanism who hasn’t been kicked out of this forum yet. I will list each title that Austin recommends and then offer a comment.

The Epicurus Reader: Selected Writings and Testimonia. 1994. Translated and edited by Brad Inwood and L.P. Gerson.

As you might guess from the title, the book consists of modern English translations not only of Epicurus’ surviving writings but also useful works by Cicero, Plutarch, etc. I keep a copy of my Kindle book on the Kindle app on my smartphone for ready reference, something I also do with Austin’s book.

Hellenistic Philosophy: Introductory Readings, Inwood and Gerson again. I haven’t read this yet, because my main interest is in Epicureanism, although I have come to understand it is useful and interesting to know about the historical context of Epicureanism. This book also is recommended by philosophy professor John Sellars, who I’ll mention below.

Lucretius, On the Nature of Things. Professor Austin suggests the Martin Ferguson Smith translation for readers who want prose, and the Ronald Melville translation for a verse rendition.

Professor Austin is of course correct in suggesting that any serious Epicurean should read Lucretius. I have not read either of these translations, simply because I already had a translation on my Kindle, one done by Ian Johnston.

Epicureanism, Tim O’Keefe, 2009. I thought this book was very good. Whereas the Austin book is aimed at the interested layman, O’Keefe seems to aim mainly at college students studying philosophy. That said, I found his book easier going than many other philosophy books. I plan to read it again soon.

When I emailed Professor O’Keefe (he is a philosophy professor at Georgia State University), I mentioned that I read his book because Professor Austin recommended it. He replied, “I think Emily Austin’s book is just outstanding.”

The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism, edited by James Warren.

This is a collection of 15 essays on various topics by a number of different scholars. I found 14 of the essays to be interesting and useful, although “Epicurean Philosophy of Language” by Catherine Atherton was too technical for me to follow. There’s a wide range of topics and I suspect that most people on this forum would be interested in many of the essays. This is probably a good book to read after you’ve read a couple of the surveys, such as Austin’s.

The Cambridge Companion to Lucretius, Gillespie and Hardie. I haven’t gotten around to this one yet.

The Swerve, Stephen Greenblatt. A fun book. I read it before I became interested in Epicureanism. I was then mainly interested in book collecting and the recovery of ancient texts. Poggio Bracciolini is one of my heroes.

Hellenistic Philosophy, John Sellars. This book focuses mainly on Epicureanism, Stoicism and Skepticism, although he also lets you know that the Academics and Peripatetics were up to during the period. This is the most recent book I have read. I got interested in reading this book after I read The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism and realized I would understand Epicureanism better if I knew more about its context in the Hellenistic period. This is a good book and Sellars, despite his reputation as a Stoicism expert, is very lucid in discussing Epicureanism. I also like Sellars’ short book, The Fourfold Remedy, which discusses Epicurean ethics.

I have a blog devoted to the writers Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, and I have posted twice there about Hellenistic Philosophy, if anyone is interested.

Here is the main post on the book:

An interesting philosophy book

I have been reading an interesting book that I had my wife give me for Christmas: Hellenistic Philosophy by John Sellars.  If you aren't fa...

www.rawillumination.net

When I reached the end of the book, I discovered a fascinating appendix on encounters between Greek philosophers and their counterparts in India, Buddhists and Brahmins, so I did a separate blog post:

Greek philosophers interacted with Buddhists and Hindus, back in the day

I have already done a blog post on Hellenistic Philosophy by John Sellars.   As I mentioned earlier, it focuses on three main philosophical...

www.rawillumination.net

Cicero: On Moral Ends, edited by Julia Annas, translated by Raphael Woolf.

I haven’t read this book, either. In his Hellenistic Philosophy book, Sellars recommends reading Cicero, although he adds other works are needed to provide a “balanced picture” of Epicureanism.

I just wanted to take a moment to mention how much I enjoyed Don's new translation with commentary of "Meditate Οn Τhese Things: Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus." I have nothing scholarly to offer, but I thought if I explained why I like it, it might be useful to other people who might be tempted to download it.

There can never be enough translations of the Letter to Menoikeus for those of us who don't know Greek, so the first thing I did was simply read Don's translation.

But I also enjoyed the way Don explained his translation choices, as it helped me think about the text. For example, in some of the translations I have read, Epicurus refers to bread and water, and in some others, to barley cakes and water. So I was interested not just in Don's translation but in his discussion of how he arrived at that translation, and how it relates to being able to enjoy simple food and also being able to enjoy gourmet meals, when the opportunity presents itself.

