Posts by Don

For anyone else interested where it comes from. I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere unfortunately.

Quote from Bryan

Have we found "SFOTSE" being used in the Roman period? Seneca was popular, and it became a well known phrase

Moral letters to Lucilius/Letter 25 - Wikisource, the free online library

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I must insert in this letter one or two more of his sayings:[2] 5. "Do everything as if Epicurus were watching you." There is no real doubt that it is good for one to have appointed a guardian over oneself, and to have someone whom you may look up to, someone whom you may regard as a witness of your thoughts. It is, indeed, nobler by far to live as you would live under the eyes of some good man, always at your side; but nevertheless I am content if you only act, in whatever you do, as you would act if anyone at all were looking on; because solitude prompts us to all kinds of evil.

Epistulae morales ad Lucilium/Liber III - Wikisource

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ait Epicurus, cuius aliquam vocem huic epistulae involvam. [5] 'Sic fac' inquit 'omnia tamquam spectet Epicurus.' Prodest sine dubio custodem sibi imposuisse et habere quem respicias, quem interesse cogitationibus tuis iudices. Hoc quidem longe magnificentius est, sic vivere tamquam sub alicuius boni viri ac semper praesentis oculis, sed ego etiam hoc contentus sum, ut sic facias quaecumque facies tamquam spectet aliquis: omnia nobis mala solitudo persuadet.

Quote from Joshua

Don, I quite like that.

Except for the One Ring. That belongs in a museum the fiery chasms of Orodruin!

LOL! You noticed! Ash nazg durbatuluk...

I've posted this before but figured this was appropriate here, too. These are my two Epicurean keychains: 1 with 4 wooden beads for the Tetrapharmakos; one with SFOTSE (Sic fac omnia tamquam spectet Epicurus "Do all things as if Epicurus were watching") with three beads for both physics, canon, and ethics or sensations, pathē, and prolepseis (take your pick )

I'm going to have to miss Tuesday and Thursday at that time is our regular Skype call with our daughter. Family takes precedence in the hedonic calculus

Since Kalosyni was kind enough to start this thread, I wanted to directly respond to some of her posts:

Quote from Kalosyni

Love is like oxygen,

You get too much,

You get too high,

Not enough,

And your gonna die."

So thinking about just these words...this talks about a human need.

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I do find it interesting that the oxygen analogy is used. I can't remember the song context (although I did remember the song!) and whether we're talking eros or philia or another flavor of "love." However, even Epicurus seems to caution a balance between intoxication (as Cassius has mentioned) and no love at all. He certainly didn't prohibit it in his students. Some of his handpicked closest students and fellow teachers in the Garden were married and had children. He expressed (friendly) affection for Themista, the wife of Leonteus. If Epicurus had a completely negative view of sex or romantic love or marriage, I find it hard to believe he'd allow a number of his students to engage in the activity. So maybe you do need just "enough."

Quote from Kalosyni

From a modern understanding...what kind of "harm" are we talking about now, in our times?

Oh, all kinds of psychological harm for sure. Romantic entanglements can lead to all kinds of problems. Let's say one partner falls out of love, but the other partner doesn't accept that. If one partner cheats on the other. If one partner gets in trouble and drags the other one into a dangerous situation or legal problems. And so on and so on. I am can envision all kinds of harms, Ancient and modern.

(Let me clearly state: I'm not talking from experience! I'm quite happy and blessed! )

Quote from Cassius

I think if Epicurus were here today he would probably say

These kind of statements always make me a little uneasy. The only speaking Epicurus is doing today is through his extant writings. I realize we need to interpret what we have, but I'd just advise treading carefully when putting words in Epicurus's mouth.

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, but just adding that caveat.

Epicurus: Fragments - translation

I keep coming back to Usener Fragment 67:

"For I at least do not even know what I should conceive the good to be, if I eliminate the pleasures of taste, and eliminate the pleasures of sex, and eliminate the pleasures of listening, and eliminate the pleasant motions caused in our vision by a visible form."

I'll need to read that closer then! Thanks for that! You were quicker than I was.

