Posts by Don

Quote from Namcisumeht

Thanks. I find that Epicureanism resonates the most with modern theories of human behavior and the science of happiness(e.g. Daniel Gilbert).

Welcome!

i would agree that positive psychology and the modern science of happiness have echoes of Epicureanism especially when it comes to the importance of social interactions and friendship. I find some of the books and research by Gilbert, Seligman, Csikszentmihalyi, and others very interesting. I've even tried making my way through the free Coursera Science of Happiness course from Yale.

However, I read an article not long ago that made me realize that Epicureanism is NOT identical with positive psychology in its popularized forms:

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/…gion-secularism

"Seligman’s inclusion of material achievement in the components of happiness has also raised eyebrows. He has theorized that people who have not achieved some degree of mastery and success in the world can’t be said to be flourishing. He once described a “thirty-two-year-old Harvard University summa in mathematics who is fluent in Russian and Japanese and runs her own hedge fund” as a “poster child for positive psychology.” But this can make well-being seem exclusive and out of reach, since accomplishment of this kind is not possible to all, or even most."

Whether that's a correct interpretation of Seligman's work is up for debate. If it is, that all sounds very Aristotelian or Peripatetic to me. Epicurus wanted eudaimonia to be accessible to everyone! I think we can learn from a variety of sources - and the more people explore what it takes to truly be happy, the better - but we just have to be ready to read and learn with critical eyes.

I am not on Facebook so I missed this earlier discussion so if y'all would indulge me, I'd like to share a few thoughts.

I was a fan of Alan Watts (waay) back in high school and college. He was a pivotal author in the process of widening my perspectives. However, I grew out of him when I began looking at and reading his sources, but his importance to my early development (and *eventual* arrival at Epicureanism) make me feel obliged to "defend" his work… at least a little.

With that as context, let me first say that I fully agree that there are some VERY un-Epicurean parts to the lecture/video. I would NOT recommend this as an Introduction to Epicureanism in any way. The latter part on listening to the Godhead is WAY to deistic and supernatural for my tastes now and are completely incompatible with Epicurus. No question on that. That all grows out of Watts' Buddhist and Hindu proclivities which, in his idiosyncratic and syncretic style, wants us to listen to the Godhead, Buddha-nature, Brahman, etc., within ourselves. We are all One in the Great Ocean of Being. You are a unique manifestation of a way of the Universe (capital U) knowing itself. NOT Epicurean in any way, shape, or form. Plus, the "amor fati"-sounding portions do sound Stoic.

BUT there are some Epicurean-sounding *pieces* in that video. The metaphor of the education system as churning out cookie cutter results echoes Epicurus' indictment of παιδεία, the educational system and culture in his time, as indoctrination. One of my favorite fragments of Epicurus is:

"Flee from all indoctrination [παιδείαν], O blessed one, and hoist the sail of your own boat."

Another Epicurean bit is Watts' exposition of the limits of pleasure. In the lecture, he talks about the unsatisfactory nature of just accumulating wealth, power, sex, etc. That sounds a lot like Epicurus' indictment of the Cyrenaics and the decadent:

KD 10: If the things that produced the delights of those who are decadent washed away the mind’s fears about astronomical phenomena and death and suffering, and furthermore if they taught us the limits of our pains and desires, then we would have no complaints against them, since they would be filled with every joy and would contain not a single pain or distress (and that’s what is bad).

Watts appears to me to be talking about this very thing. I would also say that I interpret his "We don't know what will give us pleasure" or "We don't know what we desire" as springing from this same context. When Elayne says she thinks she's a good judge of what will give her pleasure, I have no doubt that is true as she is mature in her ability to discern the limits of pleasure and what she feels is natural and necessary for her. Watts is referring to people who are indoctrinated by society and culture to think they NEED as much power as possible, as much money as possible, as much (full in the blank) as possible, to be happy and fulfilled. Watts is saying we need to break out of that conditioning to understand the real "necessary and natural desires" to put Epicurean words in Watts' mouth. It's just that Watts believes what is "necessary and natural" is to listen to the Godhead inside you to free yourself.