Thanks, TauPhi. I have downloaded. I bought the translations collection Emily Austin recommended at the end of her book (e.g. "The Epicurean Reader," Inwood and Gerson) but I will be checking this out.

This is a really great point, Cassius, and I appreciate you taking the time to post this.

One of my hobbies is Russian classical music, and Sviatoslav Richter is maybe my favorite all time piano player. Richter was pretty careful to avoid politics and pretty much concentrated on providing his artistry to as many people as possible. Yet he showed up and performed at Boris Pasternak's funeral, certainly a risky thing to do in the old Soviet Union.

For that matter, Dimitri Shostakovich was not in any way a "dissident" and to my knowledge never did anything to deliberately antagonize the authorities. Yet he helped fellow composer Mieczysław Weinberg at considerable personal risk.

Perhaps Richter and Shostakovich got away with it, like some of the things Titus Pomponius "Atticus" did, because it was obvious they were motivated by loyalty and friendship, and not being "political"?

Thanks guys!

All of those anecdotes about Atticus living in stormy political times and refusing to take sides seem oddly familiar....my wife was complaining that my brother in law has never voted and ignored politics. I thought, "Gee, that sounds pretty cool" but decided it was not safe to voice the thought.

Incidentally, the list of books in the Recommended Reading at the back of Emily Austin's book is quite good; that's how I found the Tim O'Keefe, for example.

Epicurus and His Influence on History, Ben Gazur, Pen & Sword History, 2023

I bought this book as a Kindle in December 2024 for about $4; Pen and Sword History, a publisher that publishes a lot of military history, often puts its titles on sale. I regret not publicizing here that it was on sale; I was under the impression that I bought it under the regular price. The Kindle is now about $26, but I will let everyone know if it goes on sale again.

In any event, I thought the book was worth reading. The particular focus of the book is to trace the history of Epicureanism, from the founder and through various figures in history, including the people you already know, such as Lucretius and Thomas Jefferson.

A lot of this stuff was pretty familiar to me, and my favorite bits were about two Romans I had never heard of.

I had known through reading a book called The Last Assassin: The Hunt for the Killers of Julius Caesar by Peter Stothard that many of Caesar’s killers were Epicureans. So I was interested in the book’s discussion of a couple of Roman Epicureans I was unfamiliar with who did NOT get involved with politics in the waning days of the Roman Republic.

One of the chapters of the book is about Titus Pomponius, “called Atticus for his love of all things Athenian.”Gazur says it is not certain that Atticus was an Epicurean, but at the very least it appears he was interested in Epicureanism and influenced by it. (I noticed there was a thread about him on this forum, and I will look at it after I post this).

The book says that when Julius Caesar came to Athens, he stayed at Atticus’ home. It says Atticus did not take sides in various civil wars and conflicts. It also says, “His refusal to join a band of rich men in raising funds for Caesar’s assassins led to the collapse of the attempt. But when Brutus, who was a close friend, had to flee to exile he sent him money. He would not support a friend for political reasons, but never ignored a friend in need. When Brutus himself had fallen, Atticus extended friendship to the dead man’s mother, despite the risks.”

There is also a brief mention, citing Plutarch’s Life of Brutus, about Brutus’ failed attempt to persuade “Statilius the Epicurean” to join the murder plot against Caesar. “Statilius refused because no wise man would risk danger and civil strife to help the uneducated crowds in the streets,” the book relates.

By my count, I have now read 13 books about Epicureanism since becoming interested in the philosophy after reading the Letter to Menoeceus. Here they are, with the most recently read books at the top:

Epicurus and His Influence on History, Ben Gazur
The Fourfold Remedy: Epicurus and the Art of Happiness, John Sellars.
A Few Days in Athens; being the Translation of a Greek Manuscript Discovered in Herculaneum, Frances Wright
On the Nature of Things, Lucretius, Ian Johnston translator.
Epicureanism, Tim O’Keefe.
Tending the Epicurean Garden, Hiram Crespo.
The Epicurus Reader: Selected Writings and Testimonia, Brad Inwood, Lloyd P. Gerson
Reading Lucretius in the Renaissance, Ada Palmer.
Living for Pleasure: An Epicurean Guide to Life, Emily
Austin.
How to Be an Epicurean: The Ancient Art of Living Well, Catherine Wilson.
Epicureanism: A Very Short Introduction, Catherine Wilson. 11-2021
Epicurus and His Philosophy, Norman W. DeWitt.
EPICURUS and THE PLEASANT LIFE: A Philosophy of Nature Kindle Edition– November 30, 2022 - Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition, Haris Dimitriadis

My favorite is the Emily Austin; O’Keefe’s book is a good outline of the philosophy. I got something out of each of these titles.

