Posts by Don

I go back to babies, monkeys, chimps, etc al exhibiting displays of "fairness" (or however one describes it) as being manifestations of an innate sense or prolepseis of "justice." I don't think they can be acculturation in relation to babies. The utility of "fairness" might be learned, but the sense of fairness is innate.

We crossposted, Cassius . I do think you're on the right track on the pre-rational, sensory, pre-conceptual nature of the prolepseis. Not sure how I square that with divinity and justice being our two examples, but I agree that's the track to follow.

But there is an underlying "no harm to me, no harm to you" reciprocity at work, especially in the chimp and monkey examples. If you look at the definitions of δίκαιος, there's a maintaining a certain balance in society aspect. One chimp sees a group member being "harmed" by being denied food etc. Another member shares, maintaining balance in society. The sharing member also sets up the precedent for reciprocity from the other member in the troop.

The idea of the "just" war is defensible(?) possibly in that one community didn't have any agreements with the other. Or if they did, one side sees the other as doing something against the contract and they are inflicting punishment on the offending party.

That's a take off the top of my head.

Is the prolepsis (notion, anticipation, preconception, etc) of justice simply the concept that one neither harms nor inflicts harm? That that is where the definition of what is starts?

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δίκαιος

From http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…057:entry=di/kh

Quote from Kalosyni

a small cup of light wine

Thanks for that!

I find it interesting that that phrase above is the word οινιδιον oinidion which is just a diminutive of "wine" οίνος oinos. Plus it appears to only show up in a couple places with some inscriptions and that one mention in DL book X being most of them.

PS. Diminutives: "Ancient Greek suffixes that are derived from a base word to convey endearment, small size or small intensity." (Wiktionary)

So, with so few attested usages of οινιδιον, it's hard to say what is actually being conveyed. I've seen some articles that say diminutives were sometimes just alternative forms of the word, οινιδιον just could have meant "wine." I've also seen some translators use "inferior wine" but I see no reason why Epicureans would choose inferior wine. Some possibilities from the Wiktionary definition to me could be:

• endearment: precious or favorite wine. They had a particularly favorite vintage or supplier.
• small size: They drank small cups, but that doesn't seem noteworthy. It also doesn't address the beverage. You'd think there would be a mention of the cup but it's not; it's the beverage (juxtaposed with water)
• small intensity: This one makes the most sense to me. The wine typically drunk in the Garden was less potent, maybe not fermented as long, maybe with more water added (as was common) especially since water is also mentioned next. So maybe the passage is getting at the idea that some added a "little wine" to their water and others just stuck with the plain spring water or rain water.

The mixing of wine and water goes back way into the history of Ancient Greece, mentioned even in the Odyssey (1.110):

[110] some were mixing wine and water for them in bowls, others again were washing the tables with porous sponges and setting them forth, while still others were portioning out meats in abundance.

What Telemachus greets Athena with soon after that excerpt strikes me as almost a version of the greeting posted at the entrance to the Garden:

“Hail, stranger; in our house thou shalt find entertainment and then, when thou hast tasted food, thou shalt tell of what thou hast need.”

Homer, Odyssey, Book 1, line 80

It might be good to refresh a look at the word for "justice" δίκαιος

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δίκαιος

Thought these might be helpful for the discussion:

Fr. 548. Happiness and bliss are produced not by great riches nor vast possessions nor exalted occupations nor positions of power, but rather by peace of mind, freedom from pain, and a disposition of the soul that sets its limits in accordance with nature.

τὸ εὔδαιμον καὶ μακάριον [eudaimonia and blessedness] οὐ χρημάτων πλῆθος οὐδὲ πραγμάτων ὄγκος οὐδʼ ἀρχαί τινες ἔχουσιν οὐδὲ δυνάμεις, ἀλλʼ ἀλυπία καὶ πραότης παθῶν καὶ διάθεσις ψυχῆς τὸ κατὰ φύσιν ὁρίζουσα.

χρημάτων πλῆθος = a huge amount of money or wealth

χρημάτων = things one needs or uses; property, esp. money

πραγμάτων ὄγκος = lit. heap of things

ἀρχαί τινες ἔχουσιν = having authority

ἀλυπία = "freedom from pain"

πραότης παθῶν = "peace of mind" lit. mild, gentle feelings/reactions http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=pra=os

43. It is not right to love money unjustly, and shameful to love it justly; for it is unbecoming to be overly stingy, beyond what is right. φιλαργυρεῖν ἄδικα μὲν ἀσεβές, δίκαια δὲ αἰσχρόν· ἀπρεπὲς γὰρ ῥυπαρῶς καὶ μετὰ τοῦ δικαίου.

This is interesting with the μὲν...δὲ... which can be typically translated as "on the one hand... On the other hand..." plus γὰρ then "since, because" giving the reason for what came before.

φιλαργυρεῖν is literally does mean "to love money" philargyrein philo- love argyros "silver, money"

There are various permutations of just/unjust:

ἄδικα

δίκαια

δικαίου

ἀσεβές is the opposite word used in the title of Philodemus's "On Piety" and means ungodly, unholy, profane, sacrilegious, opp. εὐσεβής (used in the title.

