Posts by Don

Quote from Godfrey

The Great Obfuscator

Quintus Horatius Flaccus

Carmina Liber I

Carmen XI

Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas, quem mihi, quem tibi

Finem di dederint, Leuconoe, nec Babylonios

Temptaris numeros. Ut melius quidquid erit pati,

Seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Iuppiter ultimam,

Quae nunc oppositis debilitat pumicibus mare

Tyrrhenum: sapias, vina liques, et spatio brevi

Spem longam reseces. Dum loquimur, fugerit invida

Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero

Horace Odes 1:11

Ask not ('tis forbidden knowledge), what our destined term of years,

Mine and yours; nor scan the tables of your Babylonish seers.

Better far to bear the future, my Leuconoe, like the past,

Whether Jove has many winters yet to give, or this our last;

This, that makes the Tyrrhene billows spend their strength against the shore.

Strain your wine and prove your wisdom; life is short; should hope be more?

In the moment of our talking, envious time has ebb'd away.

Seize* the present; trust tomorrow e'en as little as you may.

*Note: pluck, harvest is more literal

The town mouse and country mouse appears to come down on the side of φιλαγρήσειν "to love the countryside"

Quote from Horace, excerpt Satire VI

"One day a country mouse in his poor home

Received an ancient friend, a mouse from Rome:

The host, though close and careful, to a guest

Could open still: so now he did his best.

He spares not oats or vetches: in his chaps

Raisins he brings and nibbled bacon-scraps,

Hoping by varied dainties to entice

His town-bred guest, so delicate and nice,

Who condescended graciously to touch

Thing after thing, but never would take much,

While he, the owner of the mansion, sate

On threshed-out straw, and spelt and darnels ate.

At length the townsman cries: "I wonder how

You can live here, friend, on this hill's rough brow:

Take my advice, and leave these ups and downs,

This hill and dale, for humankind and towns.

Come now, go home with me: remember, all

Who live on earth are mortal, great and small:

Then take, good sir, your pleasure while you may;

With life so short, 'twere wrong to lose a day."

This reasoning made the rustic's head turn round;

Forth from his hole he issues with a bound,

And they two make together for their mark,

In hopes to reach the city during dark.

The midnight sky was bending over all,

When they set foot within a stately hall,

Where couches of wrought ivory had been spread

With gorgeous coverlets of Tyrian red,

And viands piled up high in baskets lay,

The relics of a feast of yesterday.

The townsman does the honours, lays his guest

At ease upon a couch with crimson dressed,

Then nimbly moves in character of host,

And offers in succession boiled and roast;

Nay, like a well-trained slave, each wish prevents,

And tastes before the tit-bits he presents.

The guest, rejoicing in his altered fare,

Assumes in turn a genial diner's air,

When hark! a sudden banging of the door:

Each from his couch is tumbled on the floor:

Half dead, they scurry round the room, poor things,

While the whole house with barking mastiffs rings.

Then says the rustic: "It may do for you,

This life, but I don't like it; so adieu:

Give me my hole, secure from all alarms,

I'll prove that tares and vetches still have charms."

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Don: The sage will be fond of the countryside, enjoying being outside the towns and cities. (120)

Hicks: He will be fond of the country.

Yonge: He will like being in the country,

I think it's wonderful that this characteristic is a single word in the original: φιλαγρήσειν "They will love the ἀγρός "fields, land, country as opposed to the town." "

BBC Radio 4 - Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics, Series 4, Horace

Natalie Haynes stands up for Roman poet Horace. With guests Llewelyn Morgan and Ben Okri.

www.bbc.co.uk

Edit: oops, I meant to put this in the Horace thread! I'm going to copy over there.

Godfrey : I literally just now finished the audiobook of Joyful. I can see why you recommend her work! The only hiccup I had was with the chapter entitled "Magic" but in the larger context, I think I got what she was getting at. I need to pay more attention to her blog too.

I'm continually intrigued by work in this area including Dr. Laurie Santos (Yale's Happiness course and her podcast), Dr. Mike Rucker (The Fun Habit), now Ingrid Lee. These all, to me, have Epicurean aspects to them: embracing joy, taking pleasure in life, gratitude, etc. Epicurus's philosophy keeps infiltrating modern life... he's just not given credit.

