Posts by Don

I think we have to entertain the possibility that THE katastematic pleasures are simply ataraxia and aponia.

Ataraxia is the tranquility of mind that results from ridding one's mind of fears of death and the gods and obtaining a proper understanding of natural phenomena, and so on. I'm working on a good description of aponia. It's not just "freedom from pain" in a banal sense.

Ataraxia becomes the background of our experience. Once we really lock it in (*really* and truly lock it in!! I know I'm not there yet!), we approach our all our other experiences with that stability and tranquility of mind that can't be shaken or taken away.

The kinetic/katastematic distinction, from my perspective, was most helpful in distinguishing the Epicurus's school from the Cyrenaics. It established the Garden as embracing ALL pleasure as the good, not just the kinetic of the Cyrenaics.

Quote from Cassius

The trouble is that *kinetic* does tend to imply "in motion" and *katastematic* implies ....

Stability.

PS. I should have read further down before replying You raise some interesting points.

It's all about context. Self-defense? To prevent them from killing others? Etc etc etc.

For the record, I have no doubt that Epicurus and all the classical Epicureans made this distinction. Primarily from DL 10.136:

The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : "Peace of mind and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest ; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity."

plus other references in Metrodorus and other texts.

That said, off the top of my head, I agree with Cassius that feelings of gratitude would be a kinetic pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

HA! Not ONLY of Plato:

Touché, mon ami! Well played!

Quote from Cassius

collecting maxims of the golden words of Epicurus

Oh, and the Greek title of the Vatican collection of sayings is the prosaic "Epicurus's mode of speaking" as in, as I see it, "This is the kind of things Epicurus and Metrodorus would say and how they said it." Golden? You're thinking of Plato

Quote from Cassius

if I were collecting maxims of the golden words of Epicurus I suspect I would have found one a little more useful about pleasure or death or the gods to include, and left that one out

There's also VS36:

Thread

VS36 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and commentary

Manuscript

This "Vatican Saying" doesn't get referenced a lot. In fact, before working through the list, I don't know if I ever came across it!

Saint-Andre doesn't include it in his list as it's obviously NOT a saying of Epicurus. Here is Bailey's transcription, translation, and commentary:

Bailey






We're familiar with αυταρκειας (autarkeias "self-sufficiency" or "self-reliance"), but ημεροτητος (hemerotetos) is "gentleness, kindness (of the greatest kind)."

Bailey's comment "Epicurus fully…

Don

October 23, 2023 at 10:26 PM

That's not exactly a deep philosophical insight.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Seems to me this would be talking about epitomes and summaries vs full lectures and books, e.g., letter to Herodotus vs the books of On Nature.

Yes I'd say it "could," but if I were collecting maxims of the golden words of Epicurus I suspect I would have found one a little more useful about pleasure or death or the gods to include, and left that one out

Maybe, but I'd be interested to see how prevalent the practice of epitomes and summaries were in other contemporary philosophical schools. If other schools only advocated long discourses or long dialectical sessions, Epicurus would have to have defended the proposition that both long and short forms strive toward the same place.

Quote from Cassius

Any kind of argument from "authority" where people are supposed to accept a conclusion that they cannot themselves understand as opposed to what their own senses tell them is going to be highly scrutinized.

This seems connected with what I've been doing on VS27:

Post

RE: VS27 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 with some commentary

Here's my very literal translation of 27A/B:

27A: Επὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων · μόλις τελειωθεῖσιν ὁ καρπὸς ἔρχεται

μὲν and δὲ connect two phrases, with a very clunky translation being "on the one hand... On the other hand ..." Sometimes these can be untranslated or paraphrased. Here I'm going clunky to be very literal

ὁ καρπὸς (ho karpos) "the fruit, harvest, grain". This word is related to the word that shows up in Latin in "carpe diem."

τῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων pursuits but also…

Don

October 25, 2023 at 6:44 AM

The saying uses the word gnosis "knowing, understanding" and not just accepting.

