Posts by Don

https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/nancy-sherman-382

In the interests of keeping up with our rivals, I started to listen to this 10% Happier episode with Dr. Nancy Sherman (wasn't aware of her) who just published a book on Stoicism. I haven't finished the episode yet, so if anyone also listens, feel free to share your thoughts.

I think there are practices that are or could be common to Epicureans and Stoics from a shared Greek culture. So I'm interested to hear her take on those.

However, she lost my sympathetic ear early on when she talked about Stoicism helps deal with tragedy and she used the example of Agamemnon *having* to sacrifice his child to sail. Just in passing, you might miss it if you're not paying attention, but... What, what?! I immediately thought of the Epicurean response to the murder of Iphegenia: Tantum religio potuit suadare malorum! So, yeah, if that's the Stoic response to that scene in Greek myth, no thank you.

They also talk briefly about Stoicism's embrace by the "Manosphere". I hadn't heard about that until recently, but I've also read a little stuff from Donna Zuckerberg and her research. If interested, just search online for her name and Stoicism or "red pill." You'll get results.

The thing that gets me with modern Stoics is their lack of "source" for their virtue. The originals were convinced they were cogs in the wheel of the universe, put in their position by Zeus or some Power, and what happened to them was part of a divine plan. That is muted or absent in much of what I've seen of the moderns. And if they throw that away, why be resigned with what just happens to you by chance?

Dan Harris is a good interviewer and comes at his guests with curiosity. There could be some good stuff in there, but, shall we say, approach the Stoa with caution.

Quote from Cassius

Look at this for example: In the final sentence the latin is jocunde - of which "agreeable" is one translation, but of the options listed at Perseus "agreeably' is probably the least appropriate. Since we are talking clearly about pleasure in this passage, why not use the more applicable "PLEASANTLY" or "DELIGHTFULLY" or "PLEASINGINGLY"-?

Why not? Because "pleasure" and its derivatives are dirty, four-letter words. It's a carry over from a stuffy, puritanical past.

This full text also, in my opinion, bolsters my contention that when Epicurus uses "the good" in various places in the Letter to Menoikeus that he means pleasure and not some abstract philosophical concept. When we recall the good when we're old it's not "philosophical teachings" like some translators state. It's remembering pleasurable events in the past. Plain and simple.

Great episode! Finally had a chance to listen while driving to/from work.

I posted this before listening to Joshua 's "dramatic reading." The word that came unbidden to my mind was mellifluous. I decided to look up that word since it usually doesn't come up in casual conversation. I found the following derivation: "late 15th century: from late Latin mellifluus (from mel ‘honey’ + fluere ‘to flow’) + -ous." So, Joshua 's rendition literally provides the honey to the cup of wormwood.

Quote from Philia

.and so it would seem that the mind must be tenderly cared for so that pleasure and joy can flower

A lovely way to phrase it!

For me, pleasure encompasses a wide spectrum:

• Walking in the woods and admiring the sun shining through the leaves.
• Looking up at the sky, eyes closed, and feeling the warmth of the sun on my face.
• Partaking in lively conversation.
• Finding an old book on the shelves at the library and feeling the imprint of the printing plates on the page.
• Losing myself in reading or working on a translation.

Pleasure can be big and all-encompassing, or small and intimate, shared or solitary.

Those are my initial thoughts.

Thanks for starting this thread, Kalosyni !

I've thought a good title for an Epicurean podcast or other forum/format would be:

"Pleasure is not a Four-Letter Word"

Here's a possible draft comment... Unless I decide to live unknown

I just came across this program on Instagram (I know! Social media does good!? Shocking!) and look forward to the podcast. The thing that struck me as I watched the video was how Epicurean (capital E) it sounded. The discussion of enjoyment as pleasure. The discussion of listening to your feelings. The importance of connection and friendship. The discussion of living through pain but not seeking it out. All these are Epicurean themes. It seems to me that the the podcast could be called "How to Build Eudaimonia" to use the ancient Greek word often translated as "happiness" but having connotations of so much more: fulfillment, satisfaction, well-being, etc. Epicurus's philosophy is often characterized (erroneously from my perspective) as asceticism but he really talked about living a fully human life: using one's feelings of pleasure and pain to make conscious choices of what to pursue and what to reject; the paramount importance of friendship in leading a pleasurable life; experiencing pain in the moment to experience something pleasurable in the long-run (my go-to example is exercise but it could go much deeper). I found myself nodding my head in agreement from an Epicurean perspective with almost everything you both talked about. Well done presentation, lots to dig into, and excited to see where your take the podcast.

