Posts by Don

Using that last post: There are a lot of offerings and celebrations that Epicurus makes provisions for in his will:

• for the funeral offerings separately to
  • my father
  • mother
  • and brothers
• for the customary celebration of my birthday on the tenth day of Gamelion in each year [oops! So it's the 10th and not the 7th??]
• for the meeting of all my School held every month on the twentieth day to commemorate Metrodorus and myself according to the rules now
• join in celebrating the day in Poseideon which commemorates my brothers
• likewise the day in Metageitnion which commemorates Polyaenus, as I have done hitherto.

From the wording, it appears most if not all of these events were going on already, and Epicurus was just making plans for them to continue after he died. And everyone who is being commemorated here is dead already, except Epicurus himself. So, Epicurus commemorates the lives of those who have died on an annual basis and monthly in the case of Metrodorus being commemorated on each 20th. I'm curious if all this was common practice in ancient Greece with birthdays and commemorating the dead. This is a little off target but here is one perspective: https://news.uark.edu/articles/12089…ancient-history

It seems that the dead - although Epicurus's philosophy clearly states that the dead no longer exist - are still "part of the family," they have a continued influence on the living through memory of them. How much more influence on the living community of Epicureans would Metrodorus, Polyaenus, and eventually Epicurus himself have, even after they ceased to exist.

FYI: Diogenes Laertius, book X.18.

"And from the revenues made over by me to Amynomachus and Timocrates let them to the best of their power in consultation with Hermarchus make separate provision (1) for the funeral offerings to my father, mother, and brothers, and (2) for the customary celebration of my birthday on the tenth day of Gamelion in each year, and for the meeting of all my School held every month on the twentieth day to commemorate Metrodorus and myself according to the rules now in force.31 Let them also join in celebrating the day in Poseideon which commemorates my brothers, and likewise the day in Metageitnion which commemorates Polyaenus, as I have done hitherto."

I'm seeing a definition of apperception as:

the mental process by which a person makes "sense of an idea by assimilating it to the body of ideas he or she already possesses."

LSJ just glosses the word as "perceptions"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐπαίσθ-ημα

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I don't even know what YOLO is

LOL It's an acronym for "You Only Love Once" which while true is often used to characterize a daredevil, no-holds-barred lifestyle.

I guess I could have also used FOMO "Fear of Missing Out."

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I’m currently a high school student, as- as strangely as it sounds-, there simply isn’t any time left during the week to go out and enjoy the stars.

I certainly respect that fact that the life of a high school student can be hectic! You don't need to add anything else to your schedule.

But, I think, that's one of the points of Epicurus's philosophy. It's about finding pleasure where you are, right now, in the big things but also importantly the little, everyday things. It's the philosophy that could lead Horace to write:

Carpe diem!

which is usually translated as "Seize the day!" as if it's a YOLO sentiment. (Is using YOLO still a thing??) It's not that. "Carpe" is more accurately translated as "pluck" or "harvest" because the time is ripe, right now, this day, this moment, to find pleasure. So, you don't have to make time to star gaze (although that can be rewarding in many ways). Notice the way the sun plays through the leaves as you walk to or from school. Feel the sun (when it's warm) on your face. Take pleasure in whatever learning you *can* achieve at school whether in your formal classes or by exploring online or in the library. Begin to notice where you can feel gratitude, too. Epicurus places an emphasis on feeling gratitude, even for little things. (Confession: I tend to say "Thank you" out loud when the alarm goes off in my car if I still have the keys in the ignition when I open the door. I am grateful for the engineer that decided to put that feature in so I don't lock my keys in my car! I realize it's a little strange for me to do this maybe, but it works for me.)

You'll see a lot of deep philosophical discussions on this forum and exploration of ancient Greek and Latin texts, etc., and that's great. I take pleasure in all that.

However, for me, Epicurus gave us a practical philosophy, rooted in the everyday experience of human beings, and made it accessible to everyone - otherwise it would not have spread across the ancient world in city after city. At its core, his philosophy is about personal responsibility for actions taken and taking pleasure in the everyday living of our lives.

I'll end with a quote of Epicurus's opening line in his letter to his student Menoikeus:

"Neither must one who is young delay in loving and pursuing wisdom; nor should one who is old grow weary of loving and pursuing wisdom; because it is neither out of season nor untimely for the health of the mind." It's never out of season, nor too early, nor too late. No one is neither too young nor too old to practice philosophy.

Thank you again for engaging on the forum. You've made some great posts, asked a lot of great questions, and I look forward to reading more from you!