αἰσχρόν is an antonym of καλός kalos "noble, upright, beautiful, etc..." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…entry=ai)sxro/s

ἀπρεπὲς is "unseemly, unbecoming, indecent, indecorous; of persons, disreputable." With the α- "un-" prefix, think of those definitions without it to get antonyms. πρέπει is something like "fitting"

ῥυπαρῶς is an adverb. Filthily, dirty-ly, sordidly, but it sets up clever word play by Epicurus because it can also refer to coins made of base metals or alloys instead of pure silver so with a nod to meaning counterfeit maybe or not pure precious metals http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…entry=r(uparo/s

φείδεσθαι to be thrifty, to use sparingly. I get the idea of being frugal or spending money wisely.

καὶ μετὰ τοῦ δικαίου.

"beyond what is right" could just as easily be "beyond what is just (δικαίου)"

The latest episode of Lucretius Today (or use it "Torquatus" Today now ) talked about this, from my perspective, with the discussion of the "love of money" for its own sake. If the acquisition of money is just to acquire more money (ie, you're not making money to work toward some achievable goal), there's no limit to that desire. You can never be satisfied with how much money you have.

But humans' desires can be insatiable especially for power and money.

The Next Big Idea - DOPAMINE NATION: Why the Modern World Puts Us All at Risk for Addiction

In “Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence,” Dr. Anna Lembke says today’s superabundance of pleasurable stimuli makes us all vulnerable to…

podcasts.google.com

Podcast episode from The Next Big Idea directly pertinent to discussions on this forum.

I'm more and more coming to the idea that homeostasis or "the hedonic set-point" *is* ataraxia and aponia, and that was one of Epicurus's innovations to see that homeostasis is a kind of pleasure and not just some neutral state between pleasure and pain.

Listen and share your thoughts.

Quote from Kalosyni

Now most people in modern times know how to hold their public drinking in check, since it's both unsafe and against the law to drive drunk.

Many people can exercise wisdom and personal responsibility*; unfortunately, it's still a problem:

Alcohol Facts and Statistics | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)

In 2019, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 10,142 deaths (28.0 percent of overall driving fatalities).

*PS: In rereading that, I realize that comes off as too harsh in relation to those suffering from alcoholism. That was not intended. Mea culpa. However, not all alcohol overindulgence is due to alcoholism and some is due to just poor choices.

PPS: Just posted link to new podcast episode from The Next Big Idea on this very topic.

The qualities of the sweet life in the PDs and the letter to Menoikeus are:

φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως

wisely

nobly

justly

If someone sees temperance, let me know.

I think this also dovetails with what I *think* Kalosyni was saying about wisdom and making wise decisions. The ability to make wise choices is basically part of self-control which is potentially more helpful than being "moderate."...?

I don't find "temperance" in Epicurus's writings. Is it mentioned anywhere other than by "Torquatus"?

Quote from Cassius

What is pecan pie "porter"? I know what pecan pie is, but "porter?"

Porter is a dark style of beer, similar to a stout.

I did want to add that I concur with the thoughts above that I think the idea of some kind of supernatural power probably would be rediscovered or never go away. That concept along with an afterlife seems to go back well into the prehistoric origins of humans. But the specific manifestations of Shiva, Odin, Yahweh, Zeus, Ahura-Mazda, etc. are unlikely to be rediscovered as well as the rites texts associated with them.

I see your post as more Epicurean than Utilitarian. Your post is more concerned with its effect on the individual. My rudimentary understanding of Utilitarianismis that their hedonic calculus actually counts up numbers of dolors and hedons and worries a lot about the "needs of the many." That always seemed too abstract. Yours seems very grounded in the real world.

Plus those beers look intriguing. I'm not sure if that was your own photo, but now I want to hunt them down.

Eloquently stated, Joshua !!

One thing that strikes me as I read your writing was that, like science, if the philosophy of Epicurus is ever truly lost, there's a chance someone in the future would recreate - or rediscover - it on their own under a different name.

Being based on natural principals and having a foundation in a material world, one could, if necessary, "discover" that the world is built of "little seeds", that the "soul" dies with the body, that if there are "gods" (of that concept arises) that they don't bother us, the rational pursuit of pleasure is a worthy goal, and so on.

I find it very difficult to believe that the same could be said for Christian substitution theology or even virtue-based Stoicsm. Maybe some kind of "Buddhist" "science of mind" involving meditation because the mind is always there to study and engage in introspection.

But I've heard this argument from scientists and agnostics/atheists: that science is "rediscoverable" and religion is not. Some new form of theology would emerge to control the masses and to strike fear into them. But scientific principles are manifest in the universe: E=mc², the Earth goes around the sun, etc. I would include living beings are attracted to pleasure and avoid pain in there which underpins the philosophy we know as Epicurus's but in the future could be "resurrected" by someone else independent of knowledge of the Garden. That doesn't mean we don't respect or honor Epicurus now since the philosophy does spring from him and we know it now. I think I take comfort in this rediscoverability, but I'm curious if anyone agrees or has any thoughts iin this direction.

Quote from Cassius

I am guess it is is book five and it ought to jump out at me which book, and which section, because that is a very frequently referenced statement. We'll find it!

LOL! You don't have the entire DRN memorized by book and line? Oh, for shame !

Quote from Kalosyni

This year I am going to fullful my wish of making a gingerbread house, all from scratch, so it will be good and tasty enough to eat on Christmas day.

Post a picture!