Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

the well-known "Captain Kirk" alternative of changing the rules of the game rather than giving in to defeat without every last possible exertion.

Ah, the Kobayashi Maru...

Kobayashi Maru - Wikipedia

Quote from Cassius

Also to the tiger example, and Epicurean might say: "What the heck are you doing hanging out around cliffs where tigers are everywhere?

Well, if you live somewhere where tigers are an actual not uncommon danger (which is I believe the origin of this story), you don't really get a choice of hanging around where tigers are a danger. You're already there.

(I realize your comment was mostly tongue in cheek, but just saying.)

Quote from Cassius

But in most cases, even if you were actually on the Titanic, I think it would make the most sense to use every second...

In these contexts, I harken back to a Tibetan Buddhist saying:

Quote

If you were to fall to your death from a very great height it would be a shame not to enjoy the view as you fell, or to appreciate the wind in your hair or warmth of the sun on your face.

So, yes, if there's a chance of survival, work on surviving. If you fall out of an airplane, squeeze the last iota of pleasure from your life.

Welcome aboard, DavidN !

I wanted to note - even though we all know it, it bears repeating - that Epicurueanism was over well over 300 years old when Christianity was just beginning to be established:

In around 311 BC, Epicurus, when he was around thirty years old, began teaching in Mytilene. (Wikipedia)

Jesus' ministry ended around 30 CE. Paul's conversion is around the same time. Epicurus started teaching around 311 BCE... Over 340 prior to the beginnings of Christianity.

In light of that, I just want to say that - for me - it's only makes sense if the flow of similarities flows from Epicurueanism to Christianity. Just like Christmas, Easter, building churches on ground holy to existing faiths. Just like one theory of mine that the church of St George in the Kerameikos district in Athens is built on top of the Garden. That's just a theory of mine, not currently backed up by anything other than a hunch. If there are similarities, it's because the Garden was seen as a threat, and the followers of Christ stole from it to make their religion more popular. Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.

Quote from Kalosyni

The current understanding of the word "saviour" comes to us by the Christian faith in Jesus being eternal/immortal and all powerful. I would doubt Epicureans felt that way about Epicurus.

I would agree that the Epicurueans didn't see Epicurus as *that* kind of savior, but I have no problem thinking they saw him as a savior figure. He literally saved humanity from ignorance and fear. One doesn't have to be immortal or omnipotent to be a saviour. It was also a popular epithet for gods and heroes:

Soter - Wikipedia

PS:

Early AD 121 – Plotina writes to Hadrian on behalf of the Epicurean school in Athens (#Hadrian1900) FOLLOWING HADRIAN

In the early year of AD 121, Pompeia Plotina, the greatly respected widow of the emperor Trajan, sent Hadrian a letter asking him to help the Epicurean school…

followinghadrian.com

both the preservation of the dignity of that place which contains the (…) will be firmly secures and equally the opinion concerning the successor of our saviour, which… when… became master of the school, since Epicurus…

Saviour in her letter is ΣΩΤΗΡ:

Fourth line from the bottom on the right.

PS: That word is in the phrase ΚΑΘΗΓΕΜΟΝΙΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΣΩΤΗΡ which is kathēgemonias which I'm assuming the translator gives as "successor" but it is similar (identical?) to the terms used in DeWitt and elsewhere to refer to the teachers of the Garden.

Thanks for these references, Eikadistes .

For anyone who's interested...

52. Friendship dances around the world, announcing to each of us that we must awaken to happiness.

ἡ φιλία περιχορεύει τὴν οἰκουμένην κηρύττουσα δὴ πᾶσιν ἡμῖν ἐγείρεσθαι ἐπὶ τὸν μακαρισμόν.

κηρύττω Attic form of κηρῠ́σσω

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κηρύσσω

G2784 - kēryssō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2784 - κηρύσσω kērýssō, kay-roos'-so; of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):—preacher(-er), proclaim,…

www.blueletterbible.org

Also note:

ἐγείρεσθαι (middle/passive infinitive) "to wake, keep watch; to rouse oneself, be excited"

μακαρισμόν. Note that those is the exact word used to describe the gods. "Happiness" is a little underwhelming here. In fact, friendship dances round the known world (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…try=oi)koume/nh) heralding to each and every one of us to awaken to the blessed life of the gods.

@Root304 , *that* would be an interesting exercise. The Greek gods were just as supernatural as the Christian god and theology is, and as embedded in the modern culture. The omnipresent cultural milieu in the US and other nations is Christianity.

"lighten my own ill-feelings" Good luck with that... And I'm not trying to be sarcastic or tongue in cheek. Honestly, that's not necessarily easy (speaking from personal experience).

But an Epicurean reimagining or mental approach to the cultural gods could be an interesting discussion

Quote from Cassius

OK I recognize that the circles in the diagram above don't intersect, so maybe it's not really a Venn diagram.

Okay, done! That was fun! I didn't do Plato since Joshua did a good job above.

Enjoy!

