Posts by Kalosyni

There is Epicurus and his canonics...and wondering if there is a name or label for the part which says to be sure you are bringing up multiple hypothoses and do not settle too quickly onto one explanation for causes of phenomenon? ( Cassius ?)

Seems like it might be good to also compare Epicurus to science. And also to be clear about pseudoscience.

So we can study the extant texts of Epicurus, but we live now in modern times, so we have a much more evolved understanding of the world.

Being clear what is good science, what is scientism, and what is pseudoscience ...being clear on these would be good for the modern Epicurean ...so that we can be certain about things and not ambivalent/skeptical about the world that we now live in.

Just for fun here is a wikipedia entry on "Scientism":

Scientism - Wikipedia

"Nor does it make you more thirsty with every drink; it slakes the thirst by a natural cure, – a cure that demands no fee."

I think this is dealing with the idea of excess, as with intoxication by alcohol (and the feeling of wanting yet another drink) and the fee that is paid comes the next morning with a bad hang-over.

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In contrast to the Greek ideal, the Romans had drinking habits that encouraged excessive consumption of wine, such as:

• They began drinking before meals on empty stomachs.
• They consumed excessive quantities of wine and food, and then vomited so that they had room for more.
• They played drinking games, including one where somebody would drink as many cups of wine as a throw of a dice indicated.

Clearly, in the first and second centuries BC, it was not uncommon to encounter intoxication among Greeks and Romans. However, initially it was not a universal vice and famous people like Cato the Elder and Julius Caesar only took wine in moderation. As moral values associated with drinking continued to decay, the habit of excessive drinking became more widespread.

Source

Quote from Cassius

As I see it, heart of the doctrine is that "full cannot be made more full no matter how long the time frame." If that is correct, then the analogy of it being impossible to make a full vessel being made "more full" over time applies no matter what is placed inside it.

Therefore:

Pleasure = a feeling of satisfaction and a state of being satisfied.

And now I recall what Seneca wrote regarding the Epicurean philosophy:

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"This garden," he [the caretaker of the Garden] says, "does not whet your appetite; it quenches it. Nor does it make you more thirsty with every drink; it slakes the thirst by a natural cure, – a cure that demands no fee.

....The belly will not listen to advice; it makes demands, it importunes. And yet it is not a troublesome creditor; you can send it away at small cost, provided only that you give it what you owe, not merely all you are able to give.

Source

We aren't sure how the moon formed and here are three current hypotheses:

Wishing Everyone a Happy Twentieth!

(And today is the 55th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing!)

Tonight we memorialize Epicurus and Metrodorus as always, and we give special attention to Titus Pomponius Atticus, friend of Cicero, and Siro of Naples, teacher of Philodemus, as per our Memorial Calendar.

Here is the section on the moon, from Letter to Pythocles:

94] The wanings of the moon and its subsequent waxings might be due to the revolution of its own body, or equally well to successive conformations of the atmosphere, or again to the interposition of other bodies; they may be accounted for in all the ways in which phenomena on earth invite us to such explanations of these phases; provided only one does not become enamoured of the method of the single cause and groundlessly put the others out of court, without having considered what it is possible for a man to observe and what is not, and desiring therefore to observe what is impossible. Next the moon may have her light from herself or from the sun.

[95] For on earth too we see many things shining with their own, and many with reflected light. Nor is any celestial phenomenon against these explanations, if one always remembers the method of manifold causes and investigates hypotheses and explanations consistent with them, and does not look to inconsistent notions and emphasize them without cause and so fall back in different ways on different occasions on the method of the single cause. The impression of a face in the moon may be due to the variation of its parts or to interposition or to any one of many causes which might be observed, all in harmony with phenomena.

[96] For in the case of all celestial phenomena this process of investigation must never be abandoned - for if one is in opposition to clear-seen facts, he can never have his part in true peace of mind.

Quote from Don

My little project will be to list those out when I get a chance to see how Άπειρος gets used and translated... Since Epicurus appears to call us to study these ideas.

I find it interesting that αρχή is a limit, the beginnings or foundations, and άπειρος is something without limits.

Could this be connected with the idea of determining what is possible and what is not possible?

Also, what is in the imagination of the mind (infinity) vs. what has physical potential (that which has limits and boundaries) ?