I will say that I'm always a little skeptical of phrases like:

" As to Cicero's translation, I reluctantly conclude that he, like Purinton, simply got it wrong."

Purinton is modern, but Cicero was much closer to the source material than we are. He even knew practicing Epicureans! I'm not so sure his translation should be summarily dismissed as "simply getting it wrong."

Quote from Cassius

in terms of marriage in Epicurus' own context, we need to be sure we keep grounded in Epicurus' will, in which he provided for the marriage of Metrodorus' daughter.

That is not a lot to go on. To expand the view to the earliest Epicureans, I submit this excerpt from Metrodorus's Wikipedia entry (emphasis added):

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Metrodorus died in 278/7 BC, in the 53rd year of his age, seven years before Epicurus, who would have appointed him his successor had he survived him. He left behind him a son named Epicurus, and a daughter, whom Epicurus, in his will, entrusted to the guardianship of Amynomachus and Timocrates of Potamus, to be brought up under the joint care of themselves and Hermarchus, and provided for out of the property which he left behind him. In a letter also which he wrote upon his death-bed, Epicurus commended the children to the care of Idomeneus, who had married Batis, the sister of Metrodorus. The 20th of each month was kept by the disciples of Epicurus as a festive day in honour of their master and Metrodorus. Leontion is spoken of as the wife or mistress of Metrodorus.

Quote from Kalosyni

The word "love" itself becomes very complicated because of all it's forms.

Couldn't agree more on that. I always come back to the ability of English to say each of the following:

I love ice cream.

I love my spouse.

I love my children.

I love my grandma.

I love my friends.

I love reading.

etc.

An abundance of nuance is packed into that one four-letter word "love." It does a lot of heavy lifting in our language!

Thought this might be helpful too

Greek words for love - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'll look forward to digging into your post as well!

Just found this in Academia. Just read the first few paragraphs, but I found the author's note on translation of DL 10.118 and VS51 intriguing!

Epicurus on Sex, Marriage, and Children

Argues for the correct understanding of two fragments of Epicurean ethics. Changes text of one fragment (change substantially accepted in Marcovich's 1999…

www.academia.edu

The Internet Classics Archive | On the Nature of Things by Lucretius

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And here, whoso

Decides to call the ocean Neptune, or

The grain-crop Ceres, and prefers to abuse

The name of Bacchus rather than pronounce

The liquor's proper designation, him

Let us permit to go on calling earth

Mother of Gods, if only he will spare

To taint his soul with foul religion.

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We should always remember that Lucretius is using the Greek gods' names metaphorically, as he describes in Book 2 above.

Aphrodite and the Gods of Love: Worship (Getty Villa Exhibitions)

This is the first time I've ever seen one aspect of Aphrodite be named "Aphrodite en kepois" (Aphrodite in the gardens).

https://www.theoi.com/Cult/AphroditeCult.html

This page seems to imply there was a shrine of Aphrodite kepois in or near the Kerameikos district of ancient Athens. Where was the Garden of Epicurus? In the Kerameikos. Coincidence? Pausanias was writing in the 2nd c. CE.

Aphrodite of the Gardens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I realize this is a bit of a tangent so I apologize for that. To get back on track, here's my take on the characteristics of the sage as it pertains to this topic:

PS: Having looked at that Pausanias excerpt closer, maybe I spoke too soon. Here are the two sections in Pausanias where he talks about Aphrodite in the gardens:

Pausanias, Description of Greece, Attica, chapter 27

Pausanias, Description of Greece, Attica, chapter 19

I never thought of the "breaking the cycle of samsara/rebirth" as akin to "better never to have been born'" but I can see where that could be inferred.

Oh yeah, Epicurus was NOT cool with that sentiment! He hits this hard in 126-7:

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So, the one who exhorts, on the one hand, for the one who is young to live nobly; and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed but also because the practice of living well, nobly, and beautifully and the practice of dying well, nobly, and beautifully are the same. But far worse is the one who says, on the one hand, it is well not to be born; or, on the other hand,

"failing this, to pass through the gates of Hades as soon as possible."

