Posts by Don

I am looking forward to reading your work!

"Happy Thanksgiving" (Kala eukharistia!)

In the US today, we celebrate the Thanksgiving holiday. Canada celebrated their Thanksgiving holiday last month, so a belated Kαλά εὐχαριστία! to any Canadians stopping by here.

I think of Thanksgiving as the most Epicurean of the established holidays with its emphasis on:

• gratitude
• the gathering together of friends and family
• the enjoyment of food and drink on a special occasion

So, think on these things this holiday and be grateful for this life in which we get to experience all these in addition to having the opportunity to study and practice the philosophy of the Garden.

Carpe diem! Pluck the ripe fruit of the day!

I get this when I click your link:

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Quote from Cassius

there is no supernatural automatic enforcement mechanism like the religious majority believes to be the case.

Oh, definitely. Agreed. You're not "going to Hell" if you're "immoral" or "unethical."

Interestingly, Epicurus doesn't seem to refer to ethics and morals but just and unjust actions. I did a quick search for ηθικός (ēthikos - same word for ethics/morals) in Diogenes Laërtius's Book X on Epicurus and the only instances are where someone is talking about Epicurus, not from his own writing. Even the translation is misleading. Epicurus's Περί Τέλος (Peri Telos) is translated in the Perseus Digital Library as "On the Ethical End" but ethical is chosen by the translator. Telos is goal, fulfillment, etc. That modifier ethical doesn't occur in the Greek. And, as I understand, ηθικός is simply the "right" way to live, to conduct one's life. So, I'm sure the word shows up in Epicurus's writings, but it seems to me that he was much more concerned with just and unjust rather than what we would characterize as moral/immoral or ethical/unethical.

Quote from Cassius

In the end much of the pain that can be expected to come from hurting other people depends on the circumstance that we can expect that others will punish us for that action, and if we have reason to expect that we will not be punished, that motivation will not exist.

I would also add that, in a society or community, even if the person harming other people is sociopathic and feels no remorse or anxiety, we - as members of society- have put in structures and "contracts" to deal with "injustice" to keep ourselves safe.

Quote from Cassius

Good news - the great majority of editing of today''s edition is complete, and we should have the complete episode posted by tomorrow night at the latest.

Wow! That is some fast turn around! Nicely done!

You know I'm going to take you up on that

Well then, if they are Epicureans that live pleasantly, none are more truly Epicureans, than those that live holily and religiously. And if we are taken with Names, no Body more deserves the Name of an Epicurean, than that adorable Prince of Christian Philosophers ; for επίκουρος in Greek signifies as much as an Helper (p. 342)

The colloquies of Erasmus : Erasmus, Desiderius, d. 1536 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

archive.org

Spoiler alert: Joshua , I'm trying to track down your reference to "The only good Epicurean is a Christian" (to paraphrase). Just for listeners, we did not endorse this perspective... Just sayin'.

Quote from JJElbert

I would agree that ataraxia is not equal to pleasure, and I would formulate it like this; pleasure is a class of experiences (feelings?), and "peace of mind" is a species within that class.

I like that characterization!

I think we're also going up against the part of the Canon which are the "feelings" of pleasure vs pain, and the ways we experience pleasurable feelings like (ataraxia) tranquility; (euphrosyne) joy, pleasant sights, smells, etc; and eating a sandwich.

These two are intimately connected, but there not identical I don't think.

PD18, PD19, and PD20 are a prime example of PDs that should be read as one passage in my opinion. Those breaks are not in the original text, but I wish I could find when they first show up. They certainly aren't in the Arundel MS 531 manuscript at the British Library (from 1450-1500). Just scroll to the final pages, Book 10 is at the end. Even if you don't read Greek, you'll see there's no list. Just paragraphs of text.

This Latin translation from before 1439 also has no breaks in the PDs (for those who read Latin).

Quote from Cassius

What I plainly read in their material is that they are equating the particular experience of "calmness" or "tranquility to be the apex of human life and the goal of every human being. And to that I say "hogwash."

I would concur with that. I would just add that having a sense of tranquility allows one to be more open to pleasure and to be better able to make decisions on what desires to choose and which to flee from. But it's not the goal or apex.

Quote from Cassius

That is not the way the gods are described as spending their time,

How are the gods described as spending their time? I was digging around but couldn't find what I was looking for. Is that in Cicero's writings?

Quote from Torquatus - Cicero

Let us imagine an individual in the enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily, with no pain to thwart or threaten them;

I'll split hairs here. I would say ataraxia and aponia are two of the "pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily." The "with no pain to thwart or threaten them" is simply a description of the condition of that life. Don't equate the "no pain" with those two pleasures. When there is no trouble or pain, we feel the positive pleasurable experience of ataraxia and aponia.

