Posts by Matteng

Hello,

For the context: I ´ve moved from the stoic camp to the epicurean and I am learning the Epicurean principles.

In metaphysics and epistemology the Epicurean have in my opionion the better and more realistic approach.

Now I dive more into the ethics.

In ethics I wonder if Pleasure involves personal values besides the "pure bodily" pleasures.

(There is a citation which says: Beside the pleasures of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching... .I would not know any pleasure)

But I think I get it wrong.

Where are personal values in the Epicurean pleasure concept if they are there ?

Because I see virtue as a means to fulfill these values which give me pleasure (maybe thats the answer, a wide interpratation of pleasure ? )

Beside the pure sense-pleasures, I value for example that:

-I am not addicted to something/someone

-value friends/familiy, progress in society,

-have compassiong for humans and animals

-love to learn new things and philosophy (like Epicurus), learning about nature, value/ like to improve abilities.

Are that "pleasures of the soul" ?

Or are these values part of "virtue" ? That virtue gives pleasure ?

Hi,

I come from the stoic camp and cross over not as an scout but as an deserter ( based on a Senece quote )

I think these are the main points for the popularity:

- There is a divine rest in nature (like in the deep respect of Einstein (see Einsteins God, natural forces/laws, string theory, M theory .....)

- Success of modern Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

- Rationality science friendly

- Social, Connection of all humans, nature, political responsibility ....

But I think 1. all these aspects are even in Epicurean philosophy but more realistic/naturalistic/scientific.

For example

- a deep respect for nature but without divinity/God/fate/plan;

- taking reason to question thoughts/actions/judgments and using psychologic techniques when useful for pleasure etc. not everything is an opinion (like in CBT );

- Rational (+ importance of empirism/sense data) and social (friendly, justice is important, but not metaphysical, so more realistic )

And 2. It is so good that Epicurus binds pleasure and virtue together, with pleasure as the end:

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Example:

Say there is a competion between a Stoic and Epicurean in staying out in the cold in winter.

Why does the Stoic this ? -> For the sake of virtue ( courage, moderation)

Why does the Epicurean do this ? -> Maybe for better health, sustain pleasure and choose a little pain for it.

So let´s say after 2 hours a medical practitioner would come and says, that a longer stay would risk your health, you should stop that.

=> The Epicurean uses his prudence/wisdom to choose that it´s enough for the pleasure of health and stops it.

=> The Stoic: Health ? It´s a preferred indifferent, to train virtue like (courage/endurance/moderation ) is the highest value (Stoic wisdom). But when to stop ?

Only when virtue can´t be trained any further, maybe by fainting, loosing consciousness .... ?

Or dying because of freezing ? But ok life/death is even an indifferent...... Virtue is the highest goal.

So the Stoic would be irrational ?

Stoic: "But not so fast : Even the Epicurean has to use prudence/wisdom/virtue for his decision to stop because it is in complete control, pain / pleasure / health are not... And pain will not say you when it is enough freezing, so why concentrate on any other in life as virtue ?."

Epicurean: "Yes, but my prudence values life/pleasure/health as goods, not virtue, because virtue as an instrument has no limit to calculate on, it is never enough it is abstract. I have trained endurance, the virtues and my health, you can loose everything if you freeze to death for virtue, on pleasure/pain and related goods you can calculate your optimum and limits".

= > So to live pleasantly you need to live virtuously and vice versa.

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What to you think ? Have I understand it right ?