Posts by Don

I've heard of some Unitarian churches holding Epicurean events or having Epicurean study groups. I can't remember where online I saw that, but I remember being pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for the reminder! I had forgotten about that!

One of Cassius 's favorite Vatican Sayings (attributed to Metrodorus):

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VS47 : I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And we will not give ourselves up as captives to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who here vainly cling to it, we will leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that we have lived well.

I was intrigued by the word translated as "triumph-song." The word (according to Bailey) is παιωνος (paiōnos), an Ionic form of the word παιάν (paian > English "paean"):

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, π , πάγ-χαλκος , Παιάν

As the LSJ says, the song had its origin in a hymn to Apollo, the healer of the gods. This has direct relevance to this birthday of Epicurus. DeWitt had said that one of Epicurus's favorite "expletives" was "Paian Anax!" which refers to Apollo as Lord and Healer. (Think of saying something like "Good Lord!" when you're surprised by something or excited.) Epicurus is also a physician in his providing a practical philosophy for the "health of the body and tranquility of the mind." There are also associations with Apollo with picking the 20th as the date of the Epicurean monthly celebrations. And, finally, this 7th of Gamelion (1/10/22) is, according to that calendar link, a feast day of Apollo!

This connection of Apollo with the Epicureans intrigues me and may warrant further research. But that's for later. For now, here are some quick connections between Aphrodite ("patron goddess" of the Epicureans) and Apollo...

Aphrodite and Apollo

Aphrodite and Apollo

One of hundreds of thousands of free digital items from The New York Public Library.

digitalcollections.nypl.org

https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/ApollonLoves.html

ADONIS A prince of the island Kypros (eastern Mediterranean) who was loved by the god Apollon. Adonis was described as androgynous, acting like a man in his affections for Aphrodite, and like a woman with Apollon.

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 16 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :

"Aphrodite, furious with Kleio . . . caused her to fall in love with Magnes' son Pieros. As a result of their union she bore him a son Hyakinthos. Thamyris, son of Philammon and the Nymphe Argiope, the first male to love other males, fell in love with Hyakinthos. Later on Apollon, who also loved him, accidentally killed him with a discus."

I laugh when I think I had originally thought when I was involved in the Cicero portion of the podcast that that Torquatus material could be all covered in six weeks. LOL! You all are doing a great job really digging into this work! As always thank you for this and keep up the good work!

That is fascinating. These do echo Diogenes Laertius's later list of the sage's characteristics. I didn't read On Ends closely enough to pick this up! I took the liberty to put this into an actual outline. You're right. It was easy.

For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy:

• he keeps his passions within bounds;
• about death he is indifferent;
• he holds true views concerning the eternal gods apart from all dread;
• he has no hesitation in crossing the boundary of life, if that be the better course.
• Furnished with these advantages he is continually in a state of pleasure, and there is in truth no moment at which he does not experience more pleasures than pains.
• For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present;
• he is also very far removed from those defects of character which I quoted a little time ago, and when he compares the fool’s life with his own, he feels great pleasure.
• And pains, if any befall him, have never power enough to prevent the wise man from finding more reasons for joy than for vexation.
• [63] It was indeed excellently said by Epicurus that fortune only in a small degree crosses the wise man’s path, and that
  • his greatest and most important undertakings are executed in accordance with his own design and his own principles,
  • and that no greater pleasure can be reaped from a life which is without end in time, than is reaped from this which we know to have its allotted end.
• He judged that the logic of your school possesses no efficacy either for the amelioration of life or for the facilitation of debate.
• He laid the greatest stress on natural science. That branch of knowledge enables us to realize clearly the force of words and the natural conditions of speech and the theory of consistent and contradictory expressions; and
• when we have learned the constitution of the universe we are
  • relieved of superstition,
  • are emancipated from the dread of death,
  • are not agitated through ignorance of phenomena, from which ignorance, more than any thing else, terrible panics often arise;
• finally, our characters will also be improved when we have learned what it is that nature craves.
• Then again if we grasp a firm knowledge of phenomena, and uphold that canon, which almost fell from heaven into human ken, that test to which we are to bring all our judgments concerning things, we shall never succumb to any man’s eloquence and abandon our opinions.

It's important to remember that parrhesia (frank speech) wasn't just used with philosophical adversaries or people the Epicureans disagreed with. According to Philodemus's work, it was a tool of instruction within the Epicurean community. If someone wasn't living up to their potential in putting the philosophy into practice in their life, the teachers would engage in frank speech to correct the student.

I keep meaning to read Voula Tsouna's The Ethics of Philodemus cover to cover which includes a section on this (and to try and get ahold of Philodemus's On Frank Speech). I've mostly used Tsouna's book to harvest citations and excerpts from Philodemus.

Quote from Cassius

I can hear Don thinking "this guy is the reincarnation of Norman deWitt!" Kind of an inside joke but can't resist making it

I can take a hint I agree with @smoothiekiwi that and think Christianity did - let's just go ahead and say it - stole and perverted some practices from the Epicureans. I just think DeWitt sees Epicureans hiding around EVERY Christian corner with the barest (or even absence) of evidence and in the process he dilutes his premise to the point of absurdity.