Nausiphanes:

‘The mollusk,’ πλεύμονά (pleumona "lung-fish, jellyfish"> related etymologically to English "pleurisy")

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πλεύμων

Hicks note: Cf. Sext. Emp. Adv. math. i. 3 νῦν πλεύμον α καλῶν τὸν Ναυσιφ άνην ὡς ἀναίσθ ητον; Plato, Phil. 21 c ζῆν δὲ οὐκ ἀνθρώπο υ βίον ἀλλά τινος πλεύμον ος; Hesychius, s.v. ; whence it appears that obtuseness and insensibility, not weakness or pliability, were the qualities imputed by this term.

‘The illiterate,’ ἀγράμματον (agrammaton)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀγράμμ-α^τος

Don note: It's an even better insult than simply "illiterate" because one connotation is "of animals, unable to utter articulate sounds."

‘The cheat,’ ἀπατεῶνα (apateōna "a cheat, rogue, quack.")

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀπα^τ-εών

Don note: Follow that LSJ link for some other uses of the term in Hippocrates, Plato, and Xenophon

‘The harlot.’ πόρνην (pornēn, related to English "pornography.")

Don note: The pornai were at the bottom of the ancient Greek social structure, always slaves living at the whim of pimps. There is a solid article on "Prostitution in ancient Greece" on Wikipedia that is heartbreaking (and graphic, NSFW). The recent fiction book "The Wolf Den" by Elodie Harper does an excellent job in portraying the lives of the women enslaved in the (excavated) brothel in Pompeii.

Aristotle:

‘The debauchee,' ἄσωτον (asōton)

Don note: It's very important to realize that this is the *exact* same word Epicurus used in describing the pleasure of the *profligate/prodigal* in the letter to Menoikeus: "Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal..." I highly recommend people taking a look at verse 131 in my Letter to Menoikeus translation at

File

Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary

An in-depth translation and commentary of Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus.

Don

July 19, 2023 at 11:25 PM

he devoured his inheritance and then enlisted and sold drugs.

καταφαγόντα τὴν πατρῴαν οὐσίαν (kataphagonta "eat up, devour" the last part is the English suffix "-phage")

στρατεύεσθαι (strateuesthai "serve/enlist/email in the army")

φαρμακοπωλεῖν (pharmakopōlein LSJ "to be druggist"; a dealer in drugs)

Protagoras:

‘Porter’ φορμοφόρον (phormorphoron "porter", also name of a play by Hermippus)

Hermippus - Wikipedia

Related https://kaikki.org/dictionary/Anc…F%8C%CF%82.html

‘Copier of Democritus,’ γραφέα (graphea, "private secretary, copyist, scribe") Δημοκρίτου (Demokritou)

he taught in the village schools. ἐν κώμαις γράμματα διδάσκειν

Heraclitus:

‘The Muddler,’ κυκητὴν (kykētēn, LSJ "stirrer, agitator") from κῠκᾰ́ω "to stir up, mix; to stir up, throw into confusion, confound"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κυ^κ-άω

Democritus:

Lerocritus (‘judge of nonsense’)

Ληρόκριτον (Lērokriton, kriton "judge, see English "critic")

λῆρος "silly talk, nonsense, trumpery, Ar.:—of persons, nonsense, a trifler, Plat.; λῆροι λεπτότατοι, of sophists, Ar.; as an exclamation, λῆρος, nonsense! humbug! id=Ar."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λῆρος

Don note: I'm curious of the context of this one. Is Democritus "judging nonsense" or is he a "silly-talking judge". I could see Lerocritus being positive under one context and an insult under another. Context is everything here. Hicks translates it "the nonsense-monger". I don't see the sense of monger or dealer or trader in nonsense in the -kriton part

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κρι^τ-ής

So I wish we knew from where Diogenes got that reference.

Antidorus: Ἀντίδωρον

Sannidorus (‘Maniac’) Σαννίδωρον (Sannidorōn .. Sannidorus)

Don note: My bet is that the name is a play on Antidorus' name itself: Ἀντίδωρον so Σαννίδωρον. His name itself literally means return-gift "anti-gift" so the job would be what does Σαννί- refer to. What kind of "gift" is Epicurus word-playing here? σᾰ́ννᾱς is "zany, fool, buffoon" but also σάννιον "membrum virile, Eup.440" which reminds me in this context of a now-classic Saturday Night Live skit with Justin Timberlake. Enough said on that.

This Antidorus must be:

Antidorus of Cyme - Wikipedia

the Cynics:

‘Enemies of Hellas,’ ἐχθροὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος (ekhthrous tēs Hellados ("Greece/Hellas")

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐχθρός

Don note: I found this connotation interesting in that definition: "ἐχθρός is one who has been φίλος ("friend"), but is alienated." It's still "enemies" but provides a shade of meaning.

the Logicians: διαλεκτικοὺς (dialektikous, specifically those skilled in dialectic)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, διαλεκτ-ικός

‘The destroyers,’ πολυφθόρους (polyphthorous, "destroying many (poly-), fraught with death"

Pyrrho:

‘The uneducated fool.’