The Epicurean Parasite: Horace, Satires 1.1-3

We have learned a great deal in recent years about reading Horace's satires; there is now widespread agreement that the speaker of the satires is himself a…

www.academia.edu

Epicurean Ethics in Horace: The Psychology of Satire

Epicurean Ethics in Horace: The Psychology of Satire

www.academia.edu

An Epicurean “Measure of Wealth” in Horace, Satires 1.1

An Epicurean “Measure of Wealth” in Horace, Satires 1.1

www.academia.edu

Can Vergil Cry? Epicureanism in Horace Odes 1.24

Can Vergil Cry? Epicureanism in Horace Odes 1.24

www.academia.edu

This paper includes a nice short digression on parrhesia:

Happy Twentieth!

(Okay, so technically, this should have been posted on the 19th, but y'all get the idea . We could alter Philodemus's first line to accommodate today's celebration:

σήμερον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

Today I invite you to my little hut, dearest Piso,...

It even keeps the correct long/short rhythm!)

To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth * invites you to come after the ninth hour to his simple cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply.

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

The Greek Anthology. with an English Translation by. W. R. Paton. London. William Heinemann Ltd. 1926

The verb form of this word is what Epicurus uses to describe himself:

ἀδο-λέσχης, ου, ὁ, (adoleskhēs)

prater, idle talker, esp. of reputed sophists: Σωκράτην, τὸν πτωχὸν ἀ. Eup. 352, cf. Ar. Nu. 1485; ἢ Πρόδικος ἢ τῶν ἀ. εἷς γέ τις Id. Fr. 490; ἀ. τις σοφιστής Pl. Plt. 299b, cf. Tht. 195b, R. 488e: generally, talker, babbler, Thphr. Char. 3.2, Arist. EN 1117b35, etc.

Epicurus, On nature, book 28

Epicurus, On nature, book 28

www.academia.edu

Link to make it easier to find Sedley's translation

One of my favorite passages from Epicurus comes at the end of Book 28 of On Nature:

Quote

Nor shall I hesitate to cite repeatedly, to you and to these others, cases where there is still error of this kind among us; and so too all other cases, which are not of this kind, but ­which we would nevertheless consider to involve error. For the present, however, I do not wish to cite them, to avoid making a new start in a discussion which has already reached sufficient length. So let the words which we have prattled suffice for the present. And you others, try ten thousand times over to commit to memory what I and Metrodorus here have just said.

And now I think I have finished prattling to you this twenty-eighth instalment of our consecutive lecture series.

To me, it demonstrates:

- the use of frank criticism in the Garden by correcting errors "among us"

- Epicurus's sense of humor in using words that convey "prattling on"

- the use of lectures in the Garden

- the encouragement of memorizing texts

- the use of back and forth conversation to instruct, ie what I and Metrodorus here have just said

This little section packs a lot in.

Quote from Kalosyni

in Lucretius honey is put onto the cup of wormwood (which would be to emphasize a pleasant way of speaking).

It seems to me that Lucretius is using the honey/wormwood as a metaphor for administering medicine to a sick patient. Frank criticism is often compared to medicine as well. This is in the commentary to Philodemus' work:

Not only is frank speech "akin to friendship," it is the "language of friendship" and the "most potent medicine in friendship," to be employed in mutual moral reform among friends.

Lucretius uses a pleasant method of delivery (poetry) to administer what some see as bitter medicine (no afterlife, no gods looking over us, etc.). Once administered, however, the philosophy does the person good, in fact cures them of fear and anxiety etc. Frank criticism is another tool to administer medicine.

Here are some quotes from On Frank Criticism talking about treating (θεραπεύειν therapeuein) patients/students:

Col. XVIIa: ...but when they observe that their character is prone to error, they are stung. And just like those who call skilled doctors to an operation when they apply the scalpel to those who are ill , so too when what is stinging in frank criticism meets the eye of these people and they believe that they will commit no error, or that they will escape notice even if they have erred many

times, they call upon {their teachers} to admonish...

Fr. 40: ...for it is necessary to show him his errors forthrightly and speak of his failings publicly. For if he has considered this man to be the one guide of right speech and [action], whom he calls the only savior, and {to whom}, citing the phrase, "with him accompanying {me}," he has given himself over to be treated, then how is he not going to show to him those things in which he needs treatment, and [accept admonishment]?

Fr. 79 (=81 N): ...{so that} he can be treated either by us or by another of his fellow-students, and not to do it {i.e., criticize frankly} continually, nor against everyone, nor every chance error, nor {errors} of those whom one should not {criticize}when they are present, nor with merriment, but rather [to take up the errors] sympathetically [and not to] scorn [or insult] on..

Oh, and as far as studying in the Garden, it's interesting to note that On Nature , either all the volumes or specific volumes, was actually a lecture series of Epicurus. There was a lot of attendance at talks by the teachers.

