Posts by Don

PS. On a more serious note, I literally just finished listening to the entire episode. I am humbled and honored by Joshua 's use of my translation and commentary, and I'm grateful that it is being useful. I'm still hoping to record a study session series on the letter before the end of the year. 🤞

LOL! I didn't realize I would be featured in this episode. Thanks for using my Menoikeus! And I like salmon, too, just for the record.

https://www.angio.net/pi/bigpi.cgi

Epicurus (Ἐπίκουρος Epikouros): 341–270 BC

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Quote from Cassius

I need to find the proper cite for this one, which needs addition here in this thread.

11. The stable condition of well-being in the body and the sure hope of its continuance holds the fullest and surest joy for those who can rightly calculate it.

Where does your "11" come from? This sounds like just an alternative translation of Fragment 68. To those who are able to reason it out, the highest and surest joy is found in the stable health of the body and a firm confidence in keeping it.

τὸ γὰρ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κατάστημα καὶ τὸ περὶ ταύτης πιστὸν ἔλπισμα τὴν ἀκροτάτην χαρὰν καὶ βεβαιοτάτην ἔχει τοῖς ἐπιλογίζεσθαι δυναμένοις.

From Attalus:

[ U68 ]

Plutarch, That Epicurus actually makes a pleasant life impossible, 4, p. 1089D: It is this, I believe, that has driven them, seeing for themselves the absurdities to which they were reduced, to take refuge in the "painlessness" and the "stable condition of the flesh," supposing that the pleasurable life is found in thinking of this state as about to occur in people or as being achieved; for the "stable and settled condition of the flesh," and the "trustworthy expectation" of this condition contain, they say, the highest and the most assured delight for men who are able to reflect. Now to begin with, observe their conduct here, how they keep decanting this "pleasure" or "painlessness" or "stable condition" of theirs back and forth, from body to mind and then once more from mind to body.

Aulus Gellius, Attic Nights, IX.5.2: Epicurus makes pleasure the highest good but defines it as sarkos eustathes katastema, or "a well-balanced condition of the body."

I'm betting all "rules" were fluid back then.

Looking online at an ancient Great grammar book:

Quote from Introduction to Attic Greek

Nu is often assimilated to the following consonant in compounds or in phrases pronounced as a unit: it is assimilated to the following consonant before Λ, Μ, Ρ, Σ, labialzed to M before the labial plosives (Β, Π, Φ), and converted to velar nasal Γ before the velar plosives (Κ, Γ, Χ)

Quote from Bryan

Quote from Bryan

Epicurus, On Nature 28.10.1a (Sedley reconstruction) "πραγματικῶν θεωρημάτων ἐνδίξει καὶ τὴν μερίληψιν... τῆς δόξης... περὶ ταύτης τε τῆς εἰς τοῦτο ἐμβαλλούσης ὑπολήψεως. ὄντων δ' οὖν τοιούτων οἶον... τούτων κατὰ τὴν αἵρεσιν πραττόντων... τῆς ἐπαγωγῆς γιγνέσθω τῆς πραγματικῆς..."

τὴν μερίληψιν (tēn merílēpsin): Part-taking, Partiality, Fragmentation

28.10.1a is SO fragmentary! Your smooth transcription somewhat obscures that. There is a LOT of missing papyrus in that column.

It also looks like Sedley has περ̣[ίληψ]ιμ where you have μερίληψιν (Sedley pi π.., your mu μ..).

Here's the engraving of that column from Papyri.info!

Oh my! It looks even worse when you see the papyrus itself. Getting more than a few words strung together at a time from that seems highly problematic.

Quote from Pacatus

Don How does tagathon relate to telos?

In connotation. Tagathon ταγαθον is ultimately simply "good" agathon with the definite article "the" added to the front: t + agathon = "The Good". As opposed to agathon "a good, good (adjective)"

They're basically referring, I think, to the same thing: that to which all other things point; the ultimate reason why we do what we do.

It strikes me that, according to Epicurus (and the other ancient philosophers), there's only one Greatest Good (tagathon), and that's pleasure in Epicurus's school. All other goods (agathos) are instrumental to achieving that greatest good. It seems to me that Epicurus was willing to employ any of the instrumental goods, for the body or mind, in service to achieving the greatest good. Other schools limited which goods or virtues were to be employed or were to be considered "good."

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is an excerpt from the above article (found in the Notes number 1):

Quote

Aristotle, in fact, identifies a tripartite division of goods: external goods (ektos agatha ), somatic goods (ta soma agatha ), and psychological goods (ta peri psychen agatha). In this tripartition, the external goods include only goods external
to the body, like money, while bodily goods like health are called somatic goods. However, Aristotle typically collapses the categories of somatic and external into one, indicating the real distinction he wants to draw: that between psychological
goods and everything else. Aristotle takes this division to be commonplace (P1323a24-26), as does Plato (cf. Euthydemus 279b, Philebus 48e).

