Honestly, I'm still in the Sedley idealist camp since, to my mind, the only way something could be ἄφθαρτον is if it is a mental construction, something in our imagination to who we stream images of a being who is experiencing an eternally pleasurable state of being. I admit I need to read more and meditate on these things, because Epicurus placed a great deal of importance on this.
Posts by Don
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ceaselessly satisfied being
This makes much more sense than inmortal being. Could this be a mis interpretation of the greek word too? What was it?
Epicurus: τὸν θεὸν ζῷον ἄφθαρτον καὶ μακάριον
A god is a ἄφθαρτον and μακάριον being (or image depending how you interpret
ζῷον)
ἄφθαρτον = incorruptible, undying, eternal, uncorruptedμακάριον = blessed, completely happy, etc
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my 80-page exploration of the letter to Menoikeus
is this available somewhere?
In the final editing... Stay tuned
PS I should say "final" editing... I'll remain a work in progress.
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All good points! Thanks (and sorry to be the wet blanket)
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Last minute shopping... Had to share attached photo
*This* is what people remember? -
One thing I'd like to share is that, according to Philodemus's On Piety, Epicurus enthusiastically took part in the festivals and rites of Athens. He may have had his own internal interpretation of them, but he didn't shy away from celebrating them.
I think that's a valuable lesson. We can take part wholeheartedly in traditional - even religious - celebrations of the season as long as we remember to leave the supernatural trappings behind - even if it's just by keeping it to ourselves.
If you enjoy carols or even the pomp and circumstance of a midnight mass or church service, go for it unreservedly.
We have an exemplar of our own in the "master architect of happiness" himself.
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You're welcome to plan, but I'd advise against this. A weekly commitment is one of the reasons I'm taking a sabbatical from the podcast.
One of the things that makes the 20th special is the connection it gives us to our Philosophical ancestors. It is truly an Epicurean event. Diluting that with more online meetups makes me a little sad. Even the Sunday recording sessions started to feel like church (that's not a positive association btw).
Maybe we need a more "formal" agenda for the 20ths? Open up to more people? I like your number 4 above as a start. Plot out 20ths ahead of time? Epicurus's birthday is coming up too I believe. Jan 9 or 10 (7 Gamelion) https://www.hellenion.org/calendar/
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This was a new ancient Greek winter solstice festival for me.
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Sedley's "Epicurus and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom," a
Not to be pedantic, but it's Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom.
In case anyone is looking for the book. -
Online Resources on Herculaneum Papyri | The Herculaneum Society
I realize these last few posts are not translations, but some at least have notations to which Herculaneum Papyri have fragments of On Nature in them. Then one could use those Papyri numbers to search for translations elsewhere. Those links also give a graphic image of how fragmentary some of these are!
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I believe reason that the Epicureans emphasized both physical and mental pleasures was to clearly differentiate themselves from the Cyrenaics who, as I understand, didn't put any value on mental pleasures.
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Epicurus: Fragments - translation
This link gives the fragments available at the time from the books of On Nature.
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Hiram also laid out the Books as outlined in Les Epicuriens
Epicurus’ On NatureI am currently re-reading Epicurus’ Books On Nature in Les Epicuriens, which is based on lectures given by Epicurus. We know that they were given late in…epicureandatabase.wordpress.comAnd there's always Sedley's The Transformation of Greek Wisdom for the topics covered in each Book. I can't remember whether there are excerpts or not off-hand.
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A big one
On Nature, Book 28
"Do Animals Have Freewill? Epicurus, On Nature XXV, 20 B and 20j Long–Sedley”,The view of P. Huby and D. N. Sedley that animals according to Epicurus have freewill is discussed and rejectedwww.academia.eduDo Animals Have Free Will: On Nature, Book 25 excerpts
If we could get our hands on issues of the Cronache Ercolanesi (Herculaneum Chronicle)! https://cispe.org/cronache-ercolanesi/
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Just read this today. Thought it might be applicable here:
Use the '20-5-3' Rule To Make Yourself Happier and StrongerAmericans spend 92 percent of their time indoors, and their physical and mental health are suffering. This three-number formula for how much time to spend in…menshealth.com -
The implications of the different positions are not nearly as significant as would be divergences on more core issues, because none of us think that these gods are supernatural or intervene in human affairs or reward or punish either during life or thereafter, and those are the "big" issues.
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(1) Epicurus was very clear that gods are physical beings and that the type of beings he is discussing really exist;
Well, Sedley would disagree with you there as I understand his position.
I realize that there are a lot of people, including some here, who think that Epicurean gods are simply mental constructs and that the don't really exist. That is not my position, because I think Epicurus was serious about what he wrote.
That would be me for one
and I also think Epicurus was serious about what he wrote. -
I'm getting these excerpts from my 80-page exploration of the letter to Menoikeus. It's almost ready to release as a *first draft* but I'll respond to the questions here since they're being asked:
123b begins the review of those elements of living nobly, beautifully, and virtuously.
123b. πρῶτον μὲν τὸν θεὸν ζῷον ἄφθαρτον καὶ μακάριον νομίζων, ὡς ἡ κοινὴ τοῦ θεοῦ νόησις ὑπεγράφη,
- μὲν can stand on its own, as here, in which case it can mean "so, whereas, and so" but it can also be left untranslated.
- The passage begins, appropriately enough, with πρῶτον (prōton) which literally means "first" but can also carry the idea of "primarily, foremost, most prominently, etc." So, Epicurus isn't just saying, "Okay, number one…" numerically but rather "This is important so I'm telling you this *first*!"
- The verb, νομίζων, comes last and means "believe, hold, consider." What are we to believe? We are to hold that: τὸν θεὸν ζῷον ἄφθαρτον καὶ μακάριον. So, what does that mean? Let's break it down.
- θεὸν is transliterated theon and is where English gets theology and atheist. τὸν θεὸν is singular, but, singular or plural, this can refer to a god, the gods, or the divine in general. However, David Sedley in his paper "Epicurus' Theological Innatism" https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/11365772 places significance on the singular construction. Sedley proposed each person creates their own "god" which is why he stressed the importance of the singular form. Sedley's paper is recommended reading. So, where the word is singular, I will try to translate it as such as to not obscure the semantics.
τὸν θεὸν ζῷον "a god (is a) ζῷον. But what is a ζῷον?
ζῷον (zōon) is where English zoology comes from.
LSJ gives two primary definitions:
- living being, animal
- in art, figure, image, not necessarily of animals (or a sign of the Zodiac)
So, unfortunately, at this point in the Letter we can't necessarily resolve the question of what the nature of the gods (or of a god) is according to Epicurus. Some scholars think Epicurus believed the gods were material beings ("living being, animal") somehow living between the various world-systems (cosmos) in the universe. Some think Epicurus believed the gods were mental representations or personifications of the concepts of blessedness ("figure, image, sign").
The Letter goes on to describe what kind of ζῷον a god is: ἄφθαρτον and μακάριον
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