(Revised text. Comments welcomed)

I am struck by how Epicurean this sounds! I'm thinking this is more " How to Build Eudaimonia." But the part where they talk about listening to your feelings seems to me spot on! The discussion of experiencing pain but not seeking it out. The importance of friendship. It'll be interesting where this goes, but this first episode strikes a very Epicurean tone. Part of me thinks it could go off the rails, but enjoy this one. I'm really tempted to post a comment since there's only 4 right this minute to not this.

Yeah, he definitely seems to be a member of the modern Stoic movement:

http://www.johnsellars.org.uk/popular-writing.html

Okay, if we go back to 2003...

Materialism and Ethics (2003)

From The Philosopher, Volume LXXXXI No. 2 Autumn 2003 MATERIALISM AND ETHICS: Learning from Epicurus  By John Sellars A s...

www.the-philosopher.co.uk

I did a quick search of Sellars at Academia.edu and didn't see anything specifically on Epicureanism. Lots of articles, papers, book chapters on the minutiae of Stoicism, Aristotle, Hadot, Marcus Aurelius, and Hellenistic philosophy in general with a smattering of Epicurus and Lucretius.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36&q=john+sellars&btnG=

There is a general Google Scholar search.

So his major Research interest lies in Stoicism with a general interest in Hellenistic philosophy. I guess we'll see.

Thanks for the heads-up, Joshua !!!

I just found this article on Academia talking about the development of autarkeia in Greek antiquity:

Ancient debates on autarkeia and our global impasse

Probably the most glaring geo-political contradiction today consists between economic inequality on the one hand and the over-exploitation of the planet's…

www.academia.edu

ANCIENT DEBATES ON AUTARKEIA AND OUR GLOBAL IMPASSE

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention Epicurus, but it does lay out the development of the concept through Aristotle, Cynicism, Pericles, etc. It does appear to include both contentment and economics from an early stage of the formation of the idea. In any case, this seems to give a good summary of the ancient Greek mindset on this term.

I *may* go so far as to say autarkeia has, in part, the connotation of being content with one's economic situation if at least all your basic needs are met. Which is not to say one has to be satisfied with a mere subsistence existence!! There's nothing a priori "bad" about accumulating wealth (like the property manager talked about by Philodemus) but don't get caught up in making money for money's sake. The goal of wealth is still the living of a pleasurable life and being able to give to your friends if needed.

I *don't* think Epicurus advocated the complete removal from society and the establishment of autonomous communes away from the polis. The Garden was a community but not a commune. I don't endorse that connotation of autarkeia. Even "live unknown" had connections to society. How else would the wise establish a school but not draw a mob. How else would they give speeches if asked if they were off in the woods or cut off from society?

I'm also not convinced that the Garden was residential. I think some close affiliates like the "guides/teachers" lived with Epicurus or near the Garden, but I get the impression it was more a "commuter school" for the most part. But I'm still doing research on that.

NOTE: I'm not saying you're necessarily advocating the viewpoint I'm talking about in the last 2 paragraphs, Macario , but I think there's a strong strain of this out there. So, I figured I'd get my position on the record... or at least my position as of the writing of this post. As Cassius says, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks

Macario , thank you very much for those additional excerpts! That's very helpful.

Quote from Macario

In the end, it seems to me that the aspects of contentment with what one have and the idea of economic self-sufficiency are both connected to the concept of autarkeia in Epicurus

I am coming to the same conclusion.

I'm not sure I completely concur with your "equation" interpretations, but I believe I can see where you're coming from in those.

I do think that Epicurus taught that we it was necessary to have our basic existential needs taken care of - somewhat like the base of the pyramid of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - before we can live a pleasurable life, but I don't think he thought that was sufficient especially since he places such an emphasis on friendship.

I'll continue to cogitate on this and share any thoughts on this thread.

Thank you again for engaging!