Here's my very literal translation of 27A/B:

27A: Επὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων · μόλις τελειωθεῖσιν ὁ καρπὸς ἔρχεται

μὲν and δὲ connect two phrases, with a very clunky translation being "on the one hand... On the other hand ..." Sometimes these can be untranslated or paraphrased. Here I'm going clunky to be very literal

ὁ καρπὸς (ho karpos) "the fruit, harvest, grain". This word is related to the word that shows up in Latin in "carpe diem."

τῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων pursuits but also vocations, work, practices, habits, etc.

τελειωθεῖσιν (teleiōtheisin) is related to τέλος (telos) as in bringing something to its ultimate goal or end, hence bringing something to perfection. So, in this case, it means something like practicing other crafts or pursuits to perfection. The thing that comes immediately to my mind (for whatever reason) is playing the guitar. Seeing YouTube videos on music theory breaking down complicated rock pieces shows how much it takes to really perfect the technique of playing guitar.

27A. On the one hand, in the case of other pursuits, the fruit comes for one only just upon complete perfection.

27B. Επὶ δὲ φιλοσοφίας συντρέχει τῇ γνώσει τὸ τερπνόν · οὐ γὰρ μετὰ μάθησιν ἀπόλαυσις, ἀλλὰ ἅμα μάθησις καὶ ἀπόλαυσις.

γνώσει (gnōsei) knowing, understanding. Where we get gnosis, Gnostic, prognosis, etc. in English.

συντρέχει literally means "run together" as in a race. To get this across, I'm going to use "teams up" in my translation.

τὸ τερπνόν is enjoyment, delight. This is a new word for me.

ἀπόλαυσις is the enjoyment of delight in having the advantage of the fruition of something, echoing the ὁ καρπὸς in the previous section without repeating it.

27B. On the other hand, in the case of loving and practicing wisdom, the enjoyment teams up with knowing (understanding); for enjoyment of the fruition is not after learning, but learning and enjoyment of the fruit is simultaneous.

If one wants to run them together:

On the one hand, in the case of other pursuits, the fruit comes for one only just upon complete perfection. On the other hand, in the case of loving and practicing wisdom, the enjoyment teams up with knowing; for enjoyment of the fruition is not after learning, but learning and enjoyment of the fruit is simultaneous.

This blog entry has a good take on this/these saying(s):

Seems to me this would be talking about epitomes and summaries vs full lectures and books, e.g., letter to Herodotus vs the books of On Nature.

Manuscript:

DigiVatLib

Well, well... This is interesting.

Take a look at Saint-Andre's translation and transcription:

Whereas other pursuits yield their fruit only to those who have practiced them to perfection, in the love and practice of wisdom knowledge is accompanied by delight; for here enjoying comes along with learning, not afterward.

ἐπὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων μόλις τελειωθεῖσιν ὁ καρπὸς ἔρχεται, ἐπὶ δὲ φιλοσοφίας συντρέχει τῇ γνώσει τὸ τερπνόν· οὐ γὰρ μετὰ μάθησιν ἀπόλαυσις, ἀλλὰ ἅμα μάθησις καὶ ἀπόλαυσις.

Now, look at the manuscript...

VS27 is actually split in two in the manuscript! Those two big red Epsilons split what we know as VS27 into to pieces:

27A: Επὶ μὲν τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων · μόλις τελειωθεῖσιν ὁ καρπὸς ἔρχεται

27B. Επὶ δὲ φιλοσοφίας συντρέχει τῇ γνώσει τὸ τερπνόν · οὐ γὰρ μετὰ μάθησιν ἀπόλαυσις, ἀλλὰ ἅμα μάθησις καὶ ἀπόλαυσις.

which translates to:

27A: On the one hand, in the case of other pursuits, they yield their fruit only to those who have practiced them to perfection

27B: On the other hand, in the case of the love and practice of wisdom, knowledge (τῇ γνώσει) is accompanied by delight; for here enjoying comes along with learning, not afterward.

Note that this saying uses ἀπόλαυσις, which is the same word used in the letter to Menoikeus when talking about taking pleasure in something. Here it's a positive, in Menoikeus it's not as positive. How the same word can be used in so different ways is still beyond me for now. ἀπολαύσει, at its most basic meaning, is the “act of enjoying, fruition” or the “result of enjoying, pleasure.” This implies enjoying the benefit of something, as discussed in Menoikeus 124 and 130 with the additional meaning of “advantage got from a thing.” All those meanings are at play here in VS27.