Now, in the end, does he arrive at the same overall conclusions I would now or that I think are Epicurean? Oh, absolutely not!! I could see Epicurus engaging him in some frank speech and correction! However, I could also envision the two of them sitting in the Garden heatedly discussing philosophy and sharing some spring water (or tea if Watts brought some along) and cheese and Epicurus waving over Themista to the table saying, "You have to come over and listen to this gentleman. I've been trying to correct him all afternoon. He has glimmers of correct doctrine but way too many crazy gymnosophist ideas… but he is entertaining to listen to."

Welcome, @Callisto !

It's nice not to be the newest member now!

The forum has been welcoming! Looking forward to your joining in.

This is a great list! It has been some time since I've had access to DeWitt, so this is a nice refresher. I don't know why, but it's a little thrill to know that the actual word "Epicurean" appears in the Bible.

Being me, I had to take one of these and trace backwards to see if the original Greek words were the same in the Bible and in Epicurus. I chose Galatians 4:3 to check out for curiosity's sake. The key phrase is τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (ta stoikheia tou kosmou (< "cosmos")) "the basic principles of the world". My question was: Does Epicurus refer to τὰ στοιχεῖα in his extant works? The answer: Yes!

In the Letter to Menoikos we find:

Do and practice, then, the things I have always recommended to you, holding them to be the stairway to a beautiful life.

This is where translations can trip you up! The phrase translated as "stairway to a beautiful life" is στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν which I personally would render something more like "the elements of living beautifully and nobly."

We also find the elements in the Letter to Pythocles which one translation gives as:

"the ultimate elements of things are indivisible" ἢ ὅτι ἄτομα <τὰ> στοιχεῖα

While I realize στοιχεῖα is a fine word that doesn't always have Epicurean implications, it's still interesting to see it used in such disparate texts.

Curiosity assuaged… for now.

Thank you so much for the tips on posting! I do wish to be a good Friend. I tried the removals on this post (both font and size) as an experiment and can see the difference.

Excellent points, Cassius ! Thank you for the reminder about Lucretius. I personally found DRN Book III (the title of which Stalling translates as "Mortality and the Soul") powerful and unexpected on my first readings. I have a lot of highlights and underlines in that one! In fact, I went back through after reading your reply and found my note in my copy for lines 1025-1052 that begins with Lucretius encouraging us to consider reciting those lines from time to time. I take him to mean recitation of all those lines up to 1052 since that includes remembering that even Epicurus died, too. That recitation could constitute one facet of a daily Epicurean practice.

What intrigued me about this Buddhist Mindfulness of Death was seeing it in relation to the Epicurean proclivity for the creation of epitomes and summaries so that we may "practice these and similar things day and night." I saw this item from "enemy territory" as a possible "similar thing." That phrase ("practice these things…") from the Letter to Menoikos, the letter itself being a summary of the teachings, uses the word μελέτα (which Latin translates as meditatio as in Meditatio mortem) where the translation uses "practice." I'm a big proponent of going back to original sources. Dig into the original texts and work forward instead of relying solely on interpreters. In fact, the exact same words - ταῦτα μελέτα - are used in both Menoikos and in I Timothy 4:15-16 which Bible translations render as "Be diligent in these things", "Meditate upon these things", "Practice and work hard on these things", "Remember these things and think about them", and even "Put these things into practice." All of these would be applicable to the ταῦτα μελέτα in Menoikos. Choosing Epicurean summaries, snippets, epitomes, and recitations upon which to "μελέτα," meditate, reflect, remember, and practice strike me as a good basis for a daily practice.

