Posts by Don

And Happy First Sunday after the First Full Moon immediately following the Spring Equinox for those who celebrate!

Quote from Kalosyni

Don any thoughts on this? Maybe you have something to add about the use of negation in ancient Greek language, and the pattern of words that often occurs?

I'm sorry, Kalosyni. This flew under my radar. I don't have any thoughts off the top of my head, but I'm intrigued. I'll share any I might discover. Maybe Bryan or Eikadistes would have thoughts?

That said, great posts here on this thread. Y'all are providing some solid summaries of the "absence of pain" idea.

Rolf For recently joining our little online Garden, your contributions are insightful and greatly appreciated. Glad to have you aboard.

Quote from Rolf

what would happen to Epicurus’ argument on the existence of life across the universe if we somehow ruled out the existence of life beyond earth?

I don't see any way to rule out the existence of life beyond earth. It's like the analogy (not sure if still current but it likely is) of dipping a cup in the ocean to find if there are fish in the ocean. "Nope, no fish in the ocean!" We've only examined a miniscule infinitesimally small sample of the universe for life elsewhere so far. Also, the chemistry doesn't seem to be all that difficult to get things going. I find it harder to believe there is no life elsewhere than I do to believe life is abundant in the Universe.

Sounds more promising than the "phosphine on Venus" findings from several years ago. But 124 light years away It sounds like it could be giant mats of floating algae or something.

I'm holding out a glimmer of hope for the Europa Clipper mission!

Europa Clipper - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll also offer...

Aphorism - Wikipedia

... if someone is looking for examples.

Quote from Rolf

Woah, I was following until this part. What's the logic here?

  Cassius "...even to the point of conquering death." drops the mic, walks offstage.

The Meditation of the Unstubbed Toe.

That's a title for something that needs to be written

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Don

if you just avoided it or are remembering a time that you almost stubbed your toe

You would have to remember stubbing your toe badly to gain any pleasure from not stubbing your toe.

Good point. Although you could also remember seeing someone else badly stub their toe.

Quote from Cassius

tackle the wikipedia editors

We are ALL (potential) Wikipedia editors. Just throwing that out there.

Great discussion, and one that can never be revisited too many times. This topic is always an opportunity to revise, rethink, and refocus. Here's my perspective (as of, checks clock, 7:02 am on a random Wednesday morning):

Epicurus places a correct understanding of the gods in a place of paramount and foundational importance in his philosophy. It is the first Principal Doctrine. It is discussed first in the Letter to Menoikeus. And so on.

However, what is shown to be paramount and foundational is the firm knowledge and conviction that:

• the universe was not created by gods
• the gods neither bestow blessings nor dole out punishment
• Therefore, we have nothing to fear from the gods

Epicurus reasons all these out, but this is specifically to get rid of the fear of the gods so prevalent in so many people, both in ancient times and still in our own.

That said, whether you take a realist or idealist position on Epicurean gods is secondary - in my opinion. David Sedley is the main popularizer of this position, but I believe it was floating around prior to his and A.A. Long's exposition of it. I usually go to Lucretius point about "you can use Bacchus to refer to wine, Ceres to refer to the grain harvest, etc, but know you're using metaphors" kind of thing. I can walk into a cathedral and be awed by the grandeur. That doesn't mean I need to accept the theology inherent in the architecture. I can enjoy religious music but don't need to believe in gods. I probably think of myself as a functional atheist. I find it unlikely there are gods of any kind with an objective physical existence. Are there aliens more intelligent than humans? Sure, I can believe that. But they are not "gods" but simply other beings in the infinite universe.

Quote from Rolf

As an avid fan of Wikipedia

Agreed. WP is a wonderful tool, and I highly encourage anyone - especially librarians and educators - interested in it to edit the online encyclopedia to understand how it works in practice.

Quote from Rolf

I've dipped my toes into Buddhism, Taoist, Christianity, Absurdism, and Stoicism, among other ideas. And yet, nothing has ever felt quite right, at least not for extended periods of time.

You're in good company. Many who found their way here have "dipped their toes" in all those streams, especially Buddhism and Stoicism.

Quote from Rolf

Currently I'm reading Austin's book Living for pleasure as recommended here

Great introduction. Austin's book, in my opinion, is the most approachable and practical introduction to the philosophy in print right now.

Quote from Rolf

Honestly, I wasn’t planning to post at all

That's how I started out here, too. It didn't take long until I started taking part in the forum and asking questions and offering my perspective. We all try to be welcoming, and I continue to see this forum as a unique place online where open, frank, thoughtful discussion of Epicurus and his philosophy is taken seriously.

