Posts by Don

Pity per JRR Tolkien not Nietzsche:

Pity + Mercy = Compassion? or something else?

I have to say I like the "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." I don't know whether it's Epicurean or not, but that's some good wordsmithing imho on the part of JRRT.

For background on Pandora, I can't recommend more highly Natalie Haynes entertaining episode:

BBC Radio 4 - Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics, Series 7, Pandora

A mythological equivalent to Eve with a bit of Sleeping Beauty thrown in. With Edith Hall

www.bbc.co.uk

She also literally wrote the book on Pandora:

Pandora's Jar by Natalie Haynes review – ancient misogyny

The writer and broadcaster rescues the reputation of the women demonised in classical literature in this erudite and funny study

www.theguardian.com

Quote from Epicurus

...even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control, they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that praise and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves. [134] Because of this, it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers, because necessity is not moved by prayer...

Quote from Joshua

Quote

Ep.1p.11U. (pl.), al.

This looks to me like a citation to Usener's Epicurea, no?

That's what I thought but "Usener 11" doesn't seem to line up with anything.

The only thing I've found do far is this Vatican Saying :

LXVI. Let us show our feeling for our lost friends not by lamentation but by meditation.

*LXVI. Συμπαθωμεν τοις φίλοις ου θρηνουντες αλλά φροντιζοντες.

[Sympathōmen tois philois ou thrēnountes alla phrontizontes]

Bailey commentary:

"LXVI. Usener is probably right in holding that this fragment cannot refer to sympathy with living friends (θρηνουντες is against that), but to

feeling for friends who are dead The true Epicurean will not idly lament their death, but meditate on their lives. Compare PD11."

Συμπαθωμεν is a verb. "Let us 'sympathize'"

θρηνουντες refers to wailing, singing a dirge, lamenting.

φροντιζουντες connotes reflection on, giving thought to...

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Φ φ, , φρι_κ-ώδης , φροντ-ίζω

Quote from Scott

His focus was more on pleasure, not on escaping pain, right?

That's certainly my take.

You bring up a good point, Scott . We technically dealing with 3 different things that sometimes get conflated:

• compassion
• sympathy
• empathy

Common language sometimes sees those as synonyms, but you're right to focus on the distinctions.

I found it interesting that the LSJ specifically reference the philosophy of Epicurus in its definition of sympatheia:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, συμπάθ-εια

"in the Philosophy of Epicurus, corresponding 'affection' or quality, affinity, Ep.1p.11U. (pl.), al."

I'm not sure what that citation to Epicurus means

I seem to remember reading somewhere (a while ago!) that the predominant ethos in ancient Greece was to do everything you could for your friends and associates and do everything you could to crush your enemies. The world was divided into friends/enemies.

That being said, Diogenes of Oenoanda's inscription was specifically designed to spread the "good news" of Epicurus to all who came in contact with it:

καὶ νῦν̣ ̣κ̣αὶ ἀεὶ πᾶσιν Ἕλλησι κ[αὶ] βαρβάροις "both now and always for all Greeks and barbarians (non-Greeks)"

We have Janko's book in the library. I'll have to check on this one, Joshua.

Quote from Joshua

The Sedley book is Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom

I find that book fascinating. Especially, now again that I'm working through On Nature in Les Epicuriens. The connections between Epicurus's work and Lucretius's is very interesting. I find this doubly so (and I have source amnesia on this) that I've read Cicero was possibly using Philodemus for his Torquatus and other Epicurean material; while Lucretius had been using older texts - maybe even exclusively Epicurus's On Nature. Philodemus (and the more contemporary Epicureans) may have updated some of Epicurus's older celestial observations with more "modern" observations including the size of the sun argument. That may very well be in Sedley, so be on the lookout. I get the sense that Philodemus didn't refute Epicurus so much as update his work with more current observations.

Look forward to hearing what you think of it.

Quote from Joshua

On that note, we turn next to Diogenes of Oenoanda

The Greek of the inscription is available at https://papyri.info/dclp/865216

I'm going to attempt to find a few of the words that Joshua highlighted and see where we get...