I was rereading this, and it struck me that Epicurus seems to riff off of Aristotle's categories in a couple ways. First, somatic goods (ta soma agatha ), and psychological goods (ta peri psychen agatha) sound like the health of the body and the serenity of the mind, namely aponia and ataraxia. soma σῶμα is just Greek for "body" (plus some other connotations in the polysemous Greek) and psyche is "mind" (for our purposes, but sometimes translated "soul"). I was also reminded of the division of the necessary desires in the Menoikeus letter:

Quote

of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body (αἱ δὲ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν); then those necessary for life itself.

You had me at "polysemous"

Quote from Pacatus

I recalled having seen English translations that rendered μακάριος as “happy” – including in the beatitudes. The two I found are Young’s Literal Translation (1898) and the Good News Translation by the American Bible Society (1976).

There seem to be SO MANY specific Greek and Latin words that get chopped down to just "happy" in English.

Case in point: VS48 ( Pacatus 's footer) -

While you are on the road, try to make the later part better than the earlier part; and be equally happy when you reach the end.

πειρᾶσθαι τὴν ὑστέραν τῆς προτέρας κρείττω ποιείν, ἕως ἂν ἐν ὁδῷ ὦμεν· ἐπειδὰν δʼ ἐπὶ πέρας ἔλθωμεν, ὁμαλῶς εὐφραίνεσθαι.

which is related directly to εὐφροσύνη (euphrosúnē) mirth, merriment; gleefulness; etc.; especially of a banquet, good cheer, festivity

εὐφροσύνη - Ancient Greek (LSJ)

Again, sorry for derailing this thread. The big picture takeaway I'm encouraging everyone to consider is this:

When we read:

"You must study and meditate upon that which produces eudaimonia/happiness. For if indeed that is present, we have everything; if that is not present, we do anything to have it." (Menoikeus 122)

We have a current, contemporary idea of what "happiness" means, and eudaimonia doesn't *really* mean anything to us. Words have meanings, but those meanings are not static. They evolve. Did Jefferson mean the same thing we mean when he penned "pursuit of happiness"? No, not really... But are they related? Sure? Maybe? But not exactly. I'm advocating we know what we mean - what we all mean and agree to - before we assume we're all talking about the same thing. Epicurus advocated use of the ordinary or common usage... But we have to know what those ordinary and common usages of words were *at the time* the texts were being composed.

I find it interesting that if Cicero is using beatus, that's the exact word used in the Beatitudes in the Latin Vulgate Bible with the original Greek being makarios.

"In the Latin Vulgate, each of these blessings begins with the word beātī, which translates to "blessed" (plural adjective). The corresponding word in the original Greek is μακάριοι (makarioi), with the same meaning. Thus "Blessed are the poor in spirit" appears in Latin as beātī pauperēs spīritū. The Latin noun beātitūdō was coined by Cicero to describe a state of blessedness and was later incorporated within the chapter headings written for Matthew 5 in various printed versions of the Vulgate."

If we're going to say that...

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus also talked about happiness as what we are aiming for. Epicurus defined happiness to mean total pleasures predominating over total pains, as he (for example) experienced in his last days while happy but in extreme pain.

(which I agree with), it behooves us to know how Epicurus talked about eudaimonia.

Letter to Pythocles, 116:

For the animals offer no necessary reason why a storm should be produced ; and no divine being sits observing when these animals go out and afterwards fulfilling the signs which they have given. [116] For such folly as this would not possess the most ordinary being if ever so little enlightened, much less one who enjoys perfect felicity. (παντελῆ εὐδαιμονίαν pantele eudaimonian > pan "all" + telos "goals" > a well-being where all goals have been met)

Then we have all of the mentions of eudaimonia in the letter to Menoikeus.

Plus there are translations that use "happiness" in place of makarios (as in the blessed happiness of the gods) like this in the letter to Herodotus:

"Further, we must hold that to arrive at accurate knowledge of the cause of things of most moment is the business of natural science, and that happiness (μακάριον makarion) depends on this (viz. on the knowledge of celestial and atmospheric phenomena), and upon knowing what the heavenly bodies really are, and any kindred facts contributing to exact knowledge in this respect.

So if one is to be not only possessing eudaimonia but also be considered makarios, that feeling/state/condition also "depends on" knowledge of how the natural world works... most likely because we would otherwise not know how to pursue pleasure wisely and would be subject to empty fears and empty desires.

I'm sorry to have taken this thread on a tangent; however, from my perspective, here are some Vatican Sayings that speak to the idea of satisfaction:

VS35 Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for.