So, just to be clear, I would never recommend that the specifically Buddhist Mindfulness of Death replace reflection on epitomes or readings of Epicurus and Lucretius. What I am suggesting or proposing is that this Buddhist practice could serve as inspiration for an Epicurean one. Using all remedies at their disposal to crack open the hard shell of their own or someone else's fear of death and reluctance to affirm the *fact* of the dissolution of the body into its constituent parts that have no feeling, one could use a systematic remembering of what happens to the body after death to acclimate to that reality. I would contend that this kind of thinking on death would be no more Buddhist than that the Premeditatio Malorum belongs to the Stoics. Cicero traces that back to Euripides in Tusculan Disputations, Book 3. From my reading, both the Stoics and Epicureans have some version of thinking about worst case scenarios to prepare for them, and that idea was simply rolling around in Greek culture since Euripides 150 years before Epicurus and Zeno. Likewise, there were plenty of dead bodies available to ancient Greeks to serve as memento mori in their practice "both night and day" of the finality of death and a reminder of the preciousness of life. I, of course, can't say they *did* this, and lack of evidence can't be used to say "well, they might have." It's frustrating that SO much of Epicurus' work - not to mention Metrodorus' and all the others' - is lost. But I don't think there's anything per se precluding the development of an Epicurean practice of some such exercise as long as it's not caught up with Buddhist trappings of karma, rebirth, and similar superstitions. DRN VI from line 1250 to the end includes a vivid picture of dead bodies. Coupling a recitation of those lines while putting-before-the-eyes a mental visualization of the scene itself *could* be a powerful exercise.

Excellent points, Cassius ! Thank you for the reminder about Lucretius. I personally found DRN Book III (the title of which Stalling translates as "Mortality and the Soul") powerful and unexpected on my first readings. I have a lot of highlights and underlines in that one! In fact, I went back through after reading your reply and found my note in my copy for lines 1025-1052 that begins with Lucretius encouraging us to consider reciting those lines from time to time. I take him to mean recitation of all those lines up to 1052 since that includes remembering that even Epicurus died, too. That recitation could constitute one facet of a daily Epicurean practice.

What intrigued me about this Buddhist Mindfulness of Death was seeing it in relation to the Epicurean proclivity for the creation of epitomes and summaries so that we may "practice these and similar things day and night." I saw this item from "enemy territory" as a possible "similar thing." That phrase ("practice these things…") from the Letter to Menoikos, the letter itself being a summary of the teachings, uses the word μελέτα (which Latin translates as meditatio as in Meditatio mortem) where the translation uses "practice." I'm a big proponent of going back to original sources. Dig into the original texts and work forward instead of relying solely on interpreters. In fact, the exact same words - ταῦτα μελέτα - are used in both Menoikos and in I Timothy 4:15-16 which Bible translations render as "Be diligent in these things", "Meditate upon these things", "Practice and work hard on these things", "Remember these things and think about them", and even "Put these things into practice." All of these would be applicable to the ταῦτα μελέτα in Menoikos. Choosing Epicurean summaries, snippets, epitomes, and recitations upon which to "μελέτα," meditate, reflect, remember, and practice strike me as a good basis for a daily practice.

So, just to be clear, I would never recommend that the specifically Buddhist Mindfulness of Death replace reflection on epitomes or readings of Epicurus and Lucretius. What I am suggesting or proposing is that this Buddhist practice could serve as inspiration for an Epicurean one. Using all remedies at their disposal to crack open the hard shell of their own or someone else's fear of death and reluctance to affirm the *fact* of the dissolution of the body into its constituent parts that have no feeling, one could use a systematic remembering of what happens to the body after death to acclimate to that reality. I would contend that this kind of thinking on death would be no more Buddhist than that the Premeditatio Malorum belongs to the Stoics. Cicero traces that back to Euripides in Tusculan Disputations, Book 3. From my reading, both the Stoics and Epicureans have some version of thinking about worst case scenarios to prepare for them, and that idea was simply rolling around in Greek culture since Euripides 150 years before Epicurus and Zeno. Likewise, there were plenty of dead bodies available to ancient Greeks to serve as memento mori in their practice "both night and day" of the finality of death and a reminder of the preciousness of life. I, of course, can't say they *did* this, and lack of evidence can't be used to say "well, they might have." It's frustrating that SO much of Epicurus' work - not to mention Metrodorus' and all the others' - is lost. But I don't think there's anything per se precluding the development of an Epicurean practice of some such exercise as long as it's not caught up with Buddhist trappings of karma, rebirth, and similar superstitions. DRN VI from line 1250 to the end includes a vivid picture of dead bodies. Coupling a recitation of those lines while putting-before-the-eyes a mental visualization of the scene itself *could* be a powerful exercise.

[ADMIN NOTE: The first several posts here were copied from a thread about Buddhism, but they focus on the issue of death and they belong here too, as they are a good way to start the discussion of dealing with death of loved ones.]

