Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

An Epicurean "home schooling curriculum" for young people (or for any age ) would be highly desirable and ought to be a long term goal

Hmm... I'm gonna have to push back on Cassius's comment a little there. I'm skeptical of homeschooling of any ilk. I'm sure some parents who do homeschooling can do a satisfactory job, but it always struck me as insular and isolating. School is both educational as well as social. I'm not going to sugarcoat the school experience, especially in adolescence it can be hard! But my entire family are products of a public education. We turned out okay (I think).

And Epicurus did rail against the indoctrination of his day, παιδεία. But he also taught in the Garden. No doubt to groups and individuals.

But education doesn't *stop* with formal instruction. Parents do need to be involved with their children. Encourage creativity and curiosity. Foster what brings the children pleasure. Take pleasure in seeing your children experiencing fun.

Parenting is HARD. There are times where it is a pain! But, to me, this is a classic example of experiencing pain for future pleasure. Seeing one's children grow to curious, kind adults is a pleasure.

But to wind back to Cassius, I could see a "Sunday School" curriculum being helpful. Some kind of supplemental home study. But it shouldn't necessarily be imposed on one's children. It should ideally be organic. Get them out into nature. Encourage them to use their senses. Explore! Get them to ask questions. Find evidence-based material answers. Make it fun! Make it pleasurable!

Quote from camotero

. I sort of think some of the teachings of Jesus have been stolen and changed to fit the magical and idealist thinking of religion,

Are you familiar with Thomas Jefferson's Bible editing?

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I personally was not aware of (or had forgotten) Farrington. A number of his books are on Internet Archive:

Internet Archive Search: Benjamin Farrington

I hadn't even had a chance to read the whole paper yet. I found the reference to Pythocles on p45 cited in Sedley's Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom. Then found the paper on Academia.edu.

Note the word απορία in the beginning. That's the aporia being mentioned in another thread on the forum. Hmmm... Looks like I'll have to read this whole thing.

This paper by Sedley contains some VERY interesting possible/probable biographical information of Pythocles (especially starting around p.45)...

Epicurus and the mathematicians of Cyzicus

Epicurus and the mathematicians of Cyzicus

www.academia.edu

Mentioned in the podcast:

Ibn al-Haytham - Wikipedia

Maximus Planudes - Wikipedia

Ptolemy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember back in high school (early 80s) typing a program onto cassette tapes that was the nascent version of this conversational bot in the form of a therapist. It was fascinating! Although one idiosyncrasy was that if you didn't mention your mother within a certain number of lines, they program said, "I notice you haven't mentioned your mother," taking a decidedly Freudian turn.

I saw one of the comments on the article make a good point. They said that one problem with comparing AI to humans is that humans learn from caregivers, from their environment, from society; while AIs learn from datasets as well as social media. And we're well aware of the biases and pitfalls of social media, the Internet, and datasets.

Another caveat is our old friend, "definitions." How do you define "conscious," "sentient" even "alive."

That's enough for now. Thanks for jumpstarting this.

Thanks!!

Here's the section at Perseus:

Plutarch, Non posse suaviter vivi secundum Epicurum, section 7

For what occasions transcending joy (he saith) is some great impending evil escaped; and in this lies the very nature and essence of good, if a man attain unto it aright, and contain himself when he hath done, and not ramble and prate idly about it.

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus really meant in his warning about walking around uselessly harping on the meaning of good

What is that citation? I've heard it. Just have source amnesia.

I need to read the article for its take, but - for the record - I have no problem with "tranquility." In fact, I'm coming around to the idea that ataraxia and aponia actually refer to something like homeostasis or basically just the sensation that the body and mind are working well and in-tune. One can more easily or readily experience pleasure - of all kinds - when neither the body nor the mind are troubled. And both ataraxia and aponia *are* in fact pleasure just like khara and euphrosyne. Pleasure is, by definition, good. So I think in many places in the texts where the word "good" αγαθόν is used, we can substitute "pleasure." And where ταγαθον tagathon "greatest good" is used by a number of philosophers in ancient Greece to mean "the highest good" (that good to which all other possible goods point to), Epicureans use it to refer to pleasure in the tetrapharmakos (and elsewhere, I believe).

Just checkin' the Greek:

VS32 Honoring a sage is itself a great good to the one who honors. τοῦ σοφοῦ σεβασμὸς ἀγαθὸν μέγα τῷ σεβομένῳ ἐστί.

ἀγαθὸν μέγα= agathon mega "great good"

VS28 Those who grasp after friendship and those who shrink from it are not worthy of approval; on the other hand, it is necessary to risk some pleasure for the pleasures of friendship.

οὔτε τοὺς προχείρους εἰς φιλίαν οὔτε τοὺς ὀκνηροὺς δοκιμαστέον· δεῖ δὲ καὶ παρακινδυνεῦσαι χάριν, χάριν φίλιας.

χάριν φίλιας = kharin philias "joy of friendship"

παρακινδυνεῦσαι = "necessary to risk"

PD27

That which wisdom (sophia) provides with regard to the complete/fulfilled blissful life, by far the best is the gaining of friendship.

Ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα, πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις.

ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα= holou biou marariotēta complete, blissful life"

μακαριότητα is a version of the same word in PD1 used to describe the life of the gods.

Menoikeus 130: Καὶ τὴν αὐτάρκειαν δὲ ἀγαθὸν μέγα νομίζομεν,

ἀγαθὸν μέγα = same as VS32 above

Menoikeus 132

"and so the foundation (ἀρχὴ) of all these and the greatest good (τὸ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν) is φρόνησις."

Τούτων δὲ πάντων ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν φρόνησις.

Quote from Joshua

I am doggedly pursuing a poem that I remember from college but cannot find

Can I be any help?

A brief caveat: I'd be cautious about using the word "science" to describe what was going on in ancient Greece and Rome. Science as a discipline is akin - but not necessarily identical - to the "natural philosophy" practiced by the ancient Greeks. Foundations were being laid, observations were being made, and the material world was beginning to be understood. However, we have to be careful of projecting a modern understanding of the word "science" et al. onto the ancient mindset.

Quote from Don

I'm already writing a rebuttal in my head. Here are the opening lines

Meh. Life's to short to write a rebuttal to every mediocre, ill-conceived article. The opening lines are all I'm willing to put in... That and my continuing voluminous word count on this forum

Quote from Kalosyni

I think his negative opening comment on Epicurus was because he might think that the fear of death will help motivate someone to enjoy the present moment.

I could see that, and maybe even appreciate it, if the prose wasn't so hamfisted. There might be a good article in there somewhere. I get the impression he's working under a deadline and thought "Live in the moment. Yeah, everybody loves that. I'll write a few hundred words with that."

One of my biggest annoyances with this article is that he completely misses Epicurus's intent. People live their lives fearing death and the afterlife and completely miss living their lives. We shouldn't worry about that but instead pay attention to what's happening now. "Living in the moment" is often construed to mean blocking out all else. People who really -really!- live in the present moment are miserable! The only people that only live in the present are those rare individuals who cannot form long-term memories and each moment is a new experience. They keep logs of their experiences in a diary, their only link to the past. I realize this isn't what is usually "meant" by "live in the present" but it comes off like that.

In its wider contextual meaning, "living in the moment" is exactly what Epicurus encouraged. Listen to your body. Pay attention to your feelings of pleasure and pain. Make choices and rejections now to live your fullest, most pleasurable live because this is all you have. Make plans and write wills, but don't always expect them to come to fruition or to be followed. But be prudent. You can't rely on chance or the gods.

That is a good quote, and even sounds a little Epicurean.

This article just strikes me as lazy writing. I'm already writing a rebuttal in my head. Here are the opening lines:

Arguably the most useless phrase ever uttered by pop spirituality is that we should "live in the moment." Devoid of context or further instruction, "live in the moment" is an easy throwaway line, an otherwise vacuous trope to make one sound deep without actually having to do any work in providing real, substantive, helpful advice for living.

Epicurus, on the other hand, said, "A philosopher's words are empty if they do not heal the suffering of mankind."

In your own time: how to live for today the philosophical way

What’s gone is gone, but don’t waste time worrying about that. Or on what comes next. The ideal way to age is to be in the moment

www.theguardian.com

"Arguably the most useless observation ever made by an ancient Greek philosopher – putting aside, for now, Pythagoras’s theory that fava beans contained the souls of the dead – was Epicurus’s argument that we shouldn’t fear death, because we won’t be around when it happens."

Thoughts on this article?

Mine? First blush: Surprising number of words and still mostly content-free. This is what passes for "insightful prose"??

In Greek, the word occurs in On Nature, Book 14, column 16 :

column 26

P.Herc. 1148 fr. 5

Engraved 1804-1864 by Salvatore Ventrella

ἀπορίαν̣ σ̣υνε[χῶς οὐκ ἂν]

προφέροι, κ̣α[ὶ παρασκευά-]

ζοι κούφισιν ὁ [λόγος ἡμῶν],

ὡς ἔοικε̣[ν] ἀνθρ[ώποις ̣ ̣ ̣]

5θηι [ ̣ ̣]ατα οὐκ ἂ̣[ν παρασκευ-]

άζο̣[ι ̣]ε̣ιδ[ ̣] δ̣ὴ̣ [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣] ε[ ̣]φο[ ̣]εσ̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]τη̣[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣τ]αρ̣αχ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

10[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]ρας δ[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]ε[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀπορία

IV. in Dialectic, question for discussion, difficulty, puzzle

Not related to aponia.

Aporia is related to a "not" + poros "means of passing a river, ford, ferry"

beasain Welcome aboard, and thank you very much for the introduction to yourself and how you arrived here!

Kalosyni , in another thread in the Gallery, made the important point that it depends very much on the individual UU congregation and pastor as to whether they would be open to exploring Epicureanism within their organization. Fully agree! My intent for bringing them up was that they were the only organization that came to mind that would seem to be receptive - if the interest is in exploring the "spiritual" aspects (for lack of a better term than "piety") of Epicurus's philosophy if we don't want to start from scratch.