Posts by Don

I took a look through my copy of Dewitt and he goes on and on about the Twelve Elementary Principles... But with what authority? He just states, with no citation to an actual text, things like:

The procedure was regularly from the general to the particular. The truths of Physics were reduced to Twelve Elementary Principles. These

corresponded to a general map, affording a panoramic view of the nature of things. Of the Twelve Principles the most important was the third:" The universe consists of atoms and void."

How can he state this so matter-of-factly? What is her basing this statement on? How does he know this is the third principle? Did I miss Lucretius expounding the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί? I've tried to get just twelve principles from the letter to Herodotus and it's not easily done. Without question, Epicurus wrote a work called Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί but Diogenes doesn't list it among the most important works of the philosopher. Is it a later compilation? And are we sure it's about physics as I asked in my previous post. I respect Dewitt's scholarship (mostly), but many times he flies off in flights of fancy with, from what I can see, little to back it up.

Apollo, Helios, and the Solstices in the Athenian, Delphian, and Delian Calendars

Apollo, Helios, and the Solstices in the Athenian, Delphian, and Delian Calendars

www.academia.edu

Looks like Eratosthenes did his experiment on the summer solstice:

Eratosthenes of Cyrene (article) | Khan Academy

www.khanacademy.org

Also

Ancient Greek Calendars

Ancient Greek Calendars

www.academia.edu

Adding for future reference:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Greek_and_Roman_Chronology/W_gaUJ4wjicC?hl=en

Quote from Nate

Clay also has a slightly different version in Lucretius and Epicurus, but I do not have access to it. They are essentially the same, but Clay never presents the same list in the same order twice

That's the primary problem with trying to reconstruct a lost text with NO surviving fragments. My understanding is that the ONLY reference to the "Twelve Fundamentals" is the one in Diogenes Laertius: colour varies with the arrangement of the atoms he states in his "Twelve Rudiments". Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί ; further, that they are not of any and every size ; at any rate no atom has ever been seen by our sense.

Epicurus uses στοιχεῖα in the letter to Menoikeus (123) to refer to the elements of the noble/good life: στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, στοιχεί-ωσις

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, στοιχεῖον

Without at least some fragments, there's no way to know what the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί discussed. Who knows? Epicurus could have been talking about something else and brought in the color and size of atoms to make a point about our senses. Maybe the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί were about those who say we can't trust our senses and Epicurus was laying out why we could. There's no way to know again without at least some fragments of papyrus or other references.

PS. The only reference to a "twelve" of anything in the surviving fragments of Diogenes' wall inscription is: For if the pain takes a turn for] the worse, it no longer continues severely, but the crisis comes and passes away in the shortest time; while if it is relieved, it ushers the creature to health. What then, in the name of the twelve gods, is terrible about that? Or how can we justly bring a complaint against nature, if someone who has lived for so many years and so many months and so many days [comes to his last day?]

PPS: If I'm missing a key reference or textual fragment of the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί, please don't hesitate to point me towards it! If love to be wrong about the one reference in Laertius.

Quote from Matteng

Stoic: Hero who embraces every problem / challenge.

And why do they embrace every problem or challenge?

Because it gives them pleasure to do so (not that they would admit it, of course)

Quote from camotero

very digestible.

Or "very pleasant smelling" to stay with the theme

Very interesting. It's looks like her work also includes research on the brain and mindfulness as well as the effect of emotion. Definitely want to explore.

It's like like it might be possible to run the you tube transcript through Google translate. Not the best option, but I'll explore later (unless

Welcome to the Garden, Matteng

I'll try and address a couple of your questions:

Quote from Matteng

if Pleasure involves personal values besides the "pure bodily" pleasures.

Pleasure includes both pleasure felt in the body and pleasure felt in the mind, although that's a little misleading in that all pleasure in some sense is both in the mind and body. We need both a body and mind too experience pleasure.

Quote from Matteng

I see virtue as a means to fulfill these values which give me pleasure (maybe thats the answer, a wide interpratation of pleasure ? )

The virtues (ex. justice, morality, courage, etc.) are *only* means to leading a pleasurable life. They have no value - other than that - in and off themselves. There is no such thing as "virtue for virtue's sake" in Epicurus's philosophy. The virtues do not fulfill any other purpose than as a means to a pleasurable life.

Quote from Matteng

-I am not addicted to something/someone

-value friends/familiy, progress in society,

-have compassiong for humans and animals

-love to learn new things and philosophy (like Epicurus), learning about nature, value/ like to improve abilities

If those activities provide you a sense of pleasure, that's one track then. Preface each of them with "I take pleasure in..." and see how that sounds to you.

I'll stop there and see what others may add.

Oh, and, of course, Eikadistes 's PD compilation *again* (I'll be bringing that up everytime a PD discussion comes up )

Take a look at this one too:

Principal Doctrine 10 - Epicurus Wiki

I may have to join in on this one in lieu of the 20th. Hmmm. I have some definite thoughts on PD10 and Menoikeus 131. I'll register at Eventbrite just in case I'm able to attend.

Quote from Cassius

At first glance those definitions would seem to be "positive" in the sense of "reveal" rather than hinting at illusions or error.

Or things revealed to the senses.

That's also the Greek word related to English phenomenon.

I'm looking forward to digging into this at some point. For now, several of those instances appear (no pun intended, honestly) to connect to φαίνω:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φαίνω

Stallings was my first full read through.

LOL! Well, okay... As long as you don't have any strong feelings....

I'm going to have to try to weave daedel into casual conversation this coming week.

PS. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dae…0About%20daedal

Did you want to link to Perseus (Leonard)?

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 1

Quote from Cassius

just updating the thread with the current graphic

That.

FYI

Thomas Young (American revolutionary) - Wikipedia

Quote from Nate

Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic by Matthew Stewart. It is a dense read, but very informative, and I recommend it.

Added to my Good Reads "Want to read" list! Thanks!

Quote from Cassius

Right! Supplemental home study is the main thing I was thinking about,

That's what I suspected. Nonetheless, figured I'd go off on homeschooling.

Quote from Cassius

to some extent we do make lots of choices for our children

Fully agree! When it comes to some choices we make, it's best to make it as organic as possible though. Let the children be participants instead of captives. Make the pedagogy experiential and interactive instead of the "sage on the stage."

Can never go wrong to bring up Eikadistes 's masterful compilation of the PDs:

File

KURIAI DOXAI, a Compilation of Translations by Nathan H. Bartman (2021)

This compilation contains 150 years worth of English translations of the "Key Doctrines" of Epicurus.

Eikadistes

May 3, 2024 at 11:14 PM