Posts by Don

VS48 Saint-Andre: While you are on the road, try to make the later part better than the earlier part; and be equally happy when you reach the end.

VS48 Epicurus Wiki: (We should) try [to make] the later (stretch) [better] than the earlier (one) while [we are] on (the) road (and) when [we come] to (the) end (we should) enjoy [smooth] (contentment) http://wiki.epicurism.info/Vatican_Saying_48/

πειρᾶσθαι τὴν ὑστέραν τῆς προτέρας κρείττω ποιείν, ἕως ἂν ἐν ὁδῷ ὦμεν· ἐπειδὰν δʼ ἐπὶ πέρας ἔλθωμεν, ὁμαλῶς εὐφραίνεσθαι.

My attempt at a literal translation:

Attempt to make that which comes afterwards better than that which came earlier while we are on the journey; for whenever we should come to the end, we should be equally making merry.

I like that Epicurus uses the first person plural in the verbs: We. He's including himself in the exhortation to "make each step of the journey better than the one that came before."

Key words from Greek:

- τὴν ὑστέραν - that which comes later or afterwards

- τῆς προτέρας - that which comes earlier or before

- κρείττω - Attic form of κρείσσων (showing Epicurus’s Attic upbringing)

This word has two meanings:

comparative degree of κρατύς (kratús): more powerful

comparative degree of ᾰ̓γᾰθός (agathós): better

Ᾰ̓γᾰθός throughout Epicurus’s writings, in my opinion, can in many instances be equated with “the good” which is pleasure. So, in one sense, κρείττω ποιείν could be translated as “to make better” but also, in Epicurean senses, “to make more pleasurable.”

- ἐν ὁδῷ “on α road” the last word here is ὁδός (hodos) which is literally “road” so literally “ἐν ὁδῷ = on a road” but metaphorically it can mean on a journey or even with the dative ὁδῷ more like “in a journey”. You’re not just “on” a road, you’re “within” the journey (of life).

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ὁδός

- πέρας - a word used several times by Epicurus, including in PD10 for the “limits of desires” τε τὸ πέρας τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν ; PD20 τὰ πέρατα τῆς ἡδονῆς “the limits of pleasures” ; Letter to Menoikeus 133 τῶν ἀγαθῶν πέρας "the limits/boundaries of good things (i.e., pleasure)"

- εὐφραίνεσθαι (euphrainesthai) “rejoice, be in one's element, be pleased with, delight in, enjoy oneself, exult in, joy in, take pleasure in; make merry, enjoy oneself” I believe this word has to also be connected with euphrosyne (one of the “kinetic pleasures”)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐφημ-ητικός , εὐφραίνω

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐφημ-ητικός , εὐφροσύνη

A couple interesting parallels between the Tetrapharmakos and PD11 in the Greek:

2nd line of Tetrapharmakos:

ἀνύποπτον ὁ θάνατος

Death is "free from risk" (lit., Without suspicion)

2a. ἀνύποπτος (anypoptos) LSJ: without suspicion; i.e., free from risk, “θάνατος” Phld.Sto.Herc.339.4.

PD11 (beginning...)

Εἰ μηθὲν ἡμᾶς αἱ τῶν μετεώρων ὑποψίαι ἠνώχλουν καὶ αἱ περὶ θανάτου,...

If our *suspicions* about astronomical phenomena and about death were nothing to us and troubled us not at all,

ὑποψίαι

1. suspicion, jealousy, ὑποψίην ἔχειν ἔς τινα Hdt., attic; πρός τινα Dem.; ἐν ὑπ. ποιεῖσθαι Aeschin.

2. of the object, ἔχειν ὑπ. to admit of suspicion, Plat.; ὑπ. παρέχειν Thuc.

ἀνύποπτος (anypoptos) and ὑποψίαι (hypopsiai)

are related to each other.

Other related terms:

ύποπτος m (ýpoptos, “suspect”)

ύποπτη f (ýpopti, “suspect”)

ύποπτος (ýpoptos, “suspect”) (adjective)

υποπτεύομαι (ypoptévomai, “to suspect”)

Isonomia reference...

Quote from Cassius

the term is today more associated with a Cyreniac "pleasure of the moment" attitude.

The phrase itself is inextricable linked to Bentham and Utilitarianism. While Cassius is correct that neither Epicurus nor the Epicureans used the specific phrase "hedonic calculus," he did - all the time - use "choice and rejection" αἵρεσιν καὶ φυγὴν. So, in some ways, one is always weighing pain and pleasure and choosing and rejecting. That is, generally speaking, a kind of "calculus." Just don't get overly hung up on the term

Quote from Cassius

The Frying pan might be hot, but if that frying pan is suspending you over the grand canyon you might be well advised to stay in the frying pan til you've figured out a way to arrange a soft landing.

Good wordsmithing there. Vivid metaphor

I think you're generally on the right track, Mathitis Kipouros . Thanks for sharing this.

