Posts by Don

Quote from JJElbert

Book VII - Sepulchral Epigrams

No. 72 - Menander

Quote

On Epicurus and Themistocles

"Hail, ye twin-born sons of Neocles, of whom the one saved his country from slavery the other from folly."

Translated W. R. Paton

Display More

One thing that struck me here was the Νεοκλειδα Neocleida "twin-born sons of Neocles" (both their fathers were named Neocles). This echoes the designation of Agamemnon and Menelaus as the Atreidai "two sons of Atreus" in the Iliad. Neocleida is simply in the vocative dual case of address as in "O sons pair of Neocles!"

Joshua what a service you're providing by posting all these! I just made it through all your current threads. I was going to like and thank every one, but I thought that might be overkill. Please take this post as a virtual pan-thank-you! I especially appreciate your including the original texts!! I may go through and pick out a few favorite lines or words. For example, line 3 has εικαδα δειπνιζων (eikada deipnizōn) is "the feast of the twentieth". The fact that it's the ενιαυσιον"annual" is a little surprising but maybe they had one big one a year where everyone was invited in addition to monthly smaller events.

Check out what came in on interlibrary loan this afternoon! I'll share thoughts etc on this thread. Stay tuned...

I don't think you're doing it, but I don't think it's fair to slight the Tetrapharmakos itself for it's being misused.

I still maintain it's a nice direct link for modern "practicing" Epicureans back to our classical forebears.

Consider ο θεός in this case to read "the divine" as in "that which is blessed and incorruptible."

The tetrapharmakos uses singular ο θεός (the) god but I wouldn't read monotheism into this. That's a regular construction in ancient Greek. The singular can be used to refer to gods/deity in a general sense. There is definitely no "implicit approval of monotheism" implied her

Yes, getting a look at Sbordone would be nice but I would rather see Angeli: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/800107647

Sbordone tries to say the title of PHerc 1005 is Pros Tous Sophistas "Against the Sophists" but he is blue-skying that last word. The final word of the title on the papyrus is missing, torn off. All that's there is Pros Tous... ΠΡΟC ΤΟΥC... "Against/To The..." To imply otherwise is disingenuous. Angeli leaves the title alone if I remember correctly. That's why I'm a little mistrustful of Sbordone.

So it seems to me that, according to that article:

1. The tetrapharmakos is a legitimate, authentic Epicurean epitome.
2. It could be used for several purposes including instruction for those who didn't have the time or education to study the full texts themselves.
3. It could also be used by more scholarly students of the philosophy to keep key points more readily at hand and to serve as "une invitation à la réflexion et au calcul" an invitation to reflection and calculation. (I think they're referring to the calculation of "choices and rejections.")
4. That being said, Philodemus definitely advocated study of the actual texts was the best course of action in studying the philosophy.

I literally just found this. It looks promising if you can read French:

https://journals.openedition.org/philosant/3044?lang=en

One can also run it through Google Translate it you're using Chrome.

Sorry. Some confusion on my part. It's actually the one right above the image you clipped.

column 5 P.Herc. 1005 col. 4

(I think it's just a transcription vs physical scroll numbering thing)

The Tetrapharmakos starts on line 8 there.

You'll see the word itself half on line 8, ending in line 9:

μένο̣[ν] ἡ τετραφάρμα- (menon hē tetrapharma-)
κος· 'ἄφοβον ὁ θεός, (kos; "aphobon ho theos,...)

I'm going to try and puzzle through the immediate context of those surrounding lines and columns. Don't expect anything for a little while but I'll keep y'all posted.

The Tetrapharmakos appears in Column V... Of course, that's not one the article translates!

But I did find the transcription of the entire PHerc 1005! http://papyri.info/dclp/62437

Philodemus, Against/To the ... (Πρὸς τοὺς [ – ], P.Herc. 1005) has been translated/edited at least twice into Italian:

1. Francesco Sbordone. Philodemi Adversus [Sophistas] e Papyro Herculanensi 1005 (Naples: L. Loffredo, 1947)
2. Anna Angeli. Filodemo, Agli Amici di Scuola (PHerc. 1005) (Naples: Bibliopolis, 1988).