Bailey's translation and commentary (and Cassius talks about this in the other thread in this section on VS27):

In all other occupations the fruit comes painfully after completion, but in philosophy pleasure goes hand in hand with knowledge; for enjoyment does not follow comprehension, but comprehension and enjoyment are simultaneous.

I don't see anything to justify "painfully" at least at first pass.

Again, Bailey is trying to claim a status of a higher pleasure for philosophy, a superiority.

For Diogenes of Oenoanda, it must be referring to:

Examples of coincident causes are [solid] and liquid nourishment and, in addition to these, [sexual acts:] we do not eat [food] and experience pleasure afterwards, nor do we drink wine and experience pleasure afterwards, nor do we emit semen and experience pleasure afterwards; rather the action brings about these pleasures for us immediately, without awaiting the future.

even though this is not fr. xxvi., at least in the website translation.

Saint-Andre:

26. Understand that a long discourse and a short one both achieve the same result.

δεῖ διαλαβεῖν ὅτι καὶ ὁ πολὺς λόγος καὶ ὁ βραχὺς εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ συντείνει.

Manuscript:

DigiVatLib

Bailey:

While I don't necessarily disagree with Bailey's conclusion, I think it's important to read that commentary as "This is *probably* an extract from a private letter and *probably* refers to the philosopher's own works." NOTE that there is no τελος in the manuscript!! Bailey includes it, but it's not in Vat.gr.1950! The manuscript reads:

Δεῖ διαλαβεῖν ὅτι καὶ ὁ πολὺς λόγος καὶ ὁ βραχὺς εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ συντείνει.

just as Saint-Andre has the transcription! Bailey adds τελος (telos), possibly Usener added it. It doesn't seem to need it:

εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ συντείνει. > εἰς τὸ αὐτὸ "to the same (place, point, thing)" and συντείνει conveys the sense of striving or putting one's energy toward something. direct earnestly toward the same place.

https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BD%CF%89

In light off Martin 's insightful comments above, I'm downgrading ChatGPT's answer to a C or C-. I still don't think it failed, but that answer is going to have A LOT of red marks all over it.

As I mentioned previously, too, ChatGPT's "answer" certainly looks like one of the popular interpretations of Epicurean philosophy out there on the Internet, including in some academic texts. It's not hard to see where the algorithm's output came from. That's why Emily Austin's book is such a welcome addition to the books available for a wider, popular audience.

VS30 begins at the red Epsilon on the first line.

This is attributed to Metrodorus, per Bailey:

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta by Alfred Körte (1866-1946) provides quite a lot more information on this "Vatican Saying" and where it also occurs. I haven't had a chance to run the Latin through Google Translate, but if someone else if more proficient than I am at Latin (an easy hurdle to jump btw), feel free to add a comment to this thread:

Manuscript

This "Vatican Saying" doesn't get referenced a lot. In fact, before working through the list, I don't know if I ever came across it!

Saint-Andre doesn't include it in his list as it's obviously NOT a saying of Epicurus. Here is Bailey's transcription, translation, and commentary:

Bailey

We're familiar with αυταρκειας (autarkeias "self-sufficiency" or "self-reliance"), but ημεροτητος (hemerotetos) is "gentleness, kindness (of the greatest kind)."

Bailey's comment "Epicurus fully satisfied the Stoic standard" encapsulates some of the issues with Bailey's overall approach to his interpretation of Epicurean texts. He seems to often filter them through a Stoic or ascetic lens.

Autarkeia αὐταρκείας comes up in Epicurean texts, most likely predating and separate from Stoic texts. I don't think Stoics were as much of a rival in the early days of Epicurus's school as they would become later.

VS44. When the sage contends with necessity, he is skilled at giving rather than taking — such a treasury of self-reliance has he found.