I know I'm late to the game here with this, but I thought Bailey (Epicurus: The Extant Remains (1926)) had some interesting input for this discussion:

PD9 Εἰ κατεπυκνοῦτο πᾶσα ἡδονὴ, καὶ χρόνῳ καὶ περὶ ὅλον τὸ ἄθροισμα ὑπῆρχεν ἢ τὰ κυριώτατα μέρη τῆς φύσεως, οὐκ ἄν ποτε διέφερον ἀλλήλων αἱ ἡδοναί.

Bailey's translation:

If every pleasure could be intensified so that it lasted and influenced the whole organism or the most essential parts of our nature, pleasures would never differ from one another.

Bailey's is actually a little more literal some of the other translations.

Bailey translates ἄθροισμα as "organism," seeing this word as literally "the 'aggregate' of atoms of the sould and body which composes man." The word meant "things taken in the aggregate" in ancient Greek.

τὰ κυριώτατα μέρη > Bailey: "the most important parts', i.e., especially the mind rather than the body."

Bailey commentary:

"IX is a unique statement in Epicurus but very important, as it gives the ground for the differentiation of pleasures. Gassendi observed that it was directed against the Cyrenaics, who held (D L ii 87) that ‘no pleasure differs from any other nor is it more pleasant’: they believed also that pleasure was merely momentary and could not be prolonged, so that the object of life was to accumulate as many pleasurable moments as possible, and it did not matter from what source they were derived, life for them was simply and solely apolaustic [devoted to enjoyment]. Epicurus’ view, on the other hand, was that although pleasure could not be increased quantitatively beyond the limit of the complete absence of pain [PD3], yet pleasures could be varied, and had qualitative differences. Here he also implies that they can differ in ‘density’ in three ways, either by lasting longer or by affecting the whole organism or by affecting its more important parts (in particular, the mind). If all pleasures were alike in these respects, then there would be no difference at all between them, but as it is, a ‘calculus of pleasures ’ becomes possible, we can select our pleasures, either according as they are more pure, i e. more completely exclude pain (VIII and XI), or as they are more lasting or affect the whole organism or its more important parts. The theory is an integral part of the ethical scheme and is needed to complete the argument of Ep. iii, § 129."

Bailey goes on to connect PD9 with PD10 through PD13.

"X-XIII regarded as going together and are naturally approached from IX. Epicurus is applying the test of the κυριώτατα μέρη, and in particular of the mind. For its pleasure the necessary conditions are, as has been learnt from the Tetrapharmakos, a true knowledge of the nature of the gods and of death, and an understanding of the bounds to be set to desire and of the limits of pain. Now the pleasures of sensuality cannot help us here ; if they could, we might (apart fiom then accompanying pain) regard them as perfect pleasures. But for this purpose vie must turn rather to philosophy, which gives us the sure knowledge of the nature of the viorld and the principles of our own conduct. PD10 is a straightforward statement. If the pleasures of the body could give us what we need, we could find nothing to censure in them."

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the content of the video ; however, it seemed very appropriate for discussion here. I'll be interested to see where this thread goes.

Thoughts?

I know I have to read Philebus, but I'm not looking forward to it. I have to say that

Quote from Cassius

"pleasure has no limit so that means it can't be THE good"

doesn't even seem relevant to me! The reason pleasure is "the good" is because it is the thing to which everything else points and the reason we do everything. We are virtuous because it brings us pleasure. We make wise decisions to live pleasingly. We engage in some painful activities, knowing (we hope) more pleasure will come from our actions. It all points to pleasure.

I *know* Socrates will NOT abide those statements and will engage in word games and goal-post moving, and I expect the reading of Philebus will be an exercise in aggravation and frustration. But I know it'll need necessary at some point. Arrggh. Where's the honey on the rim of this cup of wormwood?

Epicurus's instructions to commit his epitomes, summaries, and principal Doctrines to memory suggests to me some kind of repetition in the process of memorization. I've personally used silently repeating the Tetrapharmakos in Greek in meditation and it's worked well to focus the mind.

I also (I think) said elsewhere that meditation helps one learn to gain a certain sense of the pleasure of ataraxia. And I maintain it's easier to make sound choices and rejections if one is able to make decisions with a focused, undistracted mind. Meditation can be a *tool* toward the end of living a pleasurable life.

I am not a regular meditator by any means but it is one of the things I seem to return to repeatedly.

Quote from Joshua

1. Keep a journal

Yes! I couldn't agree more! I've been an on again off again journal keeper for going on - oh my - 30(!) years. I started shortly after my daughter was born to remember things she did, but it's grown into more than that over the years. It has been an endless source of joy to look back and relive moments forgotten in the hustle and bustle of daily life.