Is the only extant use of isonomia from Epicurus The mention in Cicero:

Quote

Moreover there is the supremely potent principle of infinity, which claims the closest and most careful study; we must understand that it has the following property, that in the sum of things everything has its exact match and counterpart. This property is termed by Epicurus isonomia, or the principle of uniform distribution. From this principle it follows that if the whole number of mortals be so many, there must exist no less a number of immortals, and if the causes of destruction are beyond count, the causes of conservation also are bound to be infinite.

That's it? And isonomia is defined as, by Cicero, "in the sum of things everything has its exact match and counterpart." According to the LSJ Greek dictionary, isonomia is cited as occurring in Epicurus Usener Fragment 352, which is Cicero's reference. And is it really Epicurus or is it just Cicero that goes off on "it follows that .." Is isonomia just Epicurus saying "no one thing of its kind"? I could see "its exact match and counterpart" as referring to something like that idea. I'll definitely want to dive into Academia.edu or JSTOR for some papers.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἰσονομ-ία

Quote from Cassius

1077] This there is too that in the universe there is nothing single, nothing born unique and growing unique and alone, but it is always of some tribe, and there are many things in the same race. First of all turn your mind to living creatures; you will find that in this wise is begotten the race of wild beasts that haunts the mountains, in this wise the stock of men, in this wise again the dumb herds of scaly fishes, and all the bodies of flying fowls. Wherefore you must confess in the same way that sky and earth and sun, moon, sea, and all else that exists, are not unique, but rather of number numberless; inasmuch as the deep-fixed boundary-stone of life awaits these as surely, and they are just as much of a body that has birth, as every race which is here on earth, abounding in things after its kind.

This only means that there is never just one elephant, one human, one kosmos created in the universe. There is always a herd of elephants, a tribe of humans, an infinity of kosmoi. There is never a single solitary thing by itself. Things or beings are always part of a larger group. You don't have unique one of a kind things popping into existence.

FYI:

The word used in 134 is δουλεύειν "to be enslaved", related to δούλος "one who is enslaved" (Note: keeping up the metaphor started with the mistress/master idioms in the previous verse)

134: "Since it is better to follow the fictional story of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δ , δουλα^γωγ-ία , δουλ-εύω

Quote from Root304

the idea of an Epicurean Soul to mean the total package of human experience; our context, emotional and sensory depth, our passions and interests, our challenges, our relationship to ideas and people, our broadening and changing understanding as we journey through life, our histories and our relationship to that history and the core memories that shaped us.

I'd say that one... with the caveat that "soul" does NOT imply something that can exist outside the "meatsuit". The ψυχή psykhē / psyche is inextricably part of our physical, material, atomic makeup.

Final (LOL ) thought on PD10: I think PD10 is a direct refutation of the Cyrenaic position on pleasure. Epicurus and the Garden were getting painted with the same brush as them, and this is a firm statement that "We are NOT Cyrenaics".

Quote from Kalosyni

Thank you Don for your translation of the PD last night, I don't know if we have your translation on the forum somewhere?

Oh, I didn't translate the PD, just the letter. That's in my document to download on the Letter to Menoikeus.

Quote from Kalosyni

Imagine in Epicurus' time, that he was surrounded on all sides by people who believed in the myths and the power of the gods. I can see why he would continue to participate in the rituals for several reasons: 1) because there was pleasure in the festivals, and 2) he would have gotten a lot flak from everyone around him (non-Epicureans) if he hadn't participated in the rituals

I would add a third choice: I am coming to believe that one reason Epicurus took pleasure in the rites, festivals, sacrifices, etc. was that he intellectually recontextualized (sorry, neologism there?) them to coincide with his philosophy of the gods. As Lucretius talks about saying "Dionysus" but actually meaning "wine," Mother Earth but meaning the fertile, productive powers of the natural world. *If* that is the basis for ritual, I don't see any problem. Especially since there groups like Hellenion are trying to resurrect a Greek-inspired practice:

Hellenion

Quote from Cassius

In the music, does it have words to it? There is lots of religious music I like but would choke on the words that accompany it.

LOL... That's why I did this: https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/index.php?…wall/comment196

That was fun! I hope I didn't monopolize the conversation. Here are a couple links I mentioned:

Podium-Arts

Spoken Ancient Greek; texts in reconstructed pronunciation. For learning or enjoyment. Samples of audiobooks (most of which are for sale on www.ancientgreek.eu…

youtube.com

ScorpioMartianus

Spoken Latin videos by Luke Amadeus Ranieri. 🤠🦂 Topics & tags: Latin Language Lessons for beginners, Latin Language, Classical Latin, Ecclesiastical…

youtube.com

(See his Ancient Greek in Action playlist especially)

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK X, EPICURUS (341-271 B.C.)

Are you coming back?

Imma gonna do my best to be there tonight, so be ready to cross reference PD10 with Menoikeus 131 including the ancient Greek.

Yeah, I've used a provocative title, but it's a fascinating video. Science!:

I don't think it's what you're referring to, Godfrey , but, if I remember, the smallest size anything can be is the Planck length:

The Planck scale: relativity meets quantum mechanics meets gravity. (from Einstein Light)

This is a fascinating thread of this conversation. Thanks for starting it, SimonC

I am still gobsmacked by that photo... even after three years.