See also https://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-ep…rmakos.html?m=1 where the Tetrapharmakos and its context are on p.87 of Sbordone.

Hiram appears to be referencing Les Epicureans again in his post on P. Herc 1005. And that French work appears to include a translation so I'm inclined to accept his take although it would be nice to see his source (even if I don't read French).

I also found an article in Italian that discussed P.Herc 1005 (attached). I ran the Italian sections from the manuscript through Google Translate:

Col. II
<I therefore agree, as I said at the beginning, on the fact that among those who want epicurean passphrases some say and write many things with material affirmed from various parts and many personal things in disagreement with respect to the content of the writings of the school and some things that are detached from those writes superficially and hastily. But I'll make a distinction between the things said by them. If indeed ...>

Col. III
This is not possible at all, unless even the things that all those who entered the sect after Ermarco did, someone present wanted and done in the same way, a sosa that will not be able to prove, I believe, before men are all black and small and misshapen. But if they did not take the name of Epicureans in conformity with those who wrote the dondamenral books, they are not worthy of this name>. >>

Col. VII
<If we call them by the names of wise men in general, we do not descend from those who have become worthy of memory and gritudine, not for some, but for all, and this we do not wish that it will happen to some of our friends, but we turn the disease towards the wild goats. If, on the other hand, one calls with these names and other similar ones the one who has learned to understand by method what is found in the books of the Masters in order to contribute something in a single point regarding those books, they are not wise but unworthy of that denomination. >>

Col. XII
<< ... with a comparison through the juxtaposition of his phrases in other places and in the first book of the Aristaia (?), he who was proud to have put together the documents found in Epicurus and who judged this, as it actually is , superior in all expressions to the 'moderns' and thought that a very serious injustice would be claimed against him, indeed an act of impiety performed, if ... >>

Col. XV
<< ... so that even in the most varied ways they start to defame the ways of life, both the procurement of friends and the relationships of love and the single companions, as if they had not read the precepts of the school, having to perčsJmpio themî € considered enemies both if they have become completely evil (among those completely devoid of philosophical education not many are balanced people) as if they are good (even among those who follow other schools or who deserted), without spreading slander or causing harm. >>

Col. XIX
<< and for Zeus we on the one hand defend ourselves by opposing ourselves without giving in, on the other we discover that we are writing dispassionately about ways of living.That was not the first behavior held by the first philosophies that, when they become familiar with those they fall into error by mistake on their own or in the company of others, they do not remain attached to them and neither, when they come across irreconcilable people of the external world, do we clearly demonstrate.

Col. XX
<< ... also with regard to the reading and writing of books he can closely follow those (the Masters) and he does not judge as evil that kind of writings on which we are investigating; therefore whoever violates the measure in excess or in defect and behaves inappropriately in fundamental things will be classified as incompetent in relation to the whole discipline. And I to those who have lain as incompetent and who are discovered as such <I will never cease to resist.

I'll reply more fully later, but the Tetrapharmakos is contained in P.Herc 1005, column V.

Here is a page I just found from Hiram:

https://societyofepicurus.com/on-philodemus-scroll-1005/

He says: Philodemus is aware of the utility of summaries and outlines, and in fact not only is he (and/or his Scholarch Zeno of Sidon) responsible for the shortened formulation known as the Tetrapharmakos (Four Cures), but he also instructs his students to write outlines of the doctrines on wealth. So he is making full use of these outlines and summaries (also known as Epitomes) in his own method of teaching, and yet he also instructs his students to delve into the sources and read the books. So he is NOT telling people to avoid the use of outlines–he would not have forbidden a practice that he himself engaged in. What he was saying is that the outlines are tools for memorizing and learning, not an excuse to neglect our philosophical studies.

One of the reasons I like the Tetrapharmakos is because it's short and easy to memorize in ancient Greek. I find myself reciting it regularly throughout the day.