Let me state emphatically first of all that Epicureans are *not* Buddhists. However, to paraphrase Seneca, there's nothing wrong with crossing "into the enemy's camp – not as a deserter, but as a scout." Seneca is well known for favorably quoting Epicurus, but Seneca was definitely no Epicurean. Likewise, we are not Buddhists, but if there is a Buddhist concept or technique that might prove useful, I believe it is at least worth exploring.

First, please allow me to set the stage by quoting several passages with which we're all familiar on the importance of understanding that death is nothing to us:

KD 2: Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved into its elements is without consciousness, and that which is without consciousness is nothing to us.

KD 11: If our suspicions about astronomical phenomena and about death were nothing to us and troubled us not at all, and if this were also the case regarding our ignorance about the limits of our pains and desires, then we would have no need for studying what is natural.

Letter to Menoikos: Become accustomed yourself to hold that for us death is nothing, for all good and evil are in consciousness; and death is the deprivation of consciousness.

And, finally, Seneca who, quoting Epicurus in Letter 26, states that one should "Meditare mortem" or "Think/meditate on death."

So, having a deep, unshakable understanding that death is the end of consciousness, that death dissolves us down to our elements and does away with all feeling, is a requirement to dispel the fear of death. But although Epicurus states that this knowledge will result in dispelling our fear, he doesn't provide a way to get there. There's no path laid out to get to that unshakable knowledge. (Note that I'm not using the word "belief." It's not a "belief" in the colloquial way of understanding that. It is a knowledge of reality.) How can we gain this and make it firm in our minds?

Well, I was recently listening to episode #218 "The Profound Upside of Mortality" of the 10% Happier podcast https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast/where Nikki Mirghafori was talking about, among other things, the Buddhist practice of Mindfulness of Death. I didn't know this woman but I was intrigued by the title. I initially didn't expect to be drawn in, but the more I listened, the more intrigued I became. The Mindfulness of Death practice wasn't mystical. It wasn't supernatural. It was very down-to-earth. It was a concrete way of confronting the reality of death, what it means to be dead, and how you can use it to learn to accept death as a fact of life and to become aware of the preciousness of the life you're living. This struck me as very Epicurean-sounding, which surprised me.

The Buddhist term is Maraṇasati and Wikipedia gives a surprisingly cogent summary of the techniques. The visualizations reminded me of Philodemus' description of the Epicurean practice of setting-before-the-eyes used for therapeutic purposes of combatting the vices of arrogance, anger, etc. An Epicurean variation on this Buddhist practice *could* be a way of setting-before-the-eyes the reality of the finality of death, the dissolution of our atoms, and the preciousness of life.

I share this as a way of engendering discussion in this sub-forum. Let the frank speech begin!

Let me state emphatically first of all that Epicureans are *not* Buddhists. However, to paraphrase Seneca, there's nothing wrong with crossing "into the enemy's camp – not as a deserter, but as a scout." Seneca is well known for favorably quoting Epicurus, but Seneca was definitely no Epicurean. Likewise, we are not Buddhists, but if there is a Buddhist concept or technique that might prove useful, I believe it is at least worth exploring.

First, please allow me to set the stage by quoting several passages with which we're all familiar on the importance of understanding that death is nothing to us:

KD 2: Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved into its elements is without consciousness, and that which is without consciousness is nothing to us.

KD 11: If our suspicions about astronomical phenomena and about death were nothing to us and troubled us not at all, and if this were also the case regarding our ignorance about the limits of our pains and desires, then we would have no need for studying what is natural.

Letter to Menoikos: Become accustomed yourself to hold that for us death is nothing, for all good and evil are in consciousness; and death is the deprivation of consciousness.

And, finally, Seneca who, quoting Epicurus in Letter 26, states that one should "Meditare mortem" or "Think/meditate on death."

So, having a deep, unshakable understanding that death is the end of consciousness, that death dissolves us down to our elements and does away with all feeling, is a requirement to dispel the fear of death. But although Epicurus states that this knowledge will result in dispelling our fear, he doesn't provide a way to get there. There's no path laid out to get to that unshakable knowledge. (Note that I'm not using the word "belief." It's not a "belief" in the colloquial way of understanding that. It is a knowledge of reality.) How can we gain this and make it firm in our minds?