In the front of my current journal volume, I've written:

τοῦ γεγονότος ἀμνήμων ἀγαθοῦ γέρων τήμερον γεγένηται.

(Which of course is VS19 "He who forgets the good things he had yesterday becomes an old man today.")

I thought it would be appropriate

Quote from Joshua

2. Go for a walk.

Yes again!! We've always enjoyed walking, and that has been about all we've been able to do during this pandemic.

For those who enjoy walks, I discovered the AllTrails app and website back around March 2020. We've discovered numerous trails near our house that we never works I have known existed. One of the most used apps on my phone. Can't recommend more highly: https://www.alltrails.com/

Quote from Joshua

3. Stargaze

Yes yet again. There's something about staring up into the night sky to provide perspective on one's place in the universe. Goal this year: visit a nearby Dark Park to view a meteor shower! And the aside about the photons from Alpha Centauri was great! btw SO excited to have read the Webb Telescope has fully deployed and is safely in its way to L2!!!

Quote from Joshua

4. Have lunch with an old friend

Sadly, no able to do this nearly enough.

Plus the rest of your spot-on suggestions, Joshua ! Your post was perfect. Thank you for sharing these and for bringing Epicurean philosophy right down to the grassroots level! Ευχαριστώ!! Thank you!

Joshua

I do not have enough fingers and toes!

Well done!!

Quote from Cassius

Don so what do you conclude to be the closest modern calendar equivalent?

I like the Hellenion one I initially linked to. That's the one I "follow."

Quote from Gassendi vis Cassius

Now forasmuch as in January, in which month the beginning of Gamelion is observ’d to have fallen, there happened a new Moon in the Attick Horizon, by the Tables of Celestiall Motions, the fourth day, in the morning, (or the third day, according to the Athenians, who as [31]Censorinus saith, reckon their day from Sun-set to Sun-set) and therefore the twentieth day of the Moon is co-incident with the three and twentieth of January

I point to this excerpt here to illustrate what we're up against. "The fourth day... Or the third day, according to the Athenians..." Do we calculate sunset to sunset? Sunrise to sunrise? New moon to New moon?

That "Athenian" calculation could make the difference between Sunday or Monday easily; however, I realize Gassendi is trying to say they were the same day just arrived at by two different calculations.

Gassendi's calculation strikes me as similar to the Usher's attempt to calculate the day of Creation

Ussher chronology - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

at least Gassendi was trying to calculate a real person's birthday.

Quote from Godfrey

No, the opposite. The source, the pathe, is the same but our experience of it is different in different parts of the mind/body, over different durations and, depending on how one interprets the Greek, due to varying intensities.

Oh! In reading your post again, I think we're using source in two different ways. I was using it as the action that elicits the pathē. You're using source to mean the pathē, the sense of pleasure itself.

Do I interpret your post correctly? If so, that might change my calculus too.

Hmmm. I'll have to think on this some more. Honestly, not sure if I agree or not. But this is a tricky one... At least for us. When discussions like this come up, I always have the feeling that the ancient Epicureans read this and went "Yep, I totally agree with that and it makes perfect sense!" Insert frustration for the lost traditions here.

How we *experience* pleasure in the mind/body is the same, no matter the source?

Quote from Cassius

Here is a post from Holly at Facebook earlier this week. It is so frustrating that this is so hard to do:

"I have been following this FB group, and they calculate today as being 5 Gamelion, so the 7th would be Sunday."
https://www.facebook.com/PrayerstotheGodsofHellas

So, basically what we have here are two Hellenic reconstructionist neo-pagan groups coming up with two slightly different calendars.

I'm sticking to the original one I posted from Hellenion since they linked to (what seems) some authoritative sources for their calculations. But, in the end, we're all pretending we can pinpoint a birthday that happened 2,300+ years ago to the day.

As someone said here, it's the celebration (and commemoration) that counts.

Quote from Cassius

forget the moon issue.

Is that possible?

"Forget the moon" is either a great name for a band or for a poignant memoir.

Sure, it's possible. There's no way to perfectly calibrate the calendars.

That said, picking a random date in our calendar and sticking to it has precedent: Presidents Day (started as Washington's birthday)... Heck, Christmas is supposed to be Jesus's birthday and that's totally random!

Pick the 7th of December, January, or February and be done is a perfectly feasible solution.

Quote from Godfrey

can't comment on the correct Greek

I'll take a shot.

The word used is κατεπυκνοῦτο:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, καταπυκν-όω

"If all pleasure (singular, as in describing the general phenomenon of pleasure) 'could be κατεπυκνοῦτο'"

So the sense is compress, consolidate, "fill in the intervals".