Quote from Cassius

I would say that ataraxia is a way of experiencing some (any) other mental or bodily pleasure (without disturbance). I am still firmly maintaining that "absence of something" is not something that is a positive feeling or experience. It is something we can define as desirable, like absence of roaches in your house, but when you are experiencing absence of roaches as a good thing you are really experiencing your house in a way you like to experience it - without roaches.

I'm going to push back on your analogy here. I see this "ataraxia is the lack of something" a lot in both statements favorable to this forum's interpretation and antagonistic to it. It seems people get hung up on the a- "not" prefix. Ataraxia being translated as "lack/absence of x" where x is trouble, anxiety, or something else negative misses the boat. Yes, it is technically an "absence" of trouble in the mind but it describes a positive feeling. Epicurus included it in his list of pleasures, so it is a feeling of pleasure. We feel something positive. A better translation may be calmness, tranquility, peace of mind to get away from that un- or a- prefix. The metaphor used sometimes is a calm sea. It is a positive quality.

So, to go back to your post:

It's not "a way of experiencing some (any) other mental or bodily pleasure (without disturbance)." Ataraxia is itself a pleasureable experience of calmness and tranquility in the mind, just as aponia (another pleasure singled out by Epicurus) is a pleasurable feeling of being well-rested, not fatigued or feeling any bodily pains. I imagine soaking - luxuriating - in a hot bath. Translating ataraxia and aponia simply as a "lack" or "absence" of something does a disservice to the positive qualities inherent in those stable states of mind and body.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Martin

Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure

This is good. This sheds light on things.

And so then:

Just as virtue is in the service of pleasure, so too peace of mind is in the service of pleasure.

I'm not sure I'm fully on board with the characterization that "peace of mind... is not equal to pleasure." By "peace of mind" can I surmise we're talking about ataraxia? Which is, by Epicurus's definition, pleasurable.

If I indulge further in this, I'd revise Kalosyni 's statement, too, into:

"Just as virtue is in the service off pleasure, so too ataraxia is part of a pleasureable life."

Quote from Godfrey

Aka "Hand Experiencing Katastematic Pleasure".

I was thinking more "Snatch the Pebble from my Hand, Grasshopper" (Those of a certain age will get that reference )

One grammatical note:

ζῆν is the present active infinitive of ζάω "to live", so I like translating it as a verbal form (living) rather than a noun (life), making it more active.

LOL! I was literally working on that section of my Annotated Letter to Menoikeus when I took a break and brought up the forum. Here's my literal translation:

οὐθὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ ζῆν δεινὸν τῷ κατειληφότι γνησίως τὸ μηθὲν ὑπάρχειν ἐν τῷ μὴ ζῆν δεινόν.

"For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living."

Language Trivia: Terrible is the translation of Greek δεινὸν which is the source for dinosaur "terrible lizard."

Quote from Cleveland Okie

the recommendation in mind for the book about Alexandria.

I'd also add this recommendation:

The Darkening Age - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Godfrey

I believe that DL mentions that Epicurus was an admirer of Pyrrho.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IX, Chapter 11. PYRRHO (c. 360-270 b.c.)

In debate he was looked down upon by no one, for he could both discourse at length and also sustain a cross-examination, so that even Nausiphanes when a young man was captivated by him : at all events he used to say that we should follow Pyrrho in disposition but himself in doctrine ; and he would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho ; and that he was so respected by his native city that they made him high priest, and on his account they voted that all philosophers should be exempt from taxation.

Pyrrho (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Pyrrho’s Influence

Pyrrho’s relation to the later Pyrrhonists has already been discussed. Given the importance of Pyrrhonism in earlier modern philosophy, Pyrrho’s indirect influence may be thought of as very considerable. But beyond his being adopted as a figurehead in later Pyrrhonism—itself never a widespread philosophical movement — Pyrrho seems to have had very little impact in the ancient world after his own lifetime. Both Cicero and Seneca refer to Pyrrho as a neglected figure without a following, and the surviving testimonia do not contradict this impression. It is possible that he had some influence on the form of scepticism adopted by Arcesilaus and other members of the Academy; the extent to which this is so is disputed and difficult to assess. It is also possible that the Epicureans, whose aim was also ataraxia, learned something from Pyrrho; there are indications of an association between Pyrrho and Nausiphanes, the teacher of Epicurus. But if so, the extent of the Epicureans’ borrowing was strictly limited. For them, ataraxia is to be attained by coming to understand that the universe consists of atoms and void; and the Epicureans’ attitude towards the senses was anything but one of mistrust.

Quote from Godfrey

my understanding is that "meditation" for the ancient Greeks was actually more of a thought process, for example memorizing doctrines or visualizing the extent of the universe

I think you're right.

I'd also suggest we dig into the practice Philodemus talks about as "setting before the eyes" which strikes me as a vivid visualization. I've seen him use it in reference to anger and, as I understand, you "set before your eyes" what you look like when you are angry and have lost all reason and composure. Really investigate if that's what you want. Do you like the look of yourself that way?