Well, I was recently listening to episode #218 "The Profound Upside of Mortality" of the 10% Happier podcast https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast/where Nikki Mirghafori was talking about, among other things, the Buddhist practice of Mindfulness of Death. I didn't know this woman but I was intrigued by the title. I initially didn't expect to be drawn in, but the more I listened, the more intrigued I became. The Mindfulness of Death practice wasn't mystical. It wasn't supernatural. It was very down-to-earth. It was a concrete way of confronting the reality of death, what it means to be dead, and how you can use it to learn to accept death as a fact of life and to become aware of the preciousness of the life you're living. This struck me as very Epicurean-sounding, which surprised me.

The Buddhist term is Maraṇasati and Wikipedia gives a surprisingly cogent summary of the techniques. The visualizations reminded me of Philodemus' description of the Epicurean practice of setting-before-the-eyes used for therapeutic purposes of combatting the vices of arrogance, anger, etc. An Epicurean variation on this Buddhist practice *could* be a way of setting-before-the-eyes the reality of the finality of death, the dissolution of our atoms, and the preciousness of life.

I share this as a way of engendering discussion in this sub-forum. Let the frank speech begin!

I had to check the original DL: Περι εὐγενείας. Thank you again, Elli !

Thank you for the pleasant greeting! It *is* actually the Greek form of my real middle name. I felt it would be an appropriate one for the forum. I had forgotten about Metrodorus' work. Thanks for the reminder!

A foundational practice of Epicureans, both ancient and modern, is the exercise of what is usually referred to as "choice and avoidance." Epicurus' own writings return regularly to this. Cicero and Seneca both mention this in relation to Epicureans. Philodemus and Lucretius discuss the importance of "choice and avoidance." It is one of the most fundamental practices we do as we do all things as if Epicurus were watching. The standard, ubiquitous translation in scholarly and popular texts alike is "choice and avoidance."

However, the word "avoidance" strikes me as making this decision less immediate, less urgent, and less important than it truly is. We "avoid" mud puddles as we walk. We "avoid" potholes on the road. We "avoid" eating fatty foods. I know we're not into definitions, best with me one moment: Merriam-Webster defines "avoid" as "to keep away from : shun" and simply "to refrain from." To me, these make avoidance sound passive, like nothing more than keeping our distance from something and not truly confronting the options with which we must deal on a moment-by-moment basis. These definitions dance around the ideas conveyed by the Epicurean "choice and avoidance" practice, and the word itself strikes me as inadequate.

So, I returned to the sources. Epicurus urges us to say what we mean without obfuscation. What are the actual words that Epicurus used when speaking of "choice and avoidance"? Epicurus didn't speak English. So how did he himself convey this idea in Greek? What would Epicurus' prolepsis be off his words?

We can begin by looking at the title of Epicurus' lost work, Περὶ Αἱρέσεων καὶ Φυγῶν [Peri Haireseōn kai Phugōn] or On Choice and Avoidance as it's usually translated. First, the ending -ων is plural and would suggest, at least, On Choices and Avoidances, but that's the least of our concerns right now.

Let's take the first noun: αἱρέσεων, the genitive plural of αἵρεσῐς (hairesis). Αἵρεσῐς does indeed mean a deliberate choice, and it is also, coincidentally, the origin of the English word heresy. So, for now, we can accept that "choice" is an acceptable choice, as it were, to translate that word of the title.

Φυγῶν, on the other hand, is the genitive plural of φυγή [phugē] with connotations such as "flight in battle; dative φυγῇ adverbially, in hasty flight" and "flight or escape from a thing, avoidance of it." So, φυγῶν doesn't simply connote "avoidance" but the fleeing from something or the hasty escape from something. One doesn't simply "avoid" conflict in a battle; one runs from it. It is a matter of urgency!

So at this point, the title of Epicurus' work might better be conveyed by Concerning Choices and Fleeing. What other words does Epicurus use to convey the practice of "'choice' and 'avoidance'"?

