Posts by Don

Quote from Godfrey

Laurie Anderson has a lyric to the effect that when her father died, it was if a whole library burned down.

That is so poignant, and I know exactly what you/she are talking about. I've also worked on my family history and been grateful (Isn't showing gratitude an Epicurean trait?) for the work of others. I have an unbroken chain of photos back in one line 7 generations starting with my children to my 3rd-great-grandparents born in the 1810s. I often wonder what my ancestors would think of my philosophical leanings. One of my ancestors was the first Lutheran pastor in Pennsylvania.

I haven't read much of Montaigne but I'm intrigued by what I've read about him. I sent looking for the essay when Godfrey mentioned that the remainder of it was "a meditation on death". Wikisource has all of his essays and I went looking for Book I.XIX. That to study philosophy is to learn to die.

I found all the Lucretius references interesting and the section that begins:

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Young and old die upon the same terms; no one departs out of life otherwise than if he had but just before entered into it; neither is any man so old and decrepit, who, having heard of Methuselah, does not think he has yet twenty good years to come. Fool that thou art! who has assured unto thee the term of life?

reminded me of De Rerum Natura III.1026-1052 that begins talking about Ancus the Good dying.

Thanks for the reminder about Montaigne. Color me intrigued.

One thing I think we have to keep in mind when taking about Cicero is that On Ends doesn't offer us a transcription of an actual Epicurean speaking to Cicero. As I understand it, Cicero is using "Torquatus" as a character in his work to explain Epicureanism. I have no doubt Cicero was generally accurate (he had living Epicureans to call "foul!" if he went too astray) but I'm also sure her was very deliberate in his word choices for the Epicurean's "contribution" to the "conversation." Cicero was no fan of Epicureanism and if he could provide a shade of meaning he preferred to steer the interpretation his way, I have no doubt he did. So, there's that problem of seeing Epicureanism "through a glass darkly" or at least through Cicero's "glasses."

Quote from Godfrey

Thanks Eugenios!

I've actually begun learning the Greek alphabet: you've got me inspired! Baby steps though

You're welcome. That was fun!

I learned the Greek alphabet in junior high school and would take notes in them (using them more like a code than a language). Eventually, I thought I better learn some of the language they were used to write .

Here are the sections translated as "seeds" in the Letter to Herodotus (numbers are to sections in Diogenes Laertius). Perseus Digital Library uses the "Lives of Eminent Philosophers." Diogenes Laertius. R.D. Hicks. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1972 (First published 1925).

Section 38 in that translation has "germs" but uses the same Greek word: σπέρμα (sperma) and each of the sections just uses a different declension. It literally means "seed." Below are the sections for context. Here is a link to the Perseus Digital Library's Greek Word Study Tool that has links to LSJ, Middle Liddell, Slater, and Autenrieth. I *love* that Greek Word Study Tool! Also like Wiktionary for the declensions.

[38] ... For in that case anything would have arisen out of anything, standing as it would in no need of its proper germs.
πρῶτον μὲν ὅτι οὐδὲν γίνεται ἐκ τοῦ μὴ ὄντος. πᾶν γὰρ ἐκ παντὸς ἐγίνετ᾽ ἂν σπερμά των γε οὐθὲν προσδεόμενον

This section uses σπέρματα (another declension)

[74] "And further, we must not suppose that the worlds have necessarily one and the same shape. [On the contrary, in the twelfth book "On Nature" he himself says that the shapes of the worlds differ, some being spherical, some oval, others again of shapes different from these. They do not, however, admit of every shape. Nor are they living beings which have been separated from the infinite.] For nobody can prove that in one sort of world there might not be contained, whereas in another sort of world there could not possibly be, the seeds out of which animals and plants arise and all the rest of the things we see. [And the same holds good for their nurture in a world after they have arisen. And so too we must think it happens upon the earth also.]

[74] "Ἔτι δὲ καὶ τοὺς κόσμους οὔτε ἐξ ἀνάγκης δεῖ νομίζειν ἕνα σχηματισμὸν ἔχοντας : : [ἀλλὰ καὶ διαφόρους αὐτοὺς ἐν τῇ ιβ᾽ Περὶ φύσεως αὐτός φησιν: οὓς μὲν γὰρ σφαιροειδεῖς, καὶ ᾠοειδεῖς ἄλλους, καὶ ἀλλοιοσχήμονας ἑτέρους: οὐ μέντοι πᾶν σχῆμα ἔχειν. οὐδὲ ζῷα εἶναι ἀποκριθέντα ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀπείρου.] οὐδὲ γὰρ ἂν ἀποδείξειεν οὐδείς, ὡς <ἐν> μὲν τῷ τοιούτῳ καὶ οὐκ ἂν ἐμπεριελήφθη τὰ τοιαῦτα σπέρματα, ἐξ ὧν ζῷά τε καὶ φυτὰ καὶ τὰ λοιπὰ πάντα <τὰ> θεωρούμενα συνίσταται, ἐν δὲ τῷ τοιούτῳ οὐκ ἂν ἐδυνήθη. [ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ ἐντραφῆναι. τὸν αὐτὸν δὲ τρόπον καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς νομιστέον.]