Quote from Cassius

for the pseudo-Romans like Don and me

LOL.Bite your tongue, ο φίλος μου! I'm Team Barbarian all the way.

We discussed the spring/fountain of Jupiter Ammon with its hot and cold waters in this episode. We were all a little skeptical, but it turns out it was - and continues to be - an actual location.

It turns out that Herodotus mentions this location in his Histories (4.181.3-4):

Quote from Herodotus, The Histories

(2) The first on the journey from Thebes , ten days distant from there, are the Ammonians, who follow the worship of the Zeus of Thebes ; for, as I have said before, the image of Zeus at Thebes has the head of a ram. (3)They have another spring of water besides, which is warm at dawn, and colder at market-time, and very cold at noon; (4) and it is then that they water their gardens; as the day declines, the coldness abates, until at sunset the water grows warm. It becomes ever hotter and hotter until midnight, and then it boils and bubbles; after midnight it becomes ever cooler until dawn. This spring is called the Spring of the Sun.

Pliny the Elder also mentions this location in The Natural History (2.106):

Quote from Pliny the Elder, The Natural History

The pool of Jupiter Ammon, which is cold during the day, is warm during the night

The pool/fountain/spring is located in the Siwa Oasis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis which, in ancient times, was a temple to Ammon/Amun. Herodotus said it was a 10 day journey from Thebes (on the Nile) to Siwa in ancient times. Evidently, the "boiling" at midnight is an exaggeration. Although maybe the geothermal activity was more pronounced in ancient times?

The settlement was established in the 700s BCE

Herodotus c. 484 - c. 425 BCE

Lucretius c. 99 - c. 55 BCE

Pliny the Elder 23/24 - 79 CE

That's a span from the mid-400s BCE to 79 CE

And we're still talking about and visiting the Oasis in 2021!

I find it fascinating that this location has maintained its fame for over 2,700 years and *continues* to be a tourist attraction.. even without an Oracle to consult.

I also apologize, Macario , but I should have directly responded to the DeWitt quoted passages. I'll try to do that over the weekend. I did see that this line:

Quote from DeWitt

To Epicurus the simple life meant contentment with little and this was called self-sufficiency, which in turn meant freedom: “Of self-sufficiency the most precious fruit is freedom.”

seems to convey to me the idea of contentment in relation to αυτάρκεια.

Thank you again for engaging in this conversation. I know it's been valuable for me so far to get me to delve into this topic.

Quote from Cassius

Did you come to a conclusion there Don?

Nope. Not yet.

If we end up with a good discussion on autarkeia here, Cassius may want to move this part of the "Welcome Philia" thread to another spot. Just a suggestion.

Sorry, Macario , for the delay in responding to your posts above!

Quote from Macario

It seems to me that the term 'self-sufficiency' in Epicurean Philosophy, is strongly related to an economic meaning.

My soapbox here on the forum is always go back to the original texts, and don't trust any one translation of any word that was originally in Greek or Latin. I saw that Saint-Andre has this note on Vatican Saying 44:

Quote

VS44: When the sage contends with necessity, he is skilled at giving rather than taking — such a treasury of self-reliance has he found.

ὁ σοφὸς εἰς τὰ ἀναγκαῖα συγκριθεῖς μᾶλλον ἐπίσταται μεταδιδόναι ἢ μεταλαμβάνειν· τηλικοῦτον αὐταρκείας εὗρε θησαυρόν.
[44] The word αὐτάρκεια is often translated as "self-sufficiency", but I think "self-reliance" is slightly better because the Epicurean sage needs friends and therefore is not entirely self-sufficient.

So, right away, we have self-reliance and self-sufficiency as two options. I agree they may mean similar things, but it doesn't get us closer to whether it's economic, a sense of satisfaction, contentment with circumstances, or a combination or something else.

Thank you for the quote from DeWitt. As Cassius will no doubt confirm, I have certain problems with DeWitt's interpretation and lack of citations sometimes. I took a look at the section you referenced, especially because I was curious about the beans! Sure enough, the footnote for that is from Plutarch, Demetrius, Chapt. 24: "At this time also, we are told, the philosopher Epicurus sustained the lives of his associates with beans, which he counted out and distributed among them." In Greek, "associates" is συνήθης which seems more friendly than that word would imply, I'd like something like "ones with whom he was well-acquainted or intimate with one."

