Posts by Don

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius  

  • A Feeling Something Like Loneliness

    Quote from Cassius

    Reminds me of a line we don't talk about too often:

    Quote

    We must then bear in mind that the future is neither ours, nor yet wholly not ours, so that we may not altogether expect it as sure to come, nor abandon hope of it, as if it will certainly not come.

    This almost sounds like a Stoic quote, but I'm glad of that! They don't own this concept of being aware of what's in our control and what isn't. This is a good one!

  • Ruminating on desires and on the absence of pain….

    You're absolutely right that if Epicurus didn't address "everyday fears" there wouldn't be any use to his philosophy. So, that being said, I think you're on track in that we have to assume he did. In my view, Epicurus was adamant that philosophy had to have practical applications for one's whole life; otherwise, it was useless.

    In my reading of your post, it seems to me to go back to assessing what will happen if this desire is fulfilled and what if it is not. Your diving example is a good example of this practical application. Philosophy doesn't need to be Capital-P Philosophical. There's no ultimate cosmic outcome either way in jumping. It's not a meaning of life epiphany if you jump or don't jump. BUT (unbeknownst to you at the time), you weighed the benefits of jumping against jumping and found you were curious enough to overcome your fear to see if jumping vs not jumping provided more pleasure. I'm sure there was an aspect of peer pressure too that could have brought some pain. Jumping eliminated that too.

    It's important to remember too from that excerpt from the Letter that Epicurus didn't write "happiness" with the baggage that English word has. It's part of it, but the word he used is eudaimonia. I've gone through and pulled out other occurrences to give maybe a better idea what that word means:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia

    VS 33. The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for **happiness.** σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν [hope or expect to have] κἂν <διὶ [dative of Zeus]> ὑπὲρ **εὐδαιμονίας** μαχέσαιτο. [contend/compete]

    Letter to Menoikeus: Someone who says that the time to love and practice wisdom has not yet come or has passed is like someone who says that the time for **happiness** has not yet come or has passed.

    ὁ δὲ λέγων ἢ μήπω τοῦ φιλοσοφεῖν ὑπάρχειν ὥραν ἢ παρεληλυθέναι τὴν ὥραν, ὅμοιός ἐστιν τῷ λέγοντι πρὸς **εὐδαιμονίαν** ἢ μὴ παρεῖναι τὴν ὥραν ἢ μηκέτι εἶναι.

    Therefore, you *must* study and meditate on those things which produce **eudaimonia!** For if that is present, we truly have everything; but if that is not present, we will do everything to have it.

    μελετᾶν οὖν χρὴ τὰ ποιοῦντα τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν, εἴπερ παρούσης μὲν αὐτῆς πάντα ἔχομεν, ἀπούσης δέ πάντα πράττομεν εἰς τὸ ταύτην ἔχειν.

    Letter to Pythocles: DL X[116]

    [116] For such folly as this would not possess the most ordinary being if ever so little enlightened, much less one who enjoys **perfect felicity.**

    "All this, Pythocles, you should keep in mind ;

    οὐδὲ γὰρ εἰς τὸ τυχὸν ζῷον, κἂν <εἰ> μικρὸν χαριέστερον εἴη, ἡ τοιαύτη μωρία ἐμπέσοι, μὴ ὅτι εἰς παντελῆ **εὐδαιμονίαν** κεκτημένον [aquire, possess, own].

    "Ταῦτα δὴ πάντα, Πυθόκλεις, μνημόνευσον:

    Laërtius commentary not Epicurus: DL X [121]

    [121] Two sorts of **happiness** can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

    We must now proceed to his letter.

    "Epicurus to Menoeceus, greeting.

    Τὴν **εὐδαιμονίαν** διχῆ νοεῖσθαι, τήν τε ἀκροτάτην, οἵα ἐστὶ περὶ τὸν θεόν, ἐπίτασιν οὐκ ἔχουσαν: καὶ τὴν <κατὰ τὴν> προσθήκην καὶ ἀφαίρεσιν ἡδονῶν.

    Μετιτέον δ᾽ ἐπὶ τὴν ἐπιστολήν.

    "Ἐπίκουρος Μενοικεῖ χαίρειν.

    Paragraph directly before DL gives the Kuriai Doxai: Come, then, let me set the seal, so to say, on my entire work as well as on this philosopher's life by citing his Sovran Maxims,138 therewith bringing the whole work to a close and making the end of it to coincide with the beginning of happiness.

    Καὶ φέρε οὖν δὴ νῦν τὸν κολοφῶνα, ὡς ἂν εἴποι τις, ἐπιθῶμεν τοῦ παντὸς συγγράμματος καὶ τοῦ βίου τοῦ φιλοσόφου, τὰς Κυρίας αὐτοῦ δόξας παραθέμενοι καὶ ταύταις τὸ πᾶν σύγγραμμα κατακλείσαντες, τέλει χρησάμενοι τῇ τῆς **εὐδαιμονίας** ἀρχῇ.