The first quote is from Fragment 3:

ὅπερ ἐστὶν ἀταραξία, καὶ ἑνὶ καὶ πᾶσι τὸ αὐτό ἐστιν.

Our old friend ataraxia is here: translated here as "freedom from disturbance"

"for both one and all it is the same" (kai eni kai pasi...)

I think "his mission" is being conveyed by

τὸ κατεσπουδ̣ασμένον ἡμῶν "our earnestness" It's an interesting paraphrase there to the best of my ability right now.

It's also getting late. Maybe get a fresh start tomorrow night.

Thanks for the fun translation exercise!

Quote from Joshua

one by David Sedley, and the other by Michael McOsker;

The Philodemus one looks interesting. I have to ask: Which Sedley book did you get? Look forward to seeing some reviews if you get the chance. Happy reading!

My only question, Joshua : Why goldenrod?

Quote from Don

We had this conversation about a symbol for Epicureans before (e.g., ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus ) but I like the arch... Unless someone else uses it.

I'm curious if any of the newer members of the forum have ideas on a "symbol/logo" for Epicureanism.

We had this conversation about a symbol for Epicureans before (e.g., ⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus ) but I like the arch... Unless someone else uses it.

For comparison

Introduction to Greek architecture (article) | Khan Academy

www.khanacademy.org

Roman architecture (article) | Ancient Rome | Khan Academy

www.khanacademy.org

The Romans are definitely credited with perfecting the true arch (as opposed to corbelled vaults) and running with it. Arches are all over Roman architecture: triumphal arches, aqueducts, amphitheaters, tunnels, etc etc.

Quote from Cassius

Don do you not find that "Les Epicureans" has less information in it that would help you determine how much confidence to put in the translation? I am thinking i remember that it's not heavily footnoted or referenced, so it's hard to know how much is reconstruction and how firm it is. Am I misremembering that?

Oh, it is heavily footnoted and appears conservative in the translations with all the lacunae and fragments marked. I have no hesitation in seeing the translations as authoritative. Pages 1079-1469 are nothing but footnotes and commentary.

That is a great visual metaphor, Joshua !! It also alleviates the problem of which is more important or which comes first. All three are needed for the structure. I like it, too, for the idea that the arch can be seen as a portal to the Garden. Too bad the Greeks didn't have the arch. Lintel/post construction isn't as elegant as a metaphor. Maybe that's our visual representation of the philosophy. Better to have an arch necklace than an execution device around one's neck (Yeah, looking at you, Christians.)

I can see I'll have to read through these, compare the French and the machine-translated English, and correct some punctuation and obvious errors. I can also see that some sections are going to be difficult because of the fragmentary nature of the papyri. Lots of holes! That's the [lac. ...] in the texts: lacuna. Frg. = Fragment numbers. One bonus with these is that it gives the P.Herc. numbers, so I hope to *eventually* link to images of the papyri.

This project also reinforces how much we've lost! The tantalizing fragments start an idea, then it breaks off. An argument being made cuts off before its end. It's like Epicurus is giving a lecture over Zoom and the connection keeps freezing and dropping out.

I'm not going to do this for everything, but I wanted to give everyone another taste of what I'm running up against. Here is Book 11 of Epicurus's On Nature discussing the nature of the cosmos and how the Earth stays at the center and how the Sun rises and sets. This is after one initial pass trying to correct the translation and transcription errors. It'll need a few more passes.

It *appears* Epicurus is making the argument for why and how the Earth is a sphere and why it is immobile in the cosmos:

BOOK XI

[PHerc. 1042, supplemented by PHerc. 154: (26) Arrighetti]

[Frg. 3, 2: (26.17)]...would be encompassed¹ because of the density or scarcity of what envelops it, so as to give²...