In the Letter to Pythocles, we find σπερμάτων:

[89] "That there is an infinite number of such worlds can be perceived, and that such a world may arise in a world or in one of the intermundia (by which term we mean the spaces between worlds) in a tolerably empty space and not, as some maintain, in a vast space perfectly clear and void.116 It arises when certain suitable seeds rush in from a single world or intermundium, or from several, and undergo gradual additions or articulations or changes of place, it may be, and waterings from appropriate sources, until they are matured and firmly settled in so far as the foundations laid can receive them.

[89] "Ὅτι δὲ καὶ τοιοῦτοι κόσμοι εἰσὶν ἄπειροι τὸ πλῆθος ἔστι καταλαβεῖν, καὶ ὅτι καὶ ὁ τοιοῦτος δύναται κόσμος γίνεσθαι καὶ ἐν κόσμῳ καὶ μετακοσμίῳ, ὃ λέγομεν μεταξὺ κόσμων διάστημα, ἐν πολυκένῳ τόπῳ καὶ οὐκ ἐν μεγάλῳ εἰλικρινεῖ καὶ κενῷ, καθάπερ τινές φασιν, ἐπιτηδείων τινῶν σπερμάτων ῥυέντων ἀφ᾽ ἑνὸς κόσμου ἢ μετακοσμίου ἢ καὶ ἀπὸ πλειόνων κατὰ μικρὸν προσθέσεις τε καὶ διαρθρώσεις καὶ μεταστάσεις ποιούντων ἐπ᾽ ἄλλον τόπον, ἐὰν οὕτω τύχῃ, καὶ ἐπαρδεύσεις ἐκ τῶν ἐχόντων ἐπιτηδείως ἕως τελειώσεως καὶ διαμονῆς ἐφ᾽ ὅσον τὰ ὑποβληθέντα θεμέλια τὴν προσδοχὴν δύναται ποιεῖσθαι.

This section uses the same word, different declension: σπερμάτων

Quote from Charles

The issue we're facing is that for the rest of philosophy: free will is a matter of ontology, but for us its a matter of physics, coming from the swerve.

I'll admit I'm still "iffy" on the swerve (in relation to modern physics), but free will being a "matter of physics" for us caught my eye. I agree. In light of that, I thought this Scientific American blog post was interesting. Of course , other posts said physics disproved free will, but I like Charles characterization here in any case.

Wondering: Is the practice of "choice and avoidance" predicated on the fact that we are able to exercise our free will? Sometimes we choose wisely, sometimes we choose poorly in our desire to achieve pleasure. But it's up to us to make those choices?

Welcome, and Happy Twentieth!

Quote from Godfrey

Happy 20th!

Attached is an image of Epicurus which works well as wallpaper for a phone. It came from the BBC podcast with Catherine Wilson, David Sedley et al. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/ww3cszjv4)

I hope all are well!

Happy Twentieth!

Home screen on my phone set! Thanks for the image

Yes!!

Now I'm getting why you all have the affinity you do for DeWitt's work! The statement in this paper that stood out for me was:

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I think it best to print the Greek text, which is undisputed, and to build up a version piecemeal

THIS is what I've been waiting for in Epicurus and His Philosophy (EaHP)!

Unfortunately, he seems to, for the most part, avoid this "building up" in that work. I realize EaHP is geared toward a more "popular" audience so in-depth erudite step by step arguments seem to have been put aside in favor of mere assertion on some points. Plus, he adulterated that work with the "Epicureanism in Christianity" stuff which seems superfluous to me but which Cassius had good arguments for DeWitt's inclusion that make sense to me. I don't necessarily accept DeWitt's assertions on those, but I get why he probably put them in (in addition to his obviously believing they're in the New Testament).

But these papers of DeWitt's are great! I have greatly enjoyed reading them! He is definitely striking a blow for Epicurus!

Now THIS is what I'm talking about!! This is DeWitt's full erudition and scholarship on display. He makes claims and then backs them up FULLY with citations, original text excerpts, and step-by-step reasoning. I enjoyed reading this VERY much.