Too harsh?

No less an authority than Wikipedia gives one citation:

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Caesar made numerous attempts to negotiate, at one point even conceding to give up all but one of his provinces and legions, allowing him to retain his immunity while diminishing his authority. This concession satisfied Pompey, but Cato, along with the consul Lentulus, refused to back down. Faced with the alternatives of returning to Rome for the inevitable trial and retiring into voluntary exile, Caesar crossed into Italy with only one legion, implicitly declaring war on the senate. Plutarch, Pompey , 59.4

Plutarch, Pompey, chapter 59, section 4

Quote from Cassius

IF IN FACT A BLISS DRUG WORKED THEN AN EPICUREAN WOULD CHOOSE IT!

Ad nauseum, I come to the exact OPPOSITE conclusion (in capital letters, too ). If you wanna reopen this can, I'll be happy to engage in a separate thread.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Honestly a shame that this practice was lost to time, I would love to visit such a garden with a smiling Epicurean and a lot of good friends in it!

It wasn't "lost." We know what happened to it. We have the "Triumph" of Christianity to "thank" for it. I recommend Nixey's book The Darkening Age for that story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Darkening_Age?wprov=sfla1

According to the best attempt at an ancient Greek calendar to fit modern times that I've been able to find online, Epicurus's birthday of the 7th day in the month of Gamelion will fall this year on Monday, January 10.

So, this coming Monday, take a moment to remember the "master-builder of happiness" as Lucretius called him and dedicate yourself to the pursuit of pleasure in your life.

Quote from Diogenes Laertius, Book X.9

"For our philosopher has abundance of witnesses to attest his unsurpassed goodwill to all men--his native land, which honoured him with statues in bronze ; his friends, so many in number that they could hardly be counted by whole cities, and indeed all who knew him, held fast as they were by the siren-charms of his doctrine..."

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK X, EPICURUS (341-271 B.C.)

So, the school of Epicurus was widespread and long-lived throughout the ancient world. In many ways, it could be called "evangelical" in the literal sense of "spreading the good news." However, I get the impression that there were NOT Epicurean" missionaries but rather it spread from individual to individual. Then, if a particularly wealthy Epicurean in a particular city was able to open their house or garden to others, that would start a Garden (κήπος kēpos) in that city to serve as a school and meeting place.

Quote from Cassius

her final two paragraphs

You do realize there's more article below those paragraphs, right?

Here's my take:

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The wise one will not make fine speeches, (118) but will only give public readings upon request. (120) The wise one will not get caught up in political offices nor strive to be an absolute ruler, the ultimate political office. (119) Nor will they be a Cynic nor a beggar. (119) Nor will the wise one be anxious about their burial (118). Additionally, the wise one will set up statues but will be indifferent to ones being set up in their honor. (120) The sage will leave behind writings like prose works, treatises, and written speeches, but will not make celebratory speeches in the public assemblies. (120) The sage will be fond of the countryside, enjoying being outside the towns and cities. (120) The wise one will also pay just enough attention to their reputation as to avoid being looked down upon. (120) Even when drunk, the wise one will not talk nonsense or act silly. (119) Only the wise man will be competent to discuss music and poetry without writing poems of their own. (120) The sage will found a school, but not in a way that attracts a crowd around themselves or plays to the mob. (120)

I would even speculate where a desire falls in those categories can be contextual and dependent on circumstances at any given time, too.

Ah! The phrase used in those is οὐκ εἰσὶν ἀναγκαῖαι "they are not necessary." So, the word unnecessary isn't there, but it is explicitly said "they are not necessary." Mea culpa.

I find it interesting that Epicurus didn't actually use the word "unnecessary" although one could argue it's implied. But it is not explicit:

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Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself.

Unless he talked about the division of desires somewhere else and used "unnecessary" explicitly. I certainly don't have the texts memorized

To circle back to the topic of this thread, addictions are not predicated on empty desires. It would seem to me that most addictions start out as natural but unnecessary desires. In fact, I would posit that most of our everyday desires fall into the "natural but not necessary" category, but they do add variety to our lives.

Quote from Cassius

Maybe our lexicon or FAQ ought to include a list of actual or probable Epicurean "idioms"

If we're going that route, my suggestion would be to have an entry for "Empty" Desires and then make a point of saying "this is the word Epicurus used to describe desires which..." I don't think we should shy away from his modifier but understand it may need some context. I maintain it's a good word and gets at the unsatisfying nature of the empty desires, like "empty" calories, empty handed, empty headed, etc.

Quote from Cassius

Don I presume this ("entirely in vain") is pretty much the same sentiment we are discussing? If so maybe we can find some points of comparison with the Latin from this section.

The alternative translation just has "have come to nothing" which is comparable to "in vain" but even better, from my perspective, since it also equates to "empty" (nothing). The applicable Latin appears to be nullas: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…Aentry%3Dnullus.

Maybe desires that come to nothing instead of "empty" desires?