Also, fear and anxiety arises when a person (especially a child) does not understand the nature of the physical world and starts imagining all sorts of bad things.

Just thinking about practical applications.

This article seems relevant...from the introduction:

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• Thoughts of the infinite have mesmerized and confounded human beings through the millennia.
• The concept of infinity remains a controversial and paradoxical topic today, galvanizing international conferences and heated scholarly disputes.
• In his book Probable Impossibilities: Musings on Beginnings and Endings, Alan Lightman explores the history of the concept of infinity and how it’s been contemplated by thinkers across various disciplines.

Why the paradoxes of infinity still puzzle us today

In his "Probable Impossibilities", Alan Lightman explores the history of infinity and how it's been contemplated by various thinkers.

bigthink.com

Excerpt from the article:

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For astronomers, the question is whether outer space goes on and on and on and on ad infinitum. And if it does, as cosmologists now believe, unsettling consequences abound. For one, there should be an infinite number of copies of each of us somewhere out there in the cosmos. Because even a situation of minuscule probability—like the creation of a particular individual’s exact arrangement of atoms—when multiplied by an infinite number of trials, repeats itself an infinite number of times. Infinity multiplied by any number (except 0) equals infinity.

Just for fun, I will add clickable links to info on the modern scientific understanding of the phenomenon listed in the Letter to Pythocles.

Infinite worlds and how they come into being (?)

How the sun, moon, and stars came into being - three hypothesis on how the moon was formed

The size of the sun, moon, and other stars

The risings and settings of the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies

The tropics of sun and moon [The farthest points from the equator where the Sun can appear directly overhead are referred to as the tropics?]

The wanings of the moon and its subsequent waxings, and the source of the moon's light

The impression of a face in the moon [why the same side faces Earth]

The eclipse of sun and moon

The regularity of the periods of the heavenly bodies

The successive changes in the length of nights and days [and seasons]

Signs of the weather - clouds, rain, thunder, lightening and thunderbolts, wind, cyclones, [tornado] / waterspouts, hail, snow, dew, ice, rainbows, a halo around the moon

Earthquakes

Comets

Stationary stars

Wandering stars [planets]

Falling stars

Signs of the weather given by certain animals

I looked up "curule" and found a wikipedia entry on it!

Here is the first paragraph:

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In the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, the curule chair (sella curulis, supposedly from currus, "chariot") was the seat upon which magistrates holding imperium were entitled to sit. This includes dictators, magistri equitum, consuls, praetors, curule aediles, and the promagistrates, temporary or de facto holders of such offices.

Here is a work-in-progress outline for a course on the Ethics of Epicurus. (I will be adding in more details, and still needing to incorporate the above tips by Don, and others, as well as add in from Cassius' wiki list: Epicurean Ethics).

The Ethics of Epicurus 7 Week Course

Week 1: Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy Basics

Topics:

• Epicurus' life and historical context
• Brief overview of basic concepts: a materialist universe of "atoms and void" and Epicurean canonics (senses, feelings, and anticipations)
• no supernatural gods and everything has natural causes (non-supernature nature of the universe)
• the nature of the soul, and death is the end of both the body and soul.

Readings:

• "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt – Chapter 2: "Samos and Athens"
• "Philosophy for the Millions" essay by Norman DeWitt

Week 2: The Nature of Pleasure and Pain

Topics:

• The definition of pleasure and pain based on sensation, and Nature's goal.
• Pleasure as the telos (highest good).
• The absence of pain as pleasure. Reframing the cognition of pleasure - there is no neutral state, so if you are not feeling pain then that is understood as feeling pleasure.
• The limits of pleasure and pain, and dealing with physical pain.
• The relationship of happiness to pleasure.
• Types of Desires: natural and necessary desires, natural but unnecessary desires, and vain desires.
• Choice and Avoidance - circumstance and outcome determines choiceworthiness.
• Continuous pleasure - the role of making and recalling happy memories.