My only initial hesitation was his claim that Lucretius mistranslated a certain term or concept. Uh oh, I thought. Lucretius WAS an Epicurean who understood both Greek and Latin (the latter as a first language). He knew what he wanted to say... BUT Dewitt did an excellent job of laying out why he thought Lucretius may have used the term he did in the cultural context of his time and because he was a poet.

Now, I'm still going to hold Dewitt accountable for unsubstantiated claims he makes in EaHP, but this essay was a welcome eye-opener on the professor's ability!

Thanks, Cassius , for posting!

I was just making dinner and was listening to a RadioLab episode entitled The Cataclysm Sentence. Here's the blurb:

One day in 1961, the famous physicist Richard Feynman stepped in front of a Caltech lecture hall and posed this question to a group of undergraduate students: “If, in some cataclysm, all of scientific knowledge were to be destroyed, and only one sentence was passed on to the next generation of creatures, what statement would contain the most information in the fewest words?” Now, Feynman had an answer to his own question - a good one.

I think you'll find Feynman's answer* satisfying from an Epicurean perspective (if you don't know it already). Just had to share. Enjoy.

*His answer had to do with passing on the atomic theory and I immediately thought of Lucretius and his "passing on" the atomic theory to the Renaissance.

Cassius , thank you SO much for your comments!! I can definitely see where you're coming from in explaining DeWitt's "Epicureanism in Christianity" directions and think you make some very valid conjectures and provide hearty food for thought. I especially liked your...

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...hard to resist a significant degree of evangelical spirit.

Amen!

I certainly appreciate your perspectives. Thank you for taking the time to share them! I concur that it's important to not get hung up on details and miss the "big picture." I also freely admit that this may as well be my first reading of DeWitt as I only vaguely remember passages from my first reading as I'm reading this time. And I haven't even gotten to the meat of the philosophy chapters yet. You all have had years with DeWitt and so have a much broader perspective on his work. I hope you'll be patient with me as I dig into the rest of EAHP.

I also fully agree that a syncretic, cafeteria-style philosophy isn't worth much. Either a philosophy or "art of life" stands on its own or not. I apologize if I gave the impression I was going down that road. That is not my intention.

All that being said, I do not wish to be a DeWittean Epicurean, a Baileyan Epicurean, a Gassendian Epicurean, a Jeffersonian Epicurean, a Stoic Epicurean, but an Epicurean. I want to understand what Epicurus, Metrodorus, Philodemus, Lucretius, et al. taught and wrote to the best of my ability, using all the best scholarship available from multiple sources and using the example of Epicurus to question accepted wisdom and "culture" and to come to my own conclusions.

So, personally, I am withholding my judgement of DeWitt's claim of understanding Epicurus' philosophy better than any others. I definitely agree that academic consensus doesn't necessarily equate with "Truth." I also don't necessarily think the maverick freethinking scholar is always right either. DeWitt's agenda to find Epicureanism hidden in Christianity at every turn raises red flags for me. I fear he may try to make connections where none actually exist or are tenuous at best or have multiple valid explanations (like explanations for meterological events in Lucretius). However, I *am* looking forward to digging into his anti-Platonic arguments. Epicurus was definitely no fan of the prevailing educational system of his day and it makes sense that he would work to counter that.

This is why I firmly believe, no matter the difficulty, that it is so important to look at the original works (on digitised manuscripts if possible), to compare numerous translations, and to consult authoritative dictionaries and other reference works. Is it a long involved process? Sure! Lifelong maybe. But I want to understand *why* translators and scholars chose the words they did. Because the words of Epicurus and Lucretius and Philodemus et al. - extant and buried in their critics - are the only connection we have to them. I'm reluctant to accept any one person's filter (other than Epicurus' ) through which to see this philosophy. If I'm going to make decisions about how to live my life using this philosophy, I'm going to base them on the words of Epicurus (and the other classical Epicureans) as I can reasonably come to understand them. I will gladly and enthusiastically accept the help of fellow aspiring Epicureans online. I will gladly and enthusiastically accept the help of scholars in the field - DeWitt included, of course! - but I'm going to check footnotes and citations and hold their feet to the proverbial fire to see if their conclusions are confirmed by the words in the original texts that they cite. If they're adding attributes that aren't there or making broad assumptions or trying to make tenuous connections to disparate facts, I'm going to be skeptical of other claims they make that aren't so easily questioned.

And I'm looking forward to taking pleasure in the journey!

Thanks, Cassius , for the articles. I'm looking forward to reading them.