Quote from Kalosyni

in Lucretius honey is put onto the cup of wormwood (which would be to emphasize a pleasant way of speaking).

It seems to me that Lucretius is using the honey/wormwood as a metaphor for administering medicine to a sick patient. Frank criticism is often compared to medicine as well. This is in the commentary to Philodemus' work:

Not only is frank speech "akin to friendship," it is the "language of friendship" and the "most potent medicine in friendship," to be employed in mutual moral reform among friends.

Philodemus uses a pleasant method of delivery (poetry) to administer what some see as bitter medicine (no afterlife, no gods looking over us, etc.). Once administered, however, the philosophy does the person good, in fact cures them of fear and anxiety etc. Frank criticism is another tool to administer medicine.

Ex. From above book...

Here's a book that can be checked out from Internet Archive that could prove interesting:

Paul and Philodemus : adaptability in Epicurean and early Christian psychagogy : Glad, Clarence E : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xiv, 414 pages ; 25 cm

archive.org

παρρησία "Frank speech" isn't a pleasant way of speaking. In many cases, it's uncomfortable and can be biting. It's compared in the text to a doctor administering a remedy that may be painful but necessary. It's often even translated as "frank criticism."

It appears that Philodemus's "On Frank Speech" is based in large part on his notes of lectures given by his teacher Zeno of Sidon

Zeno of Sidon - Wikipedia

If that's the case, this practice or method of instruction would have been widespread.

For my part, I think we have to consider any Epicurean texts from ancient Greece or Rome as early extant texts, with the caveat to understand how much is reconstructed from fragments and how much still appears as full paragraphs and pages. One thing that looking at the manuscripts has shown me is that even Diogenes Laertius and Lucretius have issues and questions when it comes to their texts. We have so few texts widely available that when we find translations of On Nature or Philodemus, we need to mine them for all they're worth. We have lost so much.

I see the practice of frank speech in the Garden as a natural outgrowth of wanting one's friends and students to stay on the path. The Garden provided opportunities for much more social interaction and one on one time than we will most likely ever have. I don't think we should think of frank speech between teacher and student as "confession," which perverts the notion of correction and instruction to a means of punishment and shame. It strikes me that the Garden provided an environment where the student genuinely wanted to follow the path of Epicurus, and the teacher genuinely wanted to help the student. Some students may have been more amenable to this correction than others, but that didn't stop the teacher from administering the medicine.

See also

Parrhesia in Cassius Dio [in C.H. Lange and J.M. Madsen (eds), Cassius Dio – Greek Intellectual and Roman Politician (Brill's Historiography of Rome and its empire Series 1), 2016]

http://www.brill.com/products/book/cassius-dio

www.academia.edu

Thoreau, Parrhesia, and the Socratic Tradition of Philosophy

Most objections against Henry Thoreau aim at his "unfriendly" provocations. In this article, I argue that we need to situate his exhortative style in…

www.academia.edu

Abstract Most objections against Henry Thoreau aim at his “unfriendly” provocations. In this article, I argue that we need to situate his exhortative style in the context of practicing parrhesia or the bold expression of truth in the Socratic tradition of philosophy. Philosophical parrhesia can be defined as the practice of speaking the truth with an eye to bringing home the realization that one must change one’s life. The transformation Thoreau has in mind is hinged upon acquiring the practical knowledge of cultivating the senses through what he calls “excursion.” This, I argue, is his key contribution to the said tradition.

btw here's the LSJ entry for parrhesia "frank speech"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, παρρησί-α

"outspokenness, frankness, freedom of speech, claimed by the Athenians as their privilege"

So, frank speech was not something unique to the Epicurean school, but they definitely seem to have raised it to an integral part of their instruction.

As you'll see there are a number of citations in that definition entry to other authors, including:

Euripides, Hippolytus

they may live in glorious Athens as free men, *free of speech* (παρρησίᾳ) and flourishing, enjoying good repute where their mother is concerned.

Euripides, Bacchae

I wish to hear whether I should tell you in *free speech* the situation there or whether I should repress my report,..

Aristophanes, Thesmophoriazusae

Have we not the right to speak frankly at this gathering?

Plato, Republic

“It is plain,” he said. “To begin with, are they not free? and is not the city chock-full of liberty and freedom of speech? and has not every man licence1 to do as he likes?”

Demosthenes, Philippic 2

I vow that I will *boldly tell you the whole truth* and keep nothing back.

Quote from Cassius

I don't see much deviation in Philodemus - as to "frank criticism" I see that as largely common sense and totally consistent with Epicurus' emphasis on clarity and honesty.

Agreed. On Frank Speech is an interesting read.