[Column of location uncertain: (26.18)] possible to secure...firmly. For the current question, regarding exactly this thing, which is whether it is possible or completely impossible for it to happen…

86

Epicurus

Frg 1, 1: (26.19). and receive a swerve because of infinity, if at that [lac 1 mot] thousand times [lac. 25 lines approximately] (4 (26.20) to make visible the [lac. 1 word] of this one and also of this one, either sooner or later; so that the [lac. 1 word] corresponding to infinity at all…

Frg 6, 10 (26.21)] [whether infinite number of atoms] meet them, or else [atoms] of a non-infinite number. That non-infinite number of atoms meet them would be [lac. 1 word ], just like the fact that [infinite number of atoms] meet them, so that like substances possess [infinity] [lac. 2 columns approximately) (4:(26.22)] that one. But that Earth's gravity should not be feared as opposing its staying in the air, when [lac. 2 words] rare substance...

(Frg. 7, 1: (26.23)] things in our environment that have some ability to float on air and stay aloft and [lac. 30 lines or so] [2: (26.24)].. .[not this species] of angularity, but that which could belong to the primary substances [lac. 25 lines approximately] [3: (26.26)]...exerting a kind of flotation, but, as I have said before, as if the bounds and inviolable [lac. I words] provided them with some kind of protection [lac. 8 lines] drum...

[Frg. 8, 2: (26.27)] be such as to preserve what has formed as the drum section. Because some have conceived [the limits of the sky] as walls encircling the Earth, with a whirlpool like this [lac. 4 lines] movement of the stars above the head (lac. 3 lines] circular [lac. 10 lines] (3+ PHerc. 154, frg. 3, 1: (26.28)] [lac. I line] placing for this reason of all sides the circumferences before our eyes, as being analogical indices of the same [lac. I line] of the world [lac. 7 lines] and assuming that the Earth is in the middle of the [all] [lac. 15 lines] place [lac. 1 line] feet [lac. 2 lines] above the head [lac. 2 lines] say above lac. 20 lines] [4+ PHerc. 154, frg. 3.3 (26.30 -31)] in transferences, let's say, upwards; [and] what he recently had above his head, we would have, by virtue of the transference, [the impression of seeing him below] [ lac. y lines] of the Sun and the Moon] [lac. 2 lines] above [lac. 1 word] interval [lac. 25 lines] above the head [lac. 1 word] below the feet [lac. 20 ( + PHer, 154, fig. 3, 4 (26.32)] appearing to him below [under the] feet, he will not think that what he came to have, when he ascended above, to have under his feet, he had previously had above his head when he descended below. Thus, I say, because of the location of the Earth in the middle of the [lac. 1] center line [lac. 3 lines] protections [lat. 2 lines] cause the world to become round with the Earth in the middle, like (lac 2 words] the arrangement of the limbs [lac. 2 lines] do not reach [lac. 1 line] aporia [lac. 1 line] below (lat. 2 lines]. [6: (2633)] Arranging the walls in a circle in order to protect us against the whirlpool, in the belief that the whirlpool is in a position to whirl outside, they circularly rotate the stars above the heads of all men [lac. To lines] the causes...

[Frg. 9, 1: (26.34)] a firm perception concerning objective things could be acquired, when [lac. 1 line] such and such species of movement upwards or downwards [lac. 1 line] infinity [lac. 1 line] name [lac. 20 lines approximately] [2: (26.35)] of the Sun (lac. 2 words] transmitted visually becomes [lac. 25 lines] [2: (26.36)] [lac. I line] things [lac. 2 words] down [lac. 1 line] up [lac. 1 line] from the sphere we see [lac. 20 lines approximately] [3: (26.37)] lac. line] If we walk towards the place from which the Sun seemed to us] to rise, heading higher in continental zone, it seems to us to lie down where we had passed before, sometimes even when we have only moved a short distance in all. And, this time, we cannot blame it on the oblique movements. Why, after all, should you treat the estimate of the distance from here, or from there, or this from here, as a more reliable estimate of the distance from sunrises or sunsets? As a result, [Lac. 8 to 10 lines] [4 (26.38)] [they cannot hope to] form a (mental) model, nor deduce any solution on these matters.