Readings:

• Letter to Menoeceus
• https://newepicurean.com/the-true-natur…urean-pleasure/
• Cicero's "On Ends" Torquatus section

Week 3: The Role of Virtue

Topics:

• The relationship between virtue and pleasure, instrumental value of virtues - tools not rules.
• “Good” and “evil” according to Epicurus.
• Prudence and Temperance, and how Epicurean beliefs lead to ethical living. "Moderation in all things" is an incorrect way to make choices -- prudence uses reason as well as evaluation or pleasure/pain and unique circumstances.
• Justice and how the choice of non-harming leads to a pleasant life.
• Courage - sometimes short-term pain must be endured to for the most pleasant outcome (or to avoid a worse pain) or for the health of the body

Readings:

      
Week 4: The Epicurean View of Gods and Death; Nature, Science, and Well-Being

Topics:

• Epicurean views on god(s)
• Working through the fear of death
• Nature and natural causes (no supernatural forces)
• Science vs Epicurean canonics (and the ancient idea of observations followed by hypothesis)
• Dealing with the incorrect notion of the need to find meaning (this comes out of Christianity or a lack of social connection)
• The "Epicurean Trilemma" (which was not originated by Epicurus)
• Removing religious anxieties of death and god (the nature of death and the soul) and developing rapport with Nature.

Readings:

Week 5: Friendship, Community, and Reverence for the Wise Man

Topics:

• Importance of friendship, social bonds, and community in achieving a pleasurable life.
• The role of studying together and the Twentieth celebration as community sustaining rituals.
• The role of honoring those who are wise in Epicurean understanding and practice.
• Tips on how to create strong friendships.

Readings:

Week 6: Freedom, Personal Agency, Self-Sufficiency, Tranquility vs Risk-taking, and Clear-minded Living

Topics:

• Definition of autarky
• Free will and personal responsibility - free will frees us from determinism and fate.
• Further discussion on choices and avoidances (natural, natural and necessary, natural and unnecessary, unnatural: vain/empty and unnecessary
• Risk-taking as an individual choice (there is only this life)
• Sound mind in a healthy body

Readings:

Week 7: Applying the Philosophy of Epicurus in Modern Daily Life

Topics:

• Choice and avoidance and practical applications (thinking through career choices, marriage or staying single, and discussion of other practical dilemmas)
• Living with non-Epicureans who are religious or believe in supernatural powers
• The avoidance of being in the spotlight (pros and cons)
• Tips for starting an Epicurean philosophy study group

Readings:

Quote from Cassius

Maybe this thread "Give Us An Example of A God!" should come after examination of "Give Us An Example of A Prolepsis!"

fyi...Don started this thread not too long ago:

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Prolepsis Citations from Long & Sedley

This thread is an offshoot of this thread:

RE: Episode 234 - Cicero's OTNOTG - 09 - Dealing With Marcus Aurelius And The Canonical Basis For the Epicurean View Of Divinity In dealing with the prolepseis over there, I decided to turn to Long & Sedley's The Hellenistic Philosophers (which is available to borrow on Internet Archive with a free account) to see what they have to say. It turns out they cite a number of instances of mention of the prolepseis/preconceptions. Their numbering system (ex.…

Don

July 2, 2024 at 11:04 PM

At the link I posted above (in post 29) I found a transcript further down that page, and found this:

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For the Greeks, dreams were not imagined stories or even narratives, they were actually real visitations, the gods or the Oneiroi appearing to them as a vision. So I want to read you a passage from the book An Ancient Dream Manual by Peter Thonemann. I think he does a really perfect job of explaining how the Greeks understood dreams. He says,

“Greek and Roman authors do not speak of ‘having a dream’ or ‘dreaming that x happened’, but rather of ‘seeing a dream’, where the dream is objectified or personified as a thing or person that appears to the dreamer in his or her sleep. The archetypal Greek or Roman dream is therefore not an experience…but a kind of apparition.”

OK, but that’s not to say that what appears in the dream is necessarily literal for the dreamer.

As Thonemann continues, “In their dreams [they] ‘see’ a sequence of discrete and isolated dream-elements (an eagle, a flock of sheep, a whale), each of which is then individually decoded as a symbolic representation of a person or thing in their waking world.”

Perhaps there were those who had a feeling that dreams of gods were part of reality, vs. those who saw dreams as only symbolic.

Quote from Twentier

Eh, I don't know. I really want to dream about Zeus once and put an end to it.