But, I realize, I digress. This doesn't get us closer to an understanding of what αὐτάρκεια conveyed to the ancient Greek mind. What I'm going to do is take a look at where that word shows up in Epicurus's extant work (to the best of my ablility)

We've seen VS44 above.

VS45. The study of what is natural produces not braggarts nor windbags nor those who show off the culture that most people fight about, but those who are fearless and self-reliant and who value their own good qualities rather than the good things that have come to them from external circumstances. οὐ κομποὺς οὐδὲ φωνῆς ἐργαστικοὺς οὐδὲ τὴν περιμάχητον παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς παιδείαν ἐνδεικνυμένους φυσιολογία παρασκευάζει, ἀλλὰ σοβαροὺς καὶ αὐτάρκεις καὶ ἐπὶ τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀγαθοῖς, οὐκ ἐπὶ τοῖς τῶν πραγμάτων μέγα φρονοῦντες.

VS77: The greatest fruit of self-reliance is freedom. τῆς αὐταρκείας καρπὸς μέγιστος ἐλευθερία.

Fragment 202. He who follows nature and not groundless opinions is completely self-reliant. With regard to what is enough by nature, everything he owns is a source of wealth; whereas with regard to unlimited desires, even the greatest wealth is poverty. ὁ οὖν τῇ φύσει παρακολουθῶν καὶ μὴ ταῖς κεναῖς δόξαις ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτάρκης· πρὸς γὰρ τὸ τῇ φύσει ἀρκοῦν πᾶσα κτῆσίς ἐστι πλοῦτος, πρὸς δὲ τὰς ἀορίστους ὀρέξεις καὶ ὁ μέγιστος πλοῦτός ἐστι πενία.

Fragment 476: 476. Self-reliance is the greatest wealth of all. πλουσιώτατον αὐτάρκεια πάντων.

And, please let me add, I'm not copying these here to be pedantic! I just want all those in one spot to make it easier for us to refer to them. That's all for now that I can find on the fly.

Fragment 202 especially, to me, gets at contentment with what one has and not necessarily being economically self-reliant/self-sufficient.

The definition in LSJ for αὐταρκεία is here and the definition gives links to:

Plato. Philebus, 67a.

Socrates

In this argument, then, both mind and pleasure were set aside; neither of them is the absolute good, since they are devoid of self-sufficiency, adequacy, and perfection?

Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, 1097b.

The same conclusion also appears to follow from a consideration of the self-sufficiency of happiness—for it is felt that the final good must be a thing sufficient in itself. The term self-sufficient, however, we employ with reference not to oneself alone, living a life of isolation, but also to one's parents and children and wife, and one's friends and fellow citizens in general, since man is by nature a social being....

Happiness, therefore, being found to be something final and self-sufficient, is the End at which all actions aim.

Aristotle, Rhetoric. 1.6.

To enumerate them one by one, the following things must necessarily be good. Happiness, since it is desirable in itself and self-sufficient, and to obtain it we choose a number of things.

Aristotle, Politics, 1.1256b.

This then virtually completes the list of the various modes of life, those at least that have their industry sprung from themselves and do not procure their food by barter and trade—the lives of the herdsman, the brigand, the fisherman, the hunter, the husband-man. Others also live pleasantly by combining some of these pursuits, supplementing the more deficient life where it happens to fall short in regard to being self-sufficing: for instance, some combine a pastoral life and brigandage, others husbandry and hunting, and similarly with the others—they pass their time in such a combination of pursuits as their need compels. Property of this sort then seems to be bestowed by nature herself upon all, as immediately upon their first coming into existence, so also when they have reached maturity.

The final selection from Aristotle definitely has an economic aspect; however, the excerpt from Plato has an aspect of contentment about it. So, it seems to have been a multi-purpose word. But I'll post this, and feel free to continue the discussion! I find this very pleasurable to engage in.

Quote from Cassius

So is there a separate video on consciousness as an emergent property?

I'm a fan of Kurzgesagt. This video talks about emergence which seems to me what Epicurus/Lucretius talked about as "accidents":