I have The Cambridge Companion to Epicureanism on my Kindle and will read it soon, although I am thinking of re-reading the Austin again first.

Thanks Kalosyni, and thank you, Cassius. I will make a real effort to log on more often. I haven't lost interest -- I have read 12 books about Epicureanism since I got interested a few years ago, and I am currently reading Epicurus and His Influence on History by Ben Gazur. I searched for Gazur's name on this forum and couldn't find much of anything other than "Hey, I heard there's a new book about Epicurus coming out," so I will post my comments in a few days after I read.

Thank you for posting this, I did notice it was the 20th. Are there still video get togethers on the 20th?

Joshua and Cassius both recommended "A Few Days in Athens" by Frances Wright, so I wanted to record that I did obtain a copy of it (from Project Gutenberg) and read it; I enjoyed it. Thanks to you both for the recommendation.

I lately decided that I would spend a bit of time each day reading about Epicureanism, or a book that supports my study of Epicureanism. I am currently reading "Knowledge, Reality, and Value: A Mostly Common Sense Guide to Philosophy" by Michael Huemer, because I wanted to read a primer on philosophy, thinking that such a background might aid my Epicurean studies. I tentatively plan to then re-read Emily Austin's book again, then read "The Cambridge Companion of Epicureansim" (2009), which is included in the "Suggestions for Further Reading" section of Professor Austin's book.

This is an interesting discussion, but I still wonder what can be done to bring Epicureanism to the attention of more people, so that they at least have the opportunity to find out about it. Should I try to create and post Epicurean memes on social media? Should I launch an Epicurean blog somewhere? (I ran a search for "Epicurean" to see if there are any such blogs on Substack, and all of the ones I could find with the word "Epicurean" in the title were food blogs!)

That's a comforting thought from the man himself!

But I'm not worried about me -- it's a privilege that I finally found Epicureanism. I worry about the people who will never have a chance. Stoicism may be having a moment, but Epicureanism isn't, at least yet.

I went through the forum trying to find the right place to post this, I hope I am correct.

"Self Help Is Like a Vaccine" is not an Epicurean book per se, so let me explain what the book is and why I have posted about it.

Bryan Caplan is an economist, a university professor and a blogger, and he has lately been publishing a series of books that reprint his blog posts, collected together by subject area. This is a collection of some of his advice pieces. I mention Caplan here because as I have mentioned before, I became interested in Epicureanism because Dr. Caplan recommends that everyone read the "Letter to Menoeceus."

In the new book, Caplan recommends that people "repeatedly read" the "Letter to Menoeceus" (in the "Make Your Own Bubble in 10 Easy Steps" essay). He also mentions Epicurus in a couple of other places, including referring to Epicurus as "the great Epicurus."

I like the book, but let me also say something about the main reason I am bringing it up. I discovered Buddhism when I was a teenager, and for decades I read about it, tried meditating on and off, etc. (My favorite Buddhism book is "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula).

Although obviously I have heard about Epicureanism for decades, I did not really discover the philosophy until I ran across one of Capaln's recommendations to read the "Letter to Menoeceus" (he has repeatedly recommended it!), I sat down to read it, and I realized it made a lot of sense. Since then, I have been reading one book after another about Epicureanism (I am currently reading "A Few Days in Athens" by Frances Wright.)

My point is this: I didn't read the "Letter to Menoeceus" until I was in my 60s! If only I had read it earlier!

So I think a lot lately about what we can do to bring Epicureanism to the attention of more people, turning over ideas in my mind. And as i am grateful to Caplan, I feel obliged to let y'all know about his new book.

I would certainly be interested in talking about technology, social media, etc. Please include me if you decide to go ahead with a meeting.

Have you heard of Nostr? It's a new social media platform that is supposed to be impossible to censor:

Can Nostr make Twitter’s dreams come true?

Twitter's founder says Nostr is “100 percent what we wanted”—an open, ownerless network.

reason.com

Nostr seems interesting to me and I have been trying to set up an account there, although to be honest it's relatively hard. I do worry I spend too much time on social media as it is: I am on Facebook, I am on X.com (three accounts), I have a Blue Sky account I don't use very often and I also am on Mastodon.

I do know of it and I do plan to read it. It looks very interesting!