@Twentier you may like this...and it looks like the main explanation is a podcast recording...I only listened to the first ten minutes, but it seems like it may have some good stuff!

Hypnos & the Poppy: Ancient Greek Dream Incubation — Mira Karakitsou

In this episode, we’ll be meeting the Greek gods of Night, Sleep, and Dreams — Nyx, Hypnos, the Oneiroi, Mnemosyne, and more. We’ll explore dream rituals in…

atemplewild.com

So it seems to me that Absurdism is very much coming out a feeling of an absence of meaning.

I recall that Joshua said both on a podcast and somewhere on the forum, that trying to find meaning was actually a very recent occurrence...was it not until sometime in the 1800's ? (I need to find that thread, or Joshua can you remind me what you said about the history of the question of the meaning of life?)

And I wonder if it comes from western civilization's paradigm of passing through Christianity. Christianity has us live this life only as a kind of preparation for an eternity in heaven. But when you question and reject the existence of God and heaven, you can be left with a kind of "now what?" It's like telling someone "Don't think of elephants" and all you can do is think of elephants. So then we need a new paradigm, and perhaps a modern Epicureanism is exactly what is needed.

Quote from Kalosyni

To be more clear, I would say no, that pleasures of the mind are not more important - they are equally important.

And something else to add...it is always contextual, so sometimes mental is more important and sometimes physical is more important. (I apologize for the disjointed reply).

Cassius could explain this better I think.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I have a question Kalosyni I have heard somewhere that Epicurus favoured the pleasures of the mind over the pleasures of body, is that true ?

In some sense you could say that is true: if your mind is full of anxiety then you cannot fully experience and savor the pleasures of the body.

But there is the quote by Diogenes Laertius Book 10, states that Epicurus says: [Section 06] ‘I know not how I can conceive the good, if I withdraw the pleasures of taste and withdraw the pleasures of love and those of hearing and sight.’

To be more clear, I would say no, that pleasures of the mind are not more important - they are equally important.

Because daily you are experiencing both physical and mental pleasures. If you said that mental pleasure was more important, you then would have to try to suppress or avoid the naturally occuring enjoyment of various daily activities.

Quote from UnPaid_Landlord

I have a question Kalosyni I have heard somewhere that Epicurus favoured the pleasures of the mind over the pleasures of body, is that true ?

In some sense you could say that is true: if your mind is full of anxiety then you cannot fully experience and savor the pleasures of the body.

But there is the quote by Diogenes Laertius Book 10, states that Epicurus says: [Section 06] ‘I know not how I can conceive the good, if I withdraw the pleasures of taste and withdraw the pleasures of love and those of hearing and sight.’

UnPaid_Landlord wecome to the forum!

Just a heads up, that we do have a monthly meet-and-greet via Zoom which happens every first Monday of each month. This meeting is open to Introductory Members and provides an opportunity to meet others who are studying the philosophy of Epicurus. We also have a special Epicurean topic of discussion every month, which provides an opportunity to engage in live Zoom-time philosophizing!

Here is the link to find out more (next meeting will happen on August 5th):

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First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Hour (Overview) - 2024

Firstmoinda33_0000.png General Overview:

Join us on the first Monday of every month for our forum-wide meet-and-greet and Epicurean philosophy discussion, for registered members of EpicureanFriends.com. Each month we present a special discussion topic, and these will be announced in the dedicated thread for each specific meeting.

For new members who have not attended any previous Zoom meetings: please be sure that you have posted in your personal Welcome Thread, with an introduction of yourself…

Kalosyni

December 26, 2023 at 2:48 PM

*************************************************

**Posts addressing Absurdism have been copied/moved.

**Please post all responses to continued discussion on Absurdism over in this new thread:

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The Absurdity of Absurdism (?)

Welcome! UnPaid_Landlord

[…]

Ha! You're not the only one. Now there are at least three of us here thinking about Absurdism. I don't know exactly what's the link, but I always found Absurdism interesting. Maybe Epicureanism and Absurdism are like moths and fire or peanut better and jelly or something... probably not.

Anyway, if someone wants 10 mins introduction to Absurdism in humorous yet surprisingly insightful way, follow the link. (warning: Parental Advisory Explicit Content)

…

TauPhi

July 4, 2024 at 9:03 PM