Posts by Don

LOL! Well, well, we've finally found something we disagree about.

How would you interpret "the most pleasant"?

Quote from Cassius

"And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant."

Exactly. I interpret that "the most pleasant" with the idea of pleasure *over a period of time.* The *length* of time is not the focus; it's the *persistence* of pleasure over the time in question.

Personally, I think you're onto something with the short- vs long-term pleasure. Cassius may disagree. I've interpreted the Cyrenaic position to be "always pleasure in the moment" grab it now. Whereas Epicurus's philosophy was to make choices that would provide sustainable pleasure and the prospect that it would persist.

I wouldn't take on that skeptic label just yet

Consider how this sounds when taken as a whole:

As soon as the pain produced by the lack of something is removed, pleasure in the flesh is not increased but only embellished. Yet the limit of enjoyment in the mind is produced by reasoning out these very things and similar things, which once provoked the greatest fears in the mind. Infinite time and finite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning. The flesh assumes that the limits of joy are infinite, and that infinite joy can be produced only through infinite time. But the mind, reasoning out the goal and limits of the flesh and dissolving fears about eternity, produces a complete way of life and therefore has no need of infinite time; yet the mind does not flee from joy, nor when events cause it to exit from life does it look back as if it has missed any aspect of the best life. One who perceives the limits of life knows how easy it is to expel the pain produced by a lack of something and to make one’s entire life complete; so that there is no need for the things that are achieved through struggle.

I've come around to thinking some of the PDs should simply be read together and not in isolation. The original text didn't split them up. It was one continuous text. My suggestion is to read 18-21 as one continuous text. It seems to provide a much better context.

I'm late to the game (mea culpa!), but here are my thoughts as a slight edit. Overall, I think you're definitely on the right track. Thanks for putting the list together!

1) Do not chase desires that can never be fully satisfied.*

1a) Enjoy the occasional luxury when it comes your way.

2) Flee** from bodily and mental pains unless greater pleasure may be the result.

3) Take pleasure in the study of philosophy which leads to tranquility and peace of mind.*** (with a nod to Godfrey )

4) Cultivate and enjoy friendships with like-minded people.

5) Savor the sweetness of life.

5a) Neither cause harm to yourself nor to others.

6) Realize that at a certain point enjoyment comes to it's totality, and any additional pleasure is like "icing on a cake". (I like the idea you're getting at here and it's an important one... just wondering about the wording. I actually like the "icing on the cake" metaphor.)

*1: I'm trying to get across the pursuit of limitless wealth or limitless power. Those cannot be filled and usually defined as "empty" in the original texts. But the way I've worded it could be misconstrued.

**2: I was going to say "avoid" but I don't like that, as in the conventional wording of "choice and avoidance". The original Greek has the connotation of "fleeing"... Choice and flight. Always struck me as much more active.

***3. The idea of tranquility and peace of mind still appeals to me. I find it easier to appreciate pleasures with a tranquil mind, and, from my readings of the text, Epicurus backs this up. I recognize that tranquility isn't the goal, pleasure is. But tranquility/peace of mind makes appreciating pleasure much easier from my perspective.

The wonder stuff: what I learned about happiness from a month of ‘awe walks’

Feeling down? You need to experience more awe, psychologists say. So I set off every day to explore my local area, leaving my phone behind

www.theguardian.com

I realize this is an old thread, but this opinion piece on Keltner's research was intriguing enough to share. This seemed an appropriate place to put it.

Thread

Munro Translation of Lucretius

I was just singing the praises of Munro in another thread while going through Munro's Introduction to Lucretius (contained in volume two of his three volume set).

I think Munro is generally very sympathetic to Epicurus and Lucretius and therefore someone to be consulted in any translation issues, but here's a clip that I have to disagree with:

epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/2220/



I am posting this mostly as a joke because I have been saying on the Lucretius podcast that I am looking forward…

Cassius

September 4, 2021 at 8:34 PM

This thread (start at Godfrey 's post near the top) talks about magnets possessing some life-force, anima, ψυχή, etc. Didn't remember to bring up during the podcast but an interesting thread nonetheless.

I'll beat Joshua to the punch and post:

Great Stink - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One can also go down the Wikipedia rabbit hole and link to the miasma theory of disease, the Crossness Pumping Station, etc., from that link.