As I said above, welcome aboard!

The Wikipedia article is a mess. If you have the time to edit with supporting citations, go for it. I've been editing Wikipedia off and on for - checks userpage - yikes! - 15+ years, but haven't had the chance or inclination to wade into the potential edit battles that would ensue in trying to steer that specific article into a better direction.

Quote from Rolf

Hmm, related question I’m pondering this morning: Is NOT stubbing your toe pleasurable?

I would say thinking about not stubbing your toe is pleasurable, for instance, if you just avoided it or are remembering a time that you almost stubbed your toe or if your friend tells you about their painful stub you realize you're glad you didn't stub yours (at the same time commiserating with your friend). I don't think there's a state of non-stubbing that somehow exists outside of specific contexts.

Quote from Rolf

If he really meant that the goal was an ascetic, zombie-like state of painlessness, it would make no sense for him to talk about the enjoyment of luxuries right before.

Well stated!

Okay, as an experiment, I've added Epicurist as the translation of ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ on my avatar. Just trying it on for size.

I had the thought that I kind of like the parallel with "scientist." Epicurist philosophy? Epicuric philosophy? I realize this wordplay swims against centuries of usage of "Epicurean" so I don't expect it to "catch on." But play is pleasure so let's play a little. Let's be real: the name of the website is EpicureanFriends after all

Citations from Oxford English Dictionary (earliest 1579):

1579 Which fantasie that good man Epicurus, and all Epicuristes [Dutch Epicuristen] haue likewise followed, and stoutlie defended.

G. Gilpin, translation of P. van Marnix van Sant Aldegonde, Bee Hiue of Romishe Church 107

1610 Were not the Epicurists [Latin Epicurei] in great accoumpt at Athens?

J. Healey, translation of St. Augustine, Citie of God xviii. xli. 729

1787 I was ready to cry out with the Epicurist.

W. Wallbeck, Fables Ded. p. xxi

1860 He did not pause with the speculative Epicurists, who care to follow an idea only so far as it makes things easy.

Dial April 259

1967 The Epicurists and some Stoics condoned suicide because they embraced the point of view that death is the cure for all ills.

Psychoanalytic Review vol. 54 424

2011To concentrate on the present, a practice the Stoics and Epicurists valued greatly.

C. Dunker, Constit. Psychoanalytic Clinic v. 121

Epicurist also echoes ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epikoureios) more than Epicurean to my eyes/ears.

And Latin Ĕpĭcūrēus

epicurist - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

PS. I'm not actually actively advocating for using "Epicurist" as an alternative to "Epicurean." Just pointing out the potential. I like Godfrey 's co-opting of the co-opting.

Quote

As Lucretius summarizes in book two of On The Nature of Things, Epicurists believe the ultimate good for human nature is as follows:

To avoid bodily pain, to have a mind free from anxiety and fear, and to enjoy the pleasures of the senses.

I'm curious to read the whole article, but I saw this quote above and found it intriguing.

1. I never thought of the word "Epicurist" but it's certainly more compact than "student of Epicurean philosophy."

2. I was initially reluctant to endorse that summary, but, on reflection, that's not a bad summary. Let me explain my perspective:

To avoid bodily pain - As long as this is interpreted to mean "avoid" and not eliminate. "Epicurists" make choices to experience pain to avoid more future pain.

to have a mind free from anxiety and fear - I may get pushback, but I still see this as an essential part of the philosophy. A mind free from anxiety and fear is a baseline to make prudent choices and to fully experience sensual pleasures.

to enjoy the pleasures of the senses - Yep, in all their multifariousness.

This is all with the caveat that ANY summary is reductive and comes with issues, ex. the Tetrapharmakos. I remain an advocate for that summary while also acknowledging its shortcomings.

Joshua asked about the Greek word for "weight" in the characteristics of the atom: βάρος (baros). From which we get words like barometric, barometer "instrument for measuring the weight or pressure of the atmosphere," barophobia "an abnormal fear of gravity."

ὁ γενναῖος περὶ σοφίαν καὶ φιλίαν μάλιστα γίγνεται, ὧν τὸ μέν ἐστι νοητον ἀγαθόν, τὸ δὲ ἀθάνατον.

"One who is noble in mind (ὁ γενναῖος) most of all depends upon wisdom (σοφίαν) and friendship (φιλίαν) — one is a good perceptible to the mind, thinkable, and imaginable; the other, everlasting and perpetual."

ἀθάνατον literally means "un-dying" or "not subject to death." I've taken than as the wisdom we acquire dies with us; but friendship with others has ripples that outlive us. The impact we have on our friends lives on after we die.