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There is a fundamental difference between painlessness due to maximizing the enjoyment of a natural life versus sedation due to an emotional withdrawal from the challenges of a natural existence. The "bliss machine" is a form of sedation
I like your phrasing there.
. I asked her if a person who believe that they are in a happy marriage but in fact are being cheated on is happy or not, and she agreed that such a person would in fact be happy
The wife in that scenario can only work with the evidence she has at hand. If the evidence to which she has access to gives her the impression she is in a happy marriage, that's not really an argument for or against the machine from my perspective.
if we accept that parameters of the thought experiment as given, that using the machine
The parameters don't seem so cut and dried. Here is Nozick's excerpt: https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil3160/Nozick1.pdf
I haven't had a chance to read the paper yet but am putting it here for reference.
hedonism.... is HEDONISM????
Tautologies are rarely a discussion-ending slam dunk. I have no doubt the Cyrenaics would jump at the chance to plug in. I'm still not convinced the Epicureans would. And they're both classified as hedonistic schools.
They use the headsets because they like it and that is all the justification needed.
But it's not an all or nothing proposition with VR although it could easily lead to addictive behaviors like anything else. Using something that gives a pleasurable experience for a time, I got no problem with. There are numerous substances and experiences that provide pleasure from time to time.
If you're getting this impression from DeWitt, I'll be the first to admit I have problems with DeWitt. You'll notice some of my reviews of specific chapters of Epicurus and His Philosophers in this section. I have major issues with his Ranks and Titles section in chapter 5. I do not necessarily subscribe to a DeWittean interpretation in all things Epicurean.
That being said, I'd like to address a could specifics in your post/question.
Epicurean society was a bit separated from the rest of the world- own classes, an own garden, own hierarchical structures
There was a school, but I wouldn't call it a society. Epicurus regularly participated in the life of his city, especially in the religious festivals and rites. This comes through loud and clear in Philodemus's On Piety.
The Garden was also not a commune or compound. Students were free to come and go and attend classes and celebratory meals. Property was not held in common. This is explicitly stated in Diogenes Laërtius's writing.
Plus the Garden wasn't secluded or remote. It was right near one of the main gates of Athens on a highly traveled road. It just so happened that Epicurus could afford a place for his school to meet. A refuge from the city life for a time.
All the schools held "classes" and lectures. Most of not all of Aristotle's existing works were compiled by a student from lecture notes they took. I don't think we have extant.
All the schools had leaders and teachers.
All the schools thought they taught the truth.
One of the things that attracted me to explore this philosophy in the first place was because it was the *only* ancient school to welcome every member of society including women and slaves. There are women who were respected members of the school and who wrote philosophical texts (none of which survive - big surprise) arguing against the leading teachers of other schools.
That's all for now, but I appreciate your starting this thread!
@smoothiekiwi , there's also this thread Would An Epicurean Hook Himself Up To An "Experience Machine" or a "Pleasure Machine" If Possible?
specifically on the experience machine hypothetical.
Is this it?
67. I do not think I could conceive of the good without the joys of taste, of sex, of hearing, and without the pleasing motions caused by the sight of bodies and forms.
οὐδὲ γὰρ ἔγωγε ἔχω τί νοήσω τἀγαθὸν ἀφαιρῶν μὲν τὰς διὰ χυλῶν ἡδονάς, ἀφαιρῶν δὲ τὰς διʼ ἀφροδισίων, ἀφαιρῶν δὲ τὰς διʼ ἀκροαμάτῶν, ἀφαιρῶν δὲ καὶ τὰς διὰ μορφῆς κατʼ ὄψιν [those by way of shapes and along with vision] ἡδείας κινήσεις [of pleasing motions].
LII. Friendship goes dancing round the world proclaiming to us all to awake to the praises of a happy life.
Have you looked into the connection with "Apollo Epicurius", that is, Apollo the Helper?
And Apollo's epithet of Epicurius is the same word used in Epicurus's name:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐπίκουρ-ος
"helper, ally, protector, patron"
I don't know of any other gods with that specific epithet, so arguably Neocles and Chaerestrate could have been thinking of Apollo Epicurius when they named their son. Maybe Gamelion 7 is always a feast day of Apollo and, if Epicurus was born on that day, naming your son after the god dedicated to that day couldn't hurt. "Hey, we named him after you. Watch over him!"
Here's also an old post of mine that bring out the connection of Apollo with the 20th:
I've heard of some Unitarian churches holding Epicurean events or having Epicurean study groups. I can't remember where online I saw that, but I remember being pleasantly surprised.
Thanks for the reminder! I had forgotten about that!
One of Cassius 's favorite Vatican Sayings (attributed to Metrodorus):
VS47 : I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And we will not give ourselves up as captives to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who here vainly cling to it, we will leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that we have lived well.