While I admit the foul odors themselves maybe didn't lead to disease (other than maybe chronic watery eyes, asthma, etc), the ancients did have the idea that there was airborne transmission of disease.

That being said, imagining what it had to be like to live in London during the Great Sink makes me shudder. Thanks for bringing this historical event to our attention, Joshua !

Quote from Cassius

4. Develop courage through adversity, it makes us stronger.

Yeah, I'm not watching it either. That 4 sounds Stoic not Epicurean.

"Constituamus aliquem magnis, multis, perpetuis fruentem..."

I like Reid's.

"enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant"

Yonges is okay there, but I see other issues elsewhere: "enjoying pleasures great, numerous, and perpetual,"

I don't like Parker and Rackham's paraphrase there.

Reid? https://hdl.handle.net/2027/inu.32000000647208

This uses "agreeably" in XII.

Bah! I does appear to be the Parker translation. Mea culpa!

Tully's five books de finibus,

Have you seen this "Done into English by S.P. Gent"

Tully's five books de finibus

I must admit I like that Cicero is called Tully

Quote from Cassius

No matter how much the high-brows look down their noses and accuse the Epicureans of focusing on the "belly,"

Not that there's anything wrong with satisfying the belly!!

Well summarized, Kalosyni !

People seem to sometimes think that pleasure always has to be capital-P Pleasure. But the simple everyday pleasures can be powerful due in fact to their being readily at hand. We just have to remember to appreciate and notice them.

I had an experience today driving to work in traffic. Several cars ahead of me, another driver had his window down and I could see soap bubbles coming out his window and floating through traffic. It was so whimsical and unexpected, it made me smile for several blocks the whole way to the parking garage. It was a wonderful way to start the day!

Thank you for sharing your personal history and present situation with us. That can't be easy to do on a forum.

You question whether you might be an Epicurean, but Epicurus endorsed finding the way for one to lead a pleasurable life and having health of the body and serenity of the mind. It sounds like you are striving for that.

It also sounds like you have benefited from therapy in the past, so finding a new mental health professional may serve you well in your pursuit of a pleasant life. If you're interested, here is a page with some resources and additional contacts if you're searching for a new therapist: https://www.samhsa.gov/serious-mental-illness

All that being said, it does sound like you are doing your best to appreciate the pleasures available to you. That's important, and something many people don't take time to appreciate.

You may be right that government benefits would allow you a little more freedom, self-sufficiency, and security. Also, qualities of a pleasurable life. Hopefully, that will work out.

Don't take your treatment solely into your own hands. Epicurus taught the importance of a supportive community but also frank speech. Don't hesitate to seek out the professional care you think you need. Philosophy can be a powerful complement but not necessarily a replacement for modern medicine and therapies. Take good care of your body and your mind with the best methods available.

Quote from Patrick

Hi, I will probably be more of a lurker because I am not academically inclined, nor am I a philosopher

Welcome, Patrick! I, too, originally expected to be a lurker... Now, I've ended up on the podcast The forum participants are a welcoming bunch. Feel free to participate as actively as you are comfortable doing. And as far as being a "philosopher" I don't *think* anyone here is an academically-trained Philosopher. But by expressing an interest in studying or practicing wisdom, you've already taken a step to being a philosopher. Epicurus claimed to be self-taught, too.

Quote from Cassius

An "Epicurean Philosophy Night" at a local men's or women's club or children's club is probably more consistent with what I was thinking rather than something named and focused the other way around. Good catch.

Okay, I think we're on the same page. That whole "red pill" "Manosphere" is alarming, misogynistic stuff from what I can see. I don't usually express sympathy for Stoics but it is a shame if Greco-Roman literature/culture etc gets co-opted by that "community." I'll end there before going down a political path

Quote from Cassius

A truly effective "men's club" in the modern world would be an "Epicurean Men's Club" and I would have no more problem with that than I would with an "Epicurean Women's Club" or whatever other self-identified group thought it would be helpful to have a group devoted to their own unique circumstances of living -

Hmmm. My first response is to push back on your assertion there. Epicurus's Garden sets the paradigm for Epicurean communities in that they are/should welcome all. Having a sectarian (in any form) group goes against the ecumenical, open, welcoming nature of the original Gardens.