Emily Austin's book is my favorite, too, and I also kind of like Epicurus and the Pleasant Life. Hiram Crespo's Tending the Epicurean Garden is kind of up and down for me, but it has its moments.But I also wanted to put in a good word for a book I just finished, Epicureanism by Tim O'Keefe, which has a good overview of the whole philosophy and has a big section on the ethics. It's not a very long book, but it is definitely a work of philosophy, written for people with a serious interest, although it does seem to be aimed at undergraduates.

One of my favorite historians is Christopher Beckwith, a provocative but also very interesting scholar who likes to write particularly about Eurasia and the "Silk Road." I just finished his book Empires of the Silk Road.

One of Beckwith's central ideas in the book is about the comitatus, a unit in warfare which Beckwith says was central to the armed warriors of very many different groups, including Scythians and Germans. The comitatus were the "friends" or "companions" of the king, who were expected to remain loyal to the king and to be rewarded by him. In particular (as described, for example, by Tacitus in The Germania) it was considered a complete disgrace if the leader fell in battle and any of his companions survived; they were expected to defend him to death and, if necessary, die with him. Anyone who survived was infamous for the the rest of his life. (As a quick aside, his would seem to shed light on the famous "last stand" of Leonidas and the 300 at Themopylae).

Compare with Vatican Sayings 56-57: "The wise man feels no more pain when he is tortured than when his friend is tortured and will die on his behalf; for if he betrays his friend, his entire life will be confounded and utterly upset because of a lack of confidence." (I am quoting from The Epicurus Reader by Inwood and Gerson, which I bought because Emily Austin recommended it.)

Anyway, all this is background, because I wanted to share a quote from Empires of the Silk Road. In a section suggesting that Central Eurasians influenced Chinese and Greek Philosophy, Beckwith writes, "Do the social and religious ideas of Central Eurasians, including the importance of friendship and the beliefs behind the comitatus, imply philosophical positions or interests, such as the quest for happiness, or the perfect state?"

He doesn't mention Epicureanism specifically, but it sure would seem to apply to the particular Greek philosophy we are interested in. Do any of y'all (correct English plural of "you," in Oklahoma and in the South) know of anyone else who has talked about the possible connection between the comitatus and the Epicurean idea of friendship? Beckwith kind of tosses it out there and moves on, but it seemed interesting to me.

Wanted to make sure everyone had a chance to see this interesting podcast interview with Nat Friedman on the Vesuvius scrolls project:

Interview w/ Nat Friedman on the Mysteries of the Scrolls

We are on the cusp of a New Renaissance

costofglory.substack.com

Audio is at the top, scroll down for a transcript. The project is not just a matter of sticking some money out there and waiting for someone to claim it; Friedman has been very active in managing the project.

Thought there might be some interest in this interview with classicist Mary Beard, from the New  York Times magazine:

I don’t know if this is novel to you, but in the last few years there has been a real resurgence ofpopular interest in Stoic philosophyThanks to the popularization efforts of, among others, groups like Modern Stoicism, the philosophy entrepreneur Ryan Holiday (author of “The Obstacle Is the Way”) and a wealth of Stoicism-themed podcasts. — why’d you just roll your eyes?

All to the good when people are interested in the ancient world, but this is one of the more mystifying bits of interest: clichéd self-help from a philosophy that, if you looked at it really hard, was nasty, fatalistic, bordering on fascist.

But what’s your hunch about why people are being drawn to Stoicism?

What comes out in Marcus Aurelius particularly is rather clichéd thoughts: Never take a major decision when your mind is troubled. We can all agree with clichés like that. And they come with the rubber stamp of great antiquity because they were written by an emperor — an emperor who was about as brutal in massacring the enemy as Julius Caesar. But we tend to forget that side of him because he’s a bearded “philosopher.” It’s not very salutary to look at your Amazon ratings, but I always feel terribly pleased — though it doesn’t happen often — when I’m higher up than Marcus Aurelius.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to make a suggestion. I will save this link and use it to find more books to read.

By coincidence I am currently also read a book about U.S. history, "The Vineyard of Liberty" by James MacGregor Burns, and on Page 170 there's a description of dinner at the White House: "Mr. Jefferson said that the Epicurean philosophy came nearest to the truth, in his opinion, of any ancient system of philosophy, but that it had been misnunderstood and misrepresented. He wished he work of Gassendi concerning it had been translated ... I mentioned Lucretius. He said that was only a part -- only the natural philosophy. But the moral philosophy was only to be found in Gassendi." (That's John Quincy Adams who is being quoted).

I am sorry I have not checked in very much at this Forum, but I intend to be better about that.