ὁ σοφὸς εἰς τὰ ἀναγκαῖα συγκριθεῖς μᾶλλον ἐπίσταται μεταδιδόναι ἢ μεταλαμβάνειν· τηλικοῦτον αὐταρκείας εὗρε θησαυρόν.

VS45. The study of what is natural produces not braggarts nor windbags nor those who show off the culture that most people fight about, but those who are fearless and self-reliant and who value their own good qualities rather than the good things that have come to them from external circumstances.

οὐ κομποὺς οὐδὲ φωνῆς ἐργαστικοὺς οὐδὲ τὴν περιμάχητον παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς παιδείαν ἐνδεικνυμένους φυσιολογία παρασκευάζει, ἀλλὰ σοβαροὺς καὶ αὐτάρκεις καὶ ἐπὶ τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀγαθοῖς, οὐκ ἐπὶ τοῖς τῶν πραγμάτων μέγα φρονοῦντες.

VS77. The greatest fruit of self-reliance is freedom.

τῆς αὐταρκείας καρπὸς μέγιστος ἐλευθερία.

Fragment 135a. We value self-reliance not so that we will live simply and cheaply in all things, but so that we will not be consumed by them.

ἐζηλώσαμεν τὴν αὐτάρκειαν οὐχ ὅπως τοῖς εὐτελέσι καὶ λιτοῖς παντῶς χρώμεθα, ἀλλʼ ὅπως θαρρῶμεν πρὸς αὐτά.

Fragment 200. Don't think it unnatural that when the body cries out, the soul cries also. The body says don't be hungry, don't be thirsty, don't be cold. It is difficult for the soul to prevent these cries, and dangerous for it to ignore the commands of nature because of attachment to its usual independence.

ἀφυσιολόγητον μηδὲν ἡγοῦ βοώσης τῆς σαρκὸς βοᾶν τὴν ψυχὴν· σαρκὸς δὲ φωνή· μὴ πεινῆν, μὴ διψῆν, μὴ ῥιγοῦν· καὶ ταῦτα τὴν ψυχὴν χαλεπὸν μὲν κωλῦσαι, ἐπισφαλὲς δὲ παρακοῦσαι τῆς παραγγειλάσης φύσεως αὐτῇ τῆς προσφυοῦς αὑτῇ αὐταρκείας καθʼ ἡμέραν.

Fr. 202. He who follows nature and not groundless opinions is completely self-reliant. With regard to what is enough by nature, everything he owns is a source of wealth; whereas with regard to unlimited desires, even the greatest wealth is poverty.

ὁ οὖν τῇ φύσει παρακολουθῶν καὶ μὴ ταῖς κεναῖς δόξαις ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτάρκης· πρὸς γὰρ τὸ τῇ φύσει ἀρκοῦν πᾶσα κτῆσίς ἐστι πλοῦτος, πρὸς δὲ τὰς ἀορίστους ὀρέξεις καὶ ὁ μέγιστος πλοῦτός ἐστι πενία.

Fr. 476. Self-reliance is the greatest wealth of all.

πλουσιώτατον αὐτάρκεια πάντων.

Saint-Andre: Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for.

Saint-Andre transcription: οὐ δεῖ λυμαίνεσθαι τὰ παρόντα τῶν ἀπόντων ἐπιθυμίᾳ, ἀλλʼ ἐπιλογίζεσθαι ὅτι καὶ ταῦτα τῶν εὐκταίων ἦν.

Bailey:

Bailey's translation:

We should not spoil what we have by desiring what we have not, but remember that what we have too was the gift of fortune.

There was understandable to-do about Bailey's use of "fortune" in his translation in the other thread in this section on VS35. I find it interesting that in his commentary he avoids using "fortune" and instead uses "to be hoped for," much like other translators. The "hoped" for line seems more in keeping with the text and the spirit of Epicurus's philosophy.

Quote from Pacatus

distinction between "contingent politics" versus "everyday/real politics."

I got the impression he was referring to Realpolitik:

Realpolitik - Wikipedia

Saint-Andre transcription: οὐκ οὕτως χρείαν ἔχομεν τῆς χρείας <τῆς> παρὰ τῶν φίλων ὡς τῆς πίστεως τῆς περὶ τῆς χρείας.

Bailey