For it seems to me that when they spend their time making a few of them - I mean their instruments and whirling themselves inside some other of those instruments. it is not surprising, considering not only the slavery which their doctrines impose on them, but also (as far as the appearances of the Sun are concerned) because of the indeterminates of its risings and its setting, that 'they cannot form a adequate mental model by means of their instruments, which produce no regularity. But their instruments are [lac. 8 to 10 lines)] [5 : (26.39) All that is left to them is pretense and forced argument, according to which the indications given by the instrument create an analogy which corresponds to what we see in the celestial regions. For someone who is in his right mind must, it seems to me, make a prior distinction: when he argues about the world and about what appears to us in the world, he is arguing about a certain image which comes from certain accidental properties of things, properties transmitted, through the medium of vision, to a process of thought or a process of memory permanently preserved by the soul itself, [communicating to it certain] quantities, qualities, [etc.] [lac. few lines] [6+ PHerc. 154, Fig. 25, 2: (26.40)] [So when, as I see, he happens to look at the thing objective and fails to distinguish between an utterance based on the object and another based on what is co perceived through the object, and that the objective thing does not give rise to multiple representations [of the world] in miniature, and even less of the world (itself), it is not surprising that he is embarrassed by the sunrises and sunsets, of which I have already spoken in connection with the Sun. For hoping, presumably, that each of the appearances [lac. about 10 lines]. [If] we do not want to attach to them the image of an inverted rising and setting, an image invented from the objective thing, we must form a mental conception of a movement of the Sun and the Moon. towards their rising and setting, and we must not say of the movement which always takes place in this way, nor of anything which moves in this way, that it occurs in the opposite direction according to the intrinsic nature of the something objective, and that, from some point of view other than our own, these things are ordered according to various different patterns. This, then, is the distinction we must make with regard to this subject.

(Frg 10, 1 + PHerc. 114, fg 21.3(26.41)] As for the props that support the Earth below, of which we say that the rare substance (lac. 4 lines] [2 + PHerc. 154 , Fig. 25, 4: (26.42) being limited by some interval, for thus the mind will understand the stability of the Earth more surely and more in harmony with sensible appearances.

89

As for the density it has below, it must be conceived in its continuity with that which it has above, so that these densities, which are good for providing a counter-support, maintain the appropriate analogical model for immobility. of the earth. For, on this account, we shall in no way be bothered by the rotation of the Sun, provided we bear in mind in how many ways each of these phenomena can be realized, and that in some cases their very equalities are the causes of the fact that they do not share [lac. 2 words] Earth [lake. 2 words] [+ PHerc. 154, fig. 26, 1: (26.43)] will need. For, being equidistant on all sides, they will not be able to weigh down in any direction. In fact, what belongs to it by virtue of the nature of the air, namely that, because it receives a similar pressure from all sides, it is on all sides equidistant from the circle which limits the world], as if he said that, being such, it rests at the center of the world (and it is not impossible either that it is such) - it is that, and not what produces that, which is the of its stability. For the pressure of the air, which is alike on all sides, has ensured equality as the strongest of the means by which, in assuring the [lac. I word] of the circle, [it caused] stable immobility [of the Earth under equal pressure... [4 + PHerc. 154, frg. 26, 2: (26.44]. it was more [convincing to say that this, namely equality, is causally responsible, rather than to say that it is the very fact of the immobility of the Earth at the center of the world which is the cause of [lac. 2 lines] being immobile; and they are sometimes in agreement with this, since they created the aerial stays because of the [lac. 2 words 307. These people there, even if by chance they have come to the correct conclusion, we should not consider them better than men who are in many matters, and in many matters completely, totally, many times better, and in some of them immeasurably ...

(Frg, 11, 1: (26.45)] For [these theories] have all perished, having been posited on the basis of their eccentric mode of connection [lac. a few lines].

ing the subject proposed at the beginning is enough for us. In what follows, in this book, therefore, what we have said concerning we will continue by providing some additional clarifications on these celestial phenomena.

Quote from Cassius

(I should have known Don was going to to straight for the "images" material!)

Just taking On Nature books in order.

I do find it interesting that Epicurus was covering images so early in his masterwork. He must have either seen it as important (like the gods being first in Menoikeus and the PDs) or fundamental to his physics.

I'm just ecstatic that the translation app worked as well as it did! Some clean up needed but overall

So, it appears Book 2 addressed the production of simulacra/images/eidolon.