Consider Principal Doctrine 25: "If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to avoid or pursue something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony." Here we are told to decide "whether to avoid or pursue something" εἴ τε φυγὴν εἴ τε δίωξιν. We encounter φυγὴν again, but now αἵρεσῐς "choice" is replaced by δίωξιν meaning "chase, pursuit." So, "choice and avoidance" in this case takes on a sense of "from what should I flee or what should I pursue." Again, giving us a richer sense of the practice.

A last instance I'll consider is Epicurus' Letter to Menoikos where we read: "we honor [pleasure] in everything we accept or reject" in one translation of a line and "[Pleasure] is the starting-point of every choice and of every aversion" in another translation of the same line. In these, we are to "accept and reject" or to engage in "choice" and "aversion." What does the original say? Αἱρέσεως καὶ φυγῆς. The same words as the title of the lost book, but this time with different shades of meaning in translations.

In conclusion, "choice and avoidance" takes on a much deeper and richer sense for me if I go back to our founder's words. We must use English words like "choice," "chase," "pursuit," and "accept" to convey the full range of meaning of the first term; and "avoidance," "flight," "escape," "rejection," and "aversion" for the second. It's not simply "choosing" one option. It's not simply stepping around something to "avoid" it. It goes further than that.

Personally, I prefer to paraphrase the title of Epicurus' work and to refer to our practice by something like On Acceptance and Rejection or On Pursuit and Flight, or even On Things to Choose and Things from which to Flee. There are pains we should accept, and pleasures from which we should flee. There are pleasures we should pursue, and pains from which we should escape before they capture us. To me, this makes us much more responsible for our decisions περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν and much more active in our lives than if we're simply picking one thing and stepping around something else. We are weighing the implications of our options and consciously pursuing the correct course of action or fleeing from the negative course as if from a terrible battle to literally save our lives.

I'm curious to hear other takes on whether it matters what we call this practice. Or do we just do it!

May you practice well! Εὖ πράττειν!

I would agree that it is the Epicurean "perspective" on science that was and continues to be worthy of respect and appreciation. Epicurus taught that our senses were a fundamental way of assessing reality. I found myself thinking of this very thing the other day. One major change in the exploration of reality from ancient Greece to the present has been an ever-widening expansion of our senses. I have to believe that Epicurus would have welcomed perceptions via scientific instruments to get at accurate pictures of what is real to combat supernatural thinking. Knowing that the atoms in our bodies come from the hearts of exploded stars connects us to the cosmos inextricably. I find this kind of insight in no way conflicts with Epicureanism.

Peace and Safety!

It's a pleasure to have found this site and forum. It's been a long road to The Garden, but, in many ways, I feel a resonance with Epicureanism that I haven't felt in awhile. I've made my way through a number of paths. Years ago, I felt an affinity to Buddhism. More recently for various reasons, I found myself drawn to exploring ancient Greek philosophy. First, the standards (Plato, Aristotle), then the Stoics. Via the Stoics, I began reading about these Epicureans. That was an eye-opener! Ancient Greeks (and Lucretius) who spoke of atoms, of superfluous gods, of no fear of death because afterwards we don't exist, many beings on many worlds. Wow! And as I delved deeper, I found more to lure me in further. I began reading. Found Diogenes Laertius' Lives X, then Lucretius (Stalling), Diogenes Oinoanda; then DeWitt, then academic treatments likeThe Ethics of Philodemus by Tsouna; Hadot; Nussbaum's The Therapy of Desire; Tim O'Keefe; most recently Catherine Wilson. I'm still torn on Cicero. He's no friend to Epicureanism but he's useful. I've recently started Frances Wright.

Using the list:

1 The Biography of Epicurus By Diogenes Laertius (Chapter 10). This includes all Epicurus' letters and the Authorized Doctrines. Supplement with the Vatican list of Sayings.

2 "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - Norman DeWitt

3 "On The Nature of Things"- Lucretius

4 Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

6 The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda Martin Ferguson Smith translation using website.

I've also been using Epicurus' writings to study Classical Greek which has been enlightening... And fun!

In closing: May you practice well and may you your life be lived with purpose! Εὖ πράττειν καὶ Σπουδαίως ζῆν.