    548. **Happiness** and bliss# are produced not by great riches nor vast possessions nor exalted occupations nor positions of power, but rather by peace of mind, freedom from pain, and a disposition of the soul that sets its limits in accordance with nature. τὸ **εὔδαιμον** καὶ μακάριον οὐ χρημάτων πλῆθος οὐδὲ πραγμάτων ὄγκος οὐδʼ ἀρχαί τινες ἔχουσιν οὐδὲ δυνάμεις, ἀλλʼ ἀλυπία καὶ πραότης παθῶν καὶ διάθεσις ψυχῆς τὸ κατὰ φύσιν ὁρίζουσα.

    #The same word is used here as the word describing the gods in Principal Doctrine 1 and is usually translated blessed, blissful there.

    There's a lot going on and translating it happiness does the word/concept a disservice.

    Finally, your point about "

    it wouldn’t lead him to avoid his work and sit in his room on a zafu cushion" seems to me a non sequitur. Meditation does not mean avoiding work. I'm not soapboxing here, but I see no issue with incorporating meditation ("on a zafu cushion") into an Epicurean practice. It can be a way of bringing clarity to one's mind, calming thoughts, and being better able to assess "what will happen if this desire is fulfilled/unfulfilled" in the moment.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking post!!

  • Episode Seventy-Three - More on The Sun, The Moon, And Related Astronomical Questions

    Some episode notes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berossus?wprov=sfla1 The Chaldean/Babylonian astronomer

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…try=pedetemptim pedetemptim...

    And the elephant reference http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…8&lang=original There's also the superstition that elephants won't cross an unsafe bridge, but I'm not sure how old that is. "Popular belief held that elephants had instincts that would make them avoid setting foot on unsafe structures." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eads_Bridge?wprov=sfla1

  • Toward a New Interlinear Gloss of De Rerum Natura

    Quote from Don
    Quote from Don

    Agreed. "Readers Digest Condensed Epicurean philosophy"

    I checked the Arundel manuscript of DL and the Principal Doctrines are <6 pages. I'm curious to check any breaks in the text and see if they line up to natural breaks in the text flow of ideas/themes.

    Lo and behold, I found some earlier Greek manuscripts (< 1400) digitized online so I can't compare those too. Don't hold your breath, but it'll be on my list of things to do. :)

  • Toward a New Interlinear Gloss of De Rerum Natura

    Quote from Cassius

    Don is there a greek word for "book" there in DL or does it give any hint that it might be a "list" rather than a "book"?

    βιβλίων

    ... the Epicurus's principal doctrines, the noblest, as you know, of the books...

    It goes on to say the book holds a summary of The Man's (Epicurus) wisdom of the beliefs (dogmata δόγματα,)

    [PS. I know that's a really clunky quick-n-dirty translation btw. All the words are in order but...]

  • Toward a New Interlinear Gloss of De Rerum Natura

    Quote from Cassius

    Looks like it is Lucian I am remembering, so the issue would be the word in Lucian's Greek --

    Lucian, section 47:

    τὰς Ἐπικούρου κυρίας δόξας, τὸ κάλλιστον, ὡς οἶσθα, τῶν βιβλίων καὶ κεφαλαιώδη περιέχον τῆς τἀνδρὸς σοφίας τὰ δόγματα
    So, you're correct. Lucian specifically uses κυρίας δόξας kurias doxas, simply the inflected form of Kuriai Doxai, and, of course, we have the title in the list in DL as Godfrey points out. Plus it works make sense for DL to include that book just like he included the letters.,

  • Toward a New Interlinear Gloss of De Rerum Natura

    Quote from Cassius

    It seems to me that i have read it theorized that they were never numbered in the ancient world at all, and that it was read like a book, like the letter to menoeceus, and in fact what we consider the 40 doctrines may well be one of the books of Epicurus that Cicero refers to as -- gosh what was it -- the "celestial book?" This is definitely something that i've always wanted to pursue because I think the numbering is a MAJOR problem for interpretation, especially for what we consider to be 3 and 4, which I think ought all to be read together and probably closely in context of 2. Splitting them apart really adds to the problem with making sense of them

    Now THAT might be an interesting project: to reconstruct the "book" of the Principle Doctrines... Or would that be deconstruct the "numbered list"?

  • Toward a New Interlinear Gloss of De Rerum Natura

    Quote from JJElbert
    Quote

    The Greek/Latin edition of 1692 by Marcus Meibomius divided each of the ten books into paragraphs of equal length, and progressively numbered them, providing the system still in use today.

    Via Wikipedia.

    So it looks like the length of the paragraph was the determining factor. I know this is the case with the Letter to Menoikeus because there's no rhyme or reason with the breaks for the verses/paragraphs/settings.

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