While I have respect for DeWitt's credentials as a classical scholar and translator, I admit I'm somewhat skeptical of his proclivity for saying, in effect "everyone has been mistranslating [fill in the blank] and I'm the only one who really figured out what it means." Especially if the novel translation also fits with an unorthodox or idiosyncratic interpretation. I'm not saying that's always the case with him, but that is the kind of thing that give me pause.

Glad to hear your power is back! Hope that was the extent of your inconvenience! Welcome back.

Oh, DeWitticism!! That's a keeper

As I continue my romp through DeWitt, I've assembled the following thoughts and comments on Chapter 3:

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Quote P. 61: Epicurus, in turn, becoming the pupil of Nausiphanes, conceived a like admiration of Pyrrho's conduct "and was continually asking for more information about him."27 Here may consequently be discerned one possible origin for the famous Epicurean doctrine of ataraxy or tranquillity of soul. The practice of Pyrrho was closer to this than to the cheerfulness (euthumia) of Democritus, although Epicurus cultivated this also. It is to be remembered too that Pyrrho recommended abstention from public life (apragmosune), which should remind us that Epicurus disapproved of all public careers.

Thanks, DeWitt! I finally get to dig into another part of Diogenes Laertius' Lives! Footnote 27 refers to DL IX.64:

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"...and [Nausiphanes] would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho,..."

For more on Pyrrho, we have a good-sized section in Chapter 9 of DL. So, if Epicurus found Pyrrho's life so admirable, it would probably profit us to see why. I'm assuming Pyrrho will come up again in DeWitt, but this is an interesting part of Epicurus' origin story which makes him sound like a superhero but, if the sandal fits...

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Quote P. 63: In the case of Nausiphanes there is another item of evidence from the pen of Epicurus: "As for my own opinion, I presume that the high-steppers (Platonists) will think me really a pupil of the 'lung-fish' and that I listened to his lectures in the company of certain lads who were stupid from the night's carousing. For he was both an immoral man and addicted to such practices as made it impossible for him to arrive at wisdom." 34 The practices here referred to have been interpreted as the study of mathematics, 35 but the mention of adolescent lads, of drinking, and of immorality make the true reference unmistakable to any reader conversant with the shadier side of student life among the Greeks.

This initially struck me as holier-than-thou judgementalism on the part of DeWitt, especially the "shadier side of student life." I decided to check the Footnotes 34 and 35 citations which reference Usener 114 which refers to Sextus Empiricus, Against the Professors, I.3 (Translated at Attalus.org and the original in Usener and another translation at Stoic Therapy). The term DeWitt translates as "certain lads who were stupid from the night's carousing" is, in the original (transliterated), kraipalonton from κραιπάλη which means "bout of drinking; intoxication, inebration; hangover." SO, DeWitt's translation is not far from the mark although it seems "hungover students" might be better than "stupid" although those with hangovers are not known to be at the top of their game. It seems other translators are less forthcoming or literal than DeWitt was here. So, I'll tip my hat to DeWitt on this one.

However, the second part of DeWitt's translation is less cut-and-dried:

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"For [Nausiphanes] was both an immoral man and addicted to such practices as made it impossible for him to arrive at wisdom."

The original describes Nausiphanes as a πονηρός άνθρωπος (poneros anthropos) which appears to be more "good-for-nothing, worthless, knavish, base, cowardly person." I'm just wondering - PURE conjecture - if DeWitt is reading this as something like πορνηρός* (porneros* not attested but that extra "r" would make it look connected with porne "prostitute" or porneion "brothel") to get at DeWitt's "immoral". Also, DeWitt's "addicted" is έπιτετηδευκώ from ἐπιτηδεύω which appears to simply mean "to pursue or practise a thing, make a practice of, make it one's business." As I've said before, I am NOT any kind of classical scholar or any more than a novice student of Ancient Greek, but I don't think it should be hard to find a definition near to "addicted" using standard reference works.

So, it would appear to me, that Epicurus was saying that Nausiphanes' students were all hungover, and the teacher himself was "pursuing" things that didn't lead one, in the end, to wisdom "και έπιτετηδευκώς τοιαύτα έ ων ου δυνατόν εις σοφίαν έλθεΐν." I don't see a connection between the students being out drinking and engaged in sex (which would have most likely been part of their activities on some nights) and Nausiphanes' pursuit of certain subjects. I read this as Epicurus saying that he was disillusioned with Nausiphanes because his students didn't give the teacher any respect for the material being taught (they showed up hungover!) and Nausiphanes himself not doing anything worthwhile, in the eyes of Epicurus anyway.