But another reason I like it is because it challenges me. Is pain *really* easy to endure? Do I believe that? Is pleasure easy to procure? Do I *really* believe - accept - that there's nothing to fear from the gods? That being dead *does* come with no risk? It brings these tenets up to consciousness and makes me confront my doubts and ingrained beliefs.

[Admin note: This discussion began as a response by Don to a comment made by Charles in this Lucretius Today podcast thread: RE: Episode Forty-Seven - Death is Nothing To Us . It deserves to stand alone, so was cut from there and placed here. The thread now shows as started by Godfrey due to the way it was moved, but this post by Don was in fact the thread-starter.]

In light of this week's episode, I have to stand up for the Tetrapharmakos. I don't expect to change Charles's mind but I felt compelled to say at least my two cents in support of the 4-fold Medicine.

Personally, I find the Tetrapharmakos to be a satisfying direct link back to the classical Epicureans. I haven't been able to determine if Philodemus was pro or con regarding the Tetrapharmakos, but I know it's quoted in the ancient source. That appeals to me. And *some* Epicureans were using it for sure.

I also don't see it as an evangelizing tool but rather as a succinct "creed" encapsulating key points of Epicurus's philosophy.

To work through the four lines:

Ἄφοβον ὁ θεός,

Aphobon ho theos

(A+phobon > English phobia)

"The god causes no fear" or "We have nothing to fear from the gods."

Why? See PD1.

ἀνύποπτον ὁ θάνατος

Anupopton ho thanatos

ἀνύποπτον carries the idea of "without suspicion" or "free from risk" We should approach death (thanatos) without suspicion since it is free from risk. See PD2 and other writings of Epicurus.

καὶ τἀγαθὸν μὲν εὔκτητον,

kai t'agathon men euktēton,

Kai ...Men = and...on the one hand, ...

τἀγαθὸν is The (Highest) Good which is pleasure.

εὔκτητον means "easy to procure" but this refers to the fact that pleasure is readily at hand if we acknowledge it. Additionally, the necessary and natural desires are "easy to procure."

τὸ δὲ δεινὸν εὐεκκαρτέρητον

to de deinon euekkarterēton.

de = on the other hand..

to deinon = The Terrible, in contrast to The Good, = pain (deinon > dinosaur)

"Pain" can be "easily endured" or "easily endured with patience." Why? Because PD4.

I noted you referred to the author as "he" a couple times. At the risk of being pedantic, the author is a woman: https://portal.uniri.hr/portfelj/933

I was listening to this episode of the Hidden Brain podcast this morning:

https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/where-gratitude-gets-you/

I found echoes of Epicurus's mentions of gratitude throughout, but the section on the "emotions" starting around 17:41 stuck out at me. It seemed to me that their mention of "emotions" could easily be replaced by the pathē of pleasure/pain. They talk about choosing the best course of action, etc. The rower's "pride" could easily be replaced by the "sense of pleasure."

Interested to read thoughts if anyone listens to the episode.

Quote from Bartleby

Is there anything extant where Epicurus discusses the three types pleasures? Or is that all just second hand?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1
That's a link to Diogenes Laertius's Lives, Book X. The discussion of the desires is toward the end of verse 127 in the Letter to Menoikeus. That's one place Epicurus talks about the categories of desires.

Welcome, Bartleby !

I don't know if this will help you answer your question, but I thought I'd share this section from the website I put together on the characteristics of the Epicurean sage per Diogenes Laertius's list. This is the section specifically on sexual relationships: https://sites.google.com/view/epicurean…hips?authuser=0

Quote from Cassius

Don as for an example of the drift toward asceticism which is so widespread, check out this post: Is Romantic Love a Vainglory

Yep. Noticed that "drift" there too.

Quote from Cassius

i do have a tendency to be sarcastic and hyperbolic and without hearing my voice that can be a danger I have to watch.

But I will say in accord with the letter to Menoeceus that I would rather worship at the altar of a revealed religion any day of the week rather than give in to an across the board asceticism in the name of "freedom from pain" or in the name of "virtue."

How do you say amen in Greek? Oh, yeah....

ἀμήν!!