VS67 A free person is unable to acquire great wealth, because that is not easily achieved without enslavement to the masses or to the powers that be. Instead, he already has everything he needs, and in abundance. But if by chance he should have great wealth, he could easily share it with his fellows to win their goodwill.

VS68 Nothing is enough to one for whom enough is very little.

VS69 The ingratitude of the soul makes a creature greedy for endless variation in its way of life.

It's not being stagnant or complacent. It's appreciating the things you do have, gaining pleasure from what you do have, without always grubbing for the next thing or always struggling for the thing you don't have. We miss our lives as they fly by if we live that way. Of course, one can work to achieve more comfort, more steadiness, more stability in one's life. Philodenus wrote a whole treatise on managing ones affairs well. But if we don't stop and pluck the ripe fruit when it is available, we miss our one life.

Quote from Cassius

Satisfaction of desires isn't sufficient there either because you still have to ask "what desires?"

To my mind, from an Epicurean perspective, it's not satisfaction of "specific" desires but more being satisfied - taking pleasure - in what is currently available... while at the same time being open to luxuries when they become available. It's the "maza and spring water" (barley bread/meal and water) in the Letter to Menoikeus. It's taking pleasure and satisfaction in the day to day things, not scraping, striving, fighting, etc after "empty" desires like unlimited fame, unlimited wealth.

Quote from Bryan

"Happiness" is not incorrect

Well put! It brings to mind people saying "You're not wrong, but..." Thanks.

Here's the Liddell & Scott definition of eudaimonia:

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…4.0057:entry=eu)daimoni/a

A translation of Herodotus uses "prosperity" for eudaimonia in one place, but "happiness" is used in the translation of the story of Croesus (same word, two different translations):

Thus Solon granted second place in happiness (εὐδαιμονίης) to these men. Croesus was vexed and said, “My Athenian guest, do you so much despise our happiness (εὐδαιμονίη) that you do not even make us worth as much as common men?”

A translation of Thucydides uses "wealth" for eudaimonia:

[5] For of all the nations of Europe that lie between the Ionian Gulf and the Euxine Sea, it was, for revenue of money and other wealth (καὶ τῇ ἄλλῃ εὐδαιμονίᾳ), the mightiest; though indeed for strength of an army and multitudes of soldiers, the same be far short of the Scythians.

So, there is a dimension of satisfaction, prosperity, being well off, having a sense of satisfaction, that isn't encompassed in "happiness." As Bryan says, "happiness isn't wrong..."

Quote from Cassius

In our discussions we aren't targeting writing a Greek dictionary, we're targeting the practical concept of "happiness," which "everyone agrees" is the goal of life.

I haven't thoroughly read all the thread (looks like a good discussion), but here's my first reaction to that statement. Fully agree we aren't writing a Greek dictionary, but...

We are obligated to know what we're talking about. I would hazard that the average person thinks of "happiness" or "being happy" as a - as we've been saying - a titillation of the mind, a pleasant stimulation of the senses. If you ask someone if they're happy, I would guess that they're going to be befuddled if they're just walking down the street and get asked. "I guess so. I'm doing okay."

The fact that ευδαιμονια is the word being referred to, it behooves us to know what is meant by that word. That's my big beef in just accepting that "it means 'happiness' and going on with the discussion (not just here but all over the internet, books, etc.). It's just taken for granted that eudaimonia = happiness, now let's use happiness. Which brings me to the Declaration of Independence's "pursuit of happiness."

I went and looked up in Samuel Johnson's 1768 edition of his dictionary and looked up "happiness"

A dictionary of the English language. Abstracted from the folio ed., by the author. To which is prefixed, an English grammar. To this ed. are added, a history of the English language [&c.].

books.google.com

Would people nowadays equate "happiness" with "state in which the desires are satisfied"? I think most people think of happiness as being more smiling people at a dinner party, having lively conversation. "I'm so happy!"

Which brings me back to my unending soapbox blathering that I think "well-being" is a much better translation of eudamonia than "happiness." "Well-being" gets at that satisfaction aspect that I think happiness misses (maybe it's a part of it but it doesn't square up well) and that I think eudaimonia actually encompasses. One feels lucky, satisfied, living a fortuitous existence... I know we don't think much of "fortune" or "luck" but from an everperson-off-the-street stance, I continue to picket for "well-being" being the better translation of that word to which Epicurus and the Greek philosophers were pointing.

(Steps down off soap box and goes back to reading thread...)

People, were talking the late 1700s here. Grammar is not what it used to be.

The whole idea with that phrase was that the Constitution would be "closer to being finished, more complete, more fully formed" than the wonky, loosey-goosey Articles of Confederation.

The Constitution, in the eyes of the Framers, made the United States of America closer to a real country rather than a conglomeration of individual states (ie, their own countries).