Here's a larger image link from Reddit: https://i.redd.it/ib66b4sje7e31.jpg

I also think ya'll are on the right track with the lines of reasoning, too, about why we don't have basketball sized atomoi or why we can't see them.

That photo is exactly where I was heading, Eikadistes . Thanks for posting!

Okay, since I couldn't find anything in DeWitt or in Clay to satisfy me, I went through and picked out ALL of the uses of the word στοιχεῖον (as in Δώδεκα στοιχείωσις) and its variations within Diogenes Laertius, Book X. It's used 5 times within the letter to Herodotus (the most within Book X). I've included both the Greek and English (Hicks) from the Perseus Project below for everyone's inspection. Unfortunately, I have not had time (nor do I plan to take the time!) to go and search within Philodemus or the extant On Nature fragments. Sorry. Life is too short

(30) Canonic forms the introduction to the system and is contained in a single work entitled The Canon. The physical part includes the entire theory of Nature : it is contained in the thirty-seven books Of Nature and, **in a summary form, in the letters.** (**καὶ ταῖς ἐπιστολαῖς κατὰ στοιχεῖον**)

The usual arrangement, however, is to conjoin canonic with physics, and the former they call the science which deals with **the standard and the first principle, or ***the elementary part*** of philosophy (περὶ κριτηρίου (kriteriou) καὶ ἀρχῆς (arkhes), καὶ ***στοιχειωτικόν (stoikheiotikon)***), while physics proper, they say, deals with becoming and perishing and with nature.

(34) They affirm that there are two states of feeling, pleasure and pain, which arise in every animate being, and that the one is favourable and the other hostile to that being, and by their means choice and avoidance are determined; and that there are two kinds of inquiry, the one concerned with things, the other with nothing but words.So much, then, for his division and **criterion in their main outline**. (καὶ τοῦ κριτηρίου στοιχειωδῶς.)

From the Letter to Herodotus:

(35) Those who have made some advance in the survey of the entire system ought to fix in their minds **under the principal headings an *elementary outline* of the whole treatment of the subject** (ἐν τῇ τῶν ὅλων ἐπιβλέψει τὸν τύπον τῆς ὅλης πραγματείας τὸν *κατεστοιχειωμένον*). For a comprehensive view is often required, the details but seldom.

(36) ...since it is the privilege of the mature student to make a ready use of his conceptions by referring every one of them to ***elementary facts and simple terms** (πρὸς ἁπλᾶ στοιχειώματα καὶ φωνὰς (apla phonas "simple terms")).

(37) Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this, have prepared for you just such **an epitome *and manual* of the doctrines as a whole** (τινὰ ἐπιτομὴν (epitome) *καὶ στοιχείωσιν* τῶν ὅλων δοξῶν).

(44) But that colour varies with the arrangement of the atoms he states in his "Twelve Rudiments" (τὸ δὲ χρῶμα παρὰ τὴν θέσιν τῶν ἀτόμων ἀλλάττεσθαι ἐν ταῖς Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί φησι.)

(47) For if it changed its direction, that would be equivalent to its meeting with resistance, even if up to that point we allow nothing to impede the rate of its flight. **This is an *elementary fact* which in itself is well worth bearing in mind.** (χρήσιμον δὴ καὶ τοῦτο κατασχεῖν *τὸ στοιχεῖον*.) (NOTE: This is the one mention that gets close to stating this is one of the elements: Something like "Atoms don't change their direction or speed"??)

From Letter to Pythocles:

(86) We do not seek to wrest by force what is impossible, nor to understand all matters equally well, nor make our treatment always as clear as when we discuss human life or explain the principles of physics in general--for instance, that the whole of being consists of bodies and intangible nature, or **that *the ultimate elements of things* are indivisible** (ὅτι ἄτομα *<τὰ> στοιχεῖα*), or any other proposition which admits only one explanation of the phenomena to be possible.

From Letter to Menoikeus:

(123) Those things which without ceasing I have declared unto thee, those do, and exercise thyself therein, holding them to be ** *the elements* of right life**.(στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν)

Clay says "His (Epicurus's) language makes it plain that he regarded the nine propositions set out earlier in the letter as stoicheia... "kai de touto" looks back to the stoicheiomata and their usefulness." I'm still unclear on how Clay is slicing the Letter to Herodotus to come up with only nine stoicheiomata, and the number is clearly 12 "elements." So, why would Epicurus only include 9?

I *think* I'm willing to accept that the Δώδεκα στοιχείωσις *probably* referred to the physics of Epicurus, BUT in Section 30, Diogenes Laertius specifically talks about Canonic being the στοιχεῖον... So, again, as I did earlier, I ask: Did the Twelve Elements refer to the atoms, void, physics stuff or did it refer back to the use of the senses within the canonic? Both DeWitt and Clay seem too self-assured for my full endorsement of their lists.

And I see what Clay was trying to do, I think, in calling the article after Epicurus's will. He's trying to say that even though Hermarchus is his philosophical heir, it is actually Lucretius who ends up being his "heir" because we get Lucretius's whole poem to carry on Epicurus's philosophy. Yeah, that's a little arcane.

Thoughts welcome!!