Posts by Don

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"Not wrong but superfluous"

That's a great quote.

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Nihilist und Christ: das reimt sich, das reimt sich nicht bloss. The Antichrist (1888)

They don't rhyme in the original. Perhaps, he was talking metaphorically. That would be my guess.

Although, I guess they do end in -ist so they sort of rhyme.

At the risk of unveiling a rough draft, here's the first run at a poem I've been working on to get at the usefulness but inadequacies of translation.

Frank criticism welcomed! (Talking to you Joshua )

A translation makes us

Believe we can

Comprehend a language

Distant in time,

Evocative, nuanced,

Foreign, strange, new.

Giving us words to read

Holds before us

Imperfect reflections.

Just consider,

Kings and peasants would speak

Living Latin.

Melodic Greeks sang, but,

Now, we must trust

One translator's choices.

Pursue connotations!

Question their decisions!

Read carefully!

Sense something deeper and.

Treasures await!

Uncover mosaics,

Varied colors

Waiting discovery like

Xenos: stranger.

Yet also visitor.

Zeroing in

Yields riches unforseen.

Xenos: serve guests

With hospitality.

Vow to dig in!

Upset preconceptions,

Tempted to start

Seeing complexities.

Read beneath lines,

Questioning the choices

Presented there.

One word fixed on the page

Now expanding its sense

Makes you appreciate

Language becoming yours.

Keep comparing translations,

Juxtapose and compare.

Increasing understanding.

Hold decisions in check.

Good enough is not sufficient.

Flowing words fill us

Evoking

Delight,

Comprehend

Beyond

A translation.

Quote from Cassius

To the contrary, he used those to build his own enthusiasm for finding out the truth and responding to them

I would add that he didn't necessarily aim to "finding out the truth" but rather, it seems from the sources, to coming up with enough plausible, physical explanations that would rule out the need for any supernatural intervention.

What about:

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Note: So, Philodemus may or may not have actually lived in Herculaneum (instead possibly having a residence in Naples), but we know his works lived in Herculaneum without a doubt. Fairly comprehensive bio at https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/philodemus/#NapHerVilPap

Fascinating British documentary on Herculaneum. No mention of Epicureans, but a fascinating look at everyday life in the ancient Roman town that was once home to Philodemus.

And as we've mentioned before, the sequential numbering of the Principal Doctrines is a (relatively) modern convention. The early manuscripts just present the doctrines as a continuous text.

It's related to Latin beo

Latin Word Study Tool

The Latin translation of μακάριος is beatus:

Charlton T. Lewis, An Elementary Latin Dictionary, beātus

Quote from Cassius

Thanks for the references, I always recoil in distaste at reading that, especially

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¹²Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.....

Few doctrines are as life-destroying.

Amen! ( )

Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ

Beatitudes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ

Just remember, the original is in Greek. The Latin is a translation first done by "St" Jerome if I remember correctly. It may be interesting to see how those verses with makarios and aphthartos were translated into the Latin.

τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρτον are the Greek words used in PD1

I recently discovered that the famous Beatitudes in the New Testament use the same word as Epicurus's Principal Doctrine 1: μακάριος (makarios) "blessed" https://biblehub.com/greek/3107.htm I'm *not* saying that the Epicureans influenced the Bible writers (a la Dewitt), but I thought it might be instructive to see that word used in a more familiar context to add a different level of meaning to the Doctrine. The Beatitudes obviously applied to people not gods. So, how can we interpret PD 1 to also apply to human beings? There is commentary out there along those lines, so I'm not going to outline it all here. Just something for thought on this post.

Since I found μακάριος in the Beatitudes, I also decided to see how the other descriptor in PD1, άφθαρτος (aphthartos) "incorruptible," appeared in the Bible: https://biblehub.com/greek/862.htm I Peter 3:4 is an interesting context "the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit." and 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable." Again, this imperishability is experienced by living humans in this context.

Personally, I think this strengthens the "idealist" concept of the Epicurean gods (a la Sedley et al). I've read papers that say that people/sages can/could become "gods" in the Epicurean sense if they become exemplars of the philosophy in life and, after they die, can continue as an imperishable concept in the minds of those who come after them. The sage doesn't exist anymore, but their example is άφθαρτον "imperishable" because it now relies only on recollecting the images of their example.

The Latin of that phrase is:

... in luminis erigit oras.

Luminis is what it looked like: light (> luminous)

Interestingly, here's the dictionary entry for ora:

Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, ōra

See especially: 2. Poet.: luminis orae, the world, the earth, life, light

And

Charlton T. Lewis, An Elementary Latin Dictionary, ōra

An interesting turn of phrase.

Loeb: Lifts it into the precincts of light.

Stallings: lifts them up into the boundaries of light.

Quote from Cassius

He also frequently focuses on trivial or insignificant details of his subjects' lives

That's what makes him fun to read

I'll put in a plug for Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Eminent Philosophers, Book X. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1 As far as I'm concerned, it's never too early to delve into the ancient sources themselves. And Diogenes is accessible for the most part (and kind of fun and gossipy) and includes the actual writings of Epicurus.

Quote from Paquin

That looks an excellent resource. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. With all the close attention to the different translations in the Lucretius podcast, I do find myself wondering about the original Latin wording from time to time.

I have been a BIG fan of the Perseus project for years! They also have online editions of Diogenes Laertius, Cicero, and many more. Check out the Collections link at the top of the page.

I'll be interested to read your take on the Latin if you decide to delve into that from time to time.