[127] On the one hand, if what they say is persuasive, how does one not depart from life? For this is readily at hand, if indeed one was to resolve oneself steadfastly to this. If, on the other hand, this is in jest, one is foolish for making fun of things which do not admit of this.

I always get a kick out of the fact that Epicurus is quoting Theognis's poem in that line before 127. It tickles me because Epicurus resolves the μεν (on the one hand) in his own writing using the δε (on the other hand) in Theognis's poem. That's some clever writing!

Sorry, went off on a little tangent there.

I just saw Kalosyni 's "Bible" reference to be metaphorical, as in a collection of authoritative texts providing what Epicurus and the early Epicureans wrote up to 529 CE. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever get such a reference work. The closest we currently have is Book X of Diogenes Laertius although I've been reading Philodemus's On Property Management and On Death today and may have some posts at some point. The scrolls from Herculaneum are always tantalizingly out of reach. I also recently requested Les Epicuriens through interlibrary loan, but, as I barely read French at all, we'll see how helpful it is.

Also Kalosyni , I agree about the UU church (although just as history for anyone interested, the Universalist comes from the Christian concept of universal salvation for everyone and not a benevolent universe) not necessarily being the *best *spot to form a Garden. . Here are some of the reasons I thought they *might* be amenable:

https://www.uucantonny.org/good-without-god/ (mentions Epicurus)

The Swerve: How the World Became Modern | Unitarian Universalist Church of Canton

https://austinuu.org/wp2013/spiritual-ambivalence/ "Epicurus modified the whole dualistic view of humans and took the stance that flesh AND soul were physical and both ended with death – and both body and soul dissolved back into nothingness upon death. Life was for living; it wasn’t just a preamble to eternity."

https://www.uuworld.org/articles/ameri…er-church-state (mentions Epicurus)

"Epicurean group's circle dinners" https://www.phoenixuu.org/wp-content/upl…018/08/1996.pdf

btw, I laughed out loud in the car at Cassius 's mention of our only time limit is "our inevitable death". Can't argue with that!

Keep up the good work!

Joshua and Cassius ,

Both your posts were extremely helpful. Thank you very much for taking the time to compose them! I think I get it now and concur with your conclusions. And, Joshua , we all (I think) continue to wrestle with the anticipations

This also helps contextualize that word δογματιζω (dogmatizō), too, when you say (emphasis added):

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus took firm positions on these issues through deductive chain reasoning

That's exactly what I think is meant by the use of the word unfortunately translated by some as the English "dogmatic." The original meaning in the texts strikes me as being exactly aligned with Cassius 's statement.

I sometimes wonder if contacting some Unitarian Universalist churches wouldn't be fruitful to set up Epicurean "study groups" or events.

We went to a UU church a number of years ago when the kids were little, and they were very (almost too) open to all beliefs and non-beliefs.

Side note: My favorite anecdote from that time happened during the Q&A after the sermon one Sunday. It was a sermon on spirituality, etc., and one of the attendees (a long-time member!) raised his hand and started his comment with "I have to say that I'm not comfortable with all this God talk." Yeah, it was that kind of congregation

I did have a question and observation:

(1) Both Joshua in this episode and DeWitt in his book say that Epicurus was definitely not a complete empiricist. I'm curious why that is.

To me, Epicurus seemed exactly to be described as that:

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a person who supports the theory that all knowledge is based on experience derived from the senses.

Am I misunderstanding something in the definition of empiricism? I'm also not being argumentative, just curious.

On the topic of Epicurus's being "dogmatic," the word used in Diogenes Laërtius's work is

δογματιεῖν

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δ , δμῳ-ή , δογμα^τ-ίζω

with the sense of decree or "lay down as an opinion."

From the context of DL, I get the sense that it is a counter to the Cynics and Skeptics in that the wise one will take a firm stand and not be wishy-washy.

Finally finished up on the way home tonight.

Incidentally, thanks for the couple shout-outs

This was a good episode, gentlemen. Well done. These more freewheeling discussions are very helpful and engaging. I really liked the specific mentions of the forum and our extended discussions here.