I was intrigued by the word translated as "triumph-song." The word (according to Bailey) is παιωνος (paiōnos), an Ionic form of the word παιάν (paian > English "paean"):
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, π , πάγ-χαλκος , Παιάν
As the LSJ says, the song had its origin in a hymn to Apollo, the healer of the gods. This has direct relevance to this birthday of Epicurus. DeWitt had said that one of Epicurus's favorite "expletives" was "Paian Anax!" which refers to Apollo as Lord and Healer. (Think of saying something like "Good Lord!" when you're surprised by something or excited.) Epicurus is also a physician in his providing a practical philosophy for the "health of the body and tranquility of the mind." There are also associations with Apollo with picking the 20th as the date of the Epicurean monthly celebrations. And, finally, this 7th of Gamelion (1/10/22) is, according to that calendar link, a feast day of Apollo!
This connection of Apollo with the Epicureans intrigues me and may warrant further research. But that's for later. For now, here are some quick connections between Aphrodite ("patron goddess" of the Epicureans) and Apollo...
Aphrodite and Apollo
https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ApollonLoves.html
ADONIS A prince of the island Kypros (eastern Mediterranean) who was loved by the god Apollon. Adonis was described as androgynous, acting like a man in his affections for Aphrodite, and like a woman with Apollon.
Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 16 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Aphrodite, furious with Kleio . . . caused her to fall in love with Magnes' son Pieros. As a result of their union she bore him a son Hyakinthos. Thamyris, son of Philammon and the Nymphe Argiope, the first male to love other males, fell in love with Hyakinthos. Later on Apollon, who also loved him, accidentally killed him with a discus."
I laugh when I think I had originally thought when I was involved in the Cicero portion of the podcast that that Torquatus material could be all covered in six weeks. LOL! You all are doing a great job really digging into this work! As always thank you for this and keep up the good work!
That is fascinating. These do echo Diogenes Laertius's later list of the sage's characteristics. I didn't read On Ends closely enough to pick this up! I took the liberty to put this into an actual outline. You're right. It was easy.
For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy:
It's important to remember that parrhesia (frank speech) wasn't just used with philosophical adversaries or people the Epicureans disagreed with. According to Philodemus's work, it was a tool of instruction within the Epicurean community. If someone wasn't living up to their potential in putting the philosophy into practice in their life, the teachers would engage in frank speech to correct the student.
I keep meaning to read Voula Tsouna's The Ethics of Philodemus cover to cover which includes a section on this (and to try and get ahold of Philodemus's On Frank Speech). I've mostly used Tsouna's book to harvest citations and excerpts from Philodemus.
I can hear Don thinking "this guy is the reincarnation of Norman deWitt!" Kind of an inside joke but can't resist making it
I can take a hint 
I agree with
@smoothiekiwi that and think Christianity did - let's just go ahead and say it - stole and perverted some practices from the Epicureans. I just think DeWitt sees Epicureans hiding around EVERY Christian corner with the barest (or even absence) of evidence and in the process he dilutes his premise to the point of absurdity.
Too harsh?
No less an authority than Wikipedia gives one citation:
Caesar made numerous attempts to negotiate, at one point even conceding to give up all but one of his provinces and legions, allowing him to retain his immunity while diminishing his authority. This concession satisfied Pompey, but Cato, along with the consul Lentulus, refused to back down. Faced with the alternatives of returning to Rome for the inevitable trial and retiring into voluntary exile, Caesar crossed into Italy with only one legion, implicitly declaring war on the senate. Plutarch, Pompey , 59.4
IF IN FACT A BLISS DRUG WORKED THEN AN EPICUREAN WOULD CHOOSE IT!
Ad nauseum, I come to the exact OPPOSITE conclusion (in capital letters, too ). If you wanna reopen this can, I'll be happy to engage in a separate thread.
Honestly a shame that this practice was lost to time, I would love to visit such a garden with a smiling Epicurean and a lot of good friends in it!
It wasn't "lost." We know what happened to it. We have the "Triumph" of Christianity to "thank" for it. 
I recommend Nixey's book The Darkening Age for that story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age?wprov=sfla1
According to the best attempt at an ancient Greek calendar to fit modern times that I've been able to find online, Epicurus's birthday of the 7th day in the month of Gamelion will fall this year on Monday, January 10.
So, this coming Monday, take a moment to remember the "master-builder of happiness" as Lucretius called him and dedicate yourself to the pursuit of pleasure in your life.
"For our philosopher has abundance of witnesses to attest his unsurpassed goodwill to all men--his native land, which honoured him with statues in bronze ; his friends, so many in number that they could hardly be counted by whole cities, and indeed all who knew him, held fast as they were by the siren-charms of his doctrine..."
Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK X, EPICURUS (341-271 B.C.)
So, the school of Epicurus was widespread and long-lived throughout the ancient world. In many ways, it could be called "evangelical" in the literal sense of "spreading the good news." However, I get the impression that there were NOT Epicurean" missionaries but rather it spread from individual to individual. Then, if a particularly wealthy Epicurean in a particular city was able to open their house or garden to others, that would start a Garden (κήπος kēpos) in that city to serve as a school and meeting place.
her final two paragraphs
You do realize there's more article below those paragraphs, right?