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Quote P. 66: states. In order to escape from these logical dead ends Epicurus worked his way to a novel division of pleasures into those that were basic and those that were decorative.48 The pleasure of being sane and in health is basic and can be enjoyed continually.

I found the designation of pleasures as "basic" or "decorative" novel so followed up on Footnote 48 which cites DL's Live II: 11. DL II: 11 doesn't say anything about pleasure but does mention Metrodorus of Lampsacus. The word usually used to describe "empty" pleasures in the Greek is κενός but I can't see an alternative definition as "decorative" so I was both curious and amused by that description. If someone has a better source for "decorative" pleasures, by all means please share! This is also another "sane mind/sane body" allusion.

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Quote P. 67: This amounts to saying that a nonpurposive Nature had produced a purposive creature, for whom alone an end or goal of living could have a meaning. This is teleology at a minimum. For such a belief no teacher had set a precedent.

I'm actually giving kudos to DeWitt on this one. I like the way he describes that a "nonpurposive" universe can produce a "purposive" being. Thumbs up!

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Quote P. 68: "From the outset you must believe that no other end is gained from the knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether viewed in their associations [with the astral deities] or by themselves, than peace of soul and an abiding faith." 56

The "abiding faith" struck me as another potential way for DeWitt to sneak in the Epicureanism/Christianity parallel, so I took a look at Footnote 56 which references DL X:85:

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"In the first place, remember that, like everything else, knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether taken along with other things or in isolation, has no other end in view than peace of mind and firm conviction."

"Πρῶτον μὲν οὖν μὴ ἄλλο τι τέλος ἐκ132 τῆς περὶ μετεώρων γνώσεως εἴτε κατὰ συναφὴν λεγομένων εἴτε αὐτοτελῶς νομίζειν εἶναι ἤπερ ἀταραξίαν καὶ πίστιν βέβαιον, καθάπερ καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν λοιπῶν."

DeWitt's "abiding faith" and the Perseus Project's "firm conviction" both translate πίστιν βέβαιον. πίστιν is indeed defined as "trust in others, 'faith' (translated into Latin as fides), belief" so "faith" is a fine translation, but I would prefer the other one's "firm conviction." DeWitt's translation just gave me pause in light of his "Epicureanism is hiding in Christianity" proclivities. βέβαιον is simply "firm, steady". Basically, Epicurus is saying this knowledge should give one peace of mind (ἀταραξία in the original) and a firm trust that it's the truth.

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Quote P. 68: This new note is promptly and beautifully struck in the opening words of his exhortation to philosophy, the letter to Menoeceus, which was perhaps intended to compete with the famous Protrepticus of Aristotle: "There is no one for whom the hour has not yet come nor for whom the hour has passed for attending to the health of his soul." 57

This is a novel translation of the beginning of the letter to Menoikos and, I'll give DeWitt kudos for the poetic wordsmithing. Now, the original actually uses νέος "young/youth" and γέρων "old man" so DeWitt's translation is more paraphrase than literal, but that's certainly an acceptable path to take, basically the difference between formal equivalence and dynamic equivalence in Bible translations.

I had to also look up the Protrepticus of Aristotle (reconstructed version) since I was unfamiliar with that work. It sounds like it was written to encourage the young to study philosophy and it is a lost work of that philosopher.

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P. 69 Quote: sage. It must consequently be inferred that before leaving Colophon he had already worked out to its pragmatic implications the old analogy between philosophy and medicine, that all human beings, regardless of age or sex, stood in need of health of mind and the services of the teacher no less than of health of body and the services of the physician.

This appears to hint again at that "Epicurean prayer" notion of "a sound mind in a sound body." I'm still not sold on that characterization of that saying; however, I think DeWitt does a good job here of summing up the universal nature of Epicurean philosophy and the medical analogy.

So, we're ending the chapter on a high note On to Chapter 4!

Quote from Cassius

If I am delayed in responding to more posts in the next 24 hours or so don't be concerned:-) My area had a tornado come through with a wide power outage and I am having to ration my cell phone battery!

OMG Take care and I hope everything is alright soon!

Thanks again! I am finding DeWitt an interesting intellectual and philosophical endeavor. I would agree with you that:

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The value of the DeWitt book is not that it is perfect, but that it raises issues and arguments that are almost totally excluded from contemporary writing about Epicurus. We just have to read and judge for ourselves how much value those arguments have.

And I greatly appreciate your openness to addressing the concerns I posted here and in Chapter 1's thread! I see this as an expression of Epicurean frank speech among friends of the Garden. Thank you!