Don note: It's actually two words: ἀμαθῆ καὶ (&) ἀπαίδευτον. Hicks: "ignorant boor"

ἀμαθῆ (amathē, "ignorant, stupid") but see LSJ for some intriguing alternative connotations

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀμαθ-ής

ἀπαίδευτον apaideuton, literally means uneducated (paidaea)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀπαίδ-ευτος

Quote from Don

You know I'm going to post the original Greek for all these at some point, right?

As promised too long ago:

Diogenes Laertius, Book X.8:

[8] καὶ αὐτὸν Ἐπίκουρον ἐν ταῖς ἐπιστολαῖς περὶ Ναυσιφάνους λέγειν: "Ταῦτα ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν εἰς ἔκστασιν τοιαύτην, ὥστε μοι λοιδορεῖσθαι καὶ ἀποκαλεῖν διδάσκαλον." πλεύμονά τε αὐτὸν ἐκάλει καὶ ἀγράμματον καὶ ἀπατεῶνα καὶ πόρνην: τούς τε περὶ Πλάτωνα Διονυσοκόλακας καὶ αὐτὸν Πλάτωνα χρυσοῦν, καὶ Ἀριστοτέλη ἄσωτον, <ὃν> καταφαγόντα τὴν πατρῴαν οὐσίαν στρατεύεσθαι καὶ φαρμακοπωλεῖν: φορμοφόρον τε Πρωταγόραν καὶ γραφέα Δημοκρίτου καὶ ἐν κώμαις γράμματα διδάσκειν: Ἡράκλειτόν τε κυκητὴν καὶ Δημόκριτον Ληρόκριτον καὶ Ἀντίδωρον Σαννίδωρον: τούς τε Κυνικοὺς ἐχθροὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος: καὶ τοὺς διαλεκτικοὺς πολυφθόρους, Πύρρωνα δ᾽ ἀμαθῆ καὶ ἀπαίδευτον.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, Ι, ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΟΣ

Step one, Check.

The parsing will have to wait

@Root304 , I'll admit I was unfamiliar with the topics you mentioned. At the risk of simplifying things, for myself and others, here are relevant Wikipedia articles:

Internal Family Systems Model - Wikipedia

Somatics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please feel free to tell me if these are off the mark!

My sense is that anything that truly and honestly makes us more aware of our bodies, our reactions to stimuli, and our feelings of pleasure and pain will make us more able to apply the faculty of choice and rejection. That's a good thing. I get the impression that we all try to lie to ourselves and try to make ourselves believe and/or behave in ways counter to our well-being (eudaimonia) all too often. That's what I believe one of the benefits of the practice of frank speech and correction in the ancient Epicurean community was. You may fool yourself, but you can't necessarily fool your friends or your teacher. You have to be open to correction and direction. Being able to do this yourself would be a boon.

I look forward to hearing more and hope this was helpful.

PS. This is also where the work of Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett and others comes in, too. Cultivating our sense of interoception allows us to listen closer to our body's signals. I'd suggest checking out her books as well.

@Root304 , I initially joined the forum seriously intending to simply read and learn. I found myself intrigued and curious. Now, I can't shut up. I hope you'll find some encouragement in that to ask questions and be active on the forum. Welcome.

To me, this looks like another endorsement for the Tetrapharmakos as a *very* abridged summary of the philosophy since that is just an abridgement of PD1 through PD4. Just sayin'

Well said! Thanks for this.
I especially like this...

Quote from EricR

I have found that a genuine feeling of gratitude does not depend on knowing its source. Gratefulness is its own reward as it can neutralize poisons like resentment, envy, jealousy, etc. It has to be genuine though and only the individual can ever know whether it is or not.

Quote from EricR

I personally am quite comfortable with a supernatural god being invoked if it draws someone's attention to gratitude. I don't know what may or may not lay beyond, but I do know that being grateful for my days promotes a happier time here. I realize that is anathema to this site, but I gotta be me!

I can understand where you're coming from on that, and Epicurean philosophy certainly makes room for "gods" as everyone knows from the long threads on this site. However, Steindl-Rast - a Christian monk - successfully demonstrates that we can be grateful without bringing in God/god.

From my perspective, one danger of seeing a supernatural god/God as the recipient of gratitude sets up the possibility that thinking God/god can decide to take it away, to punish one for not being grateful to him/her. I think it's better to be grateful to "blessed Nature" or better other people and leave out the divine middleman.

That said, of course, I respect your right for you to be you

Spot on, EricR . Thank you for that. Ευχαριστώ.

I would note, too, that there was no invocation of a supernatural god in that video. Just be grateful for the day and the experience of life and nature and our fellow human beings.

Fragment 469. Praise be to blessed Nature: she has made what is necessary easy to get, and what is not easy to get unnecessary. χάρις τῇ μακαρίᾳ φύσει ὅτι τὰ ἀναγκαῖα ἐποίησεν εὐπόριστα, τὰ δὲ δυσπόριστα οὐκ ἀναγκαῖα.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χάρις

Sorry, I can't let this go now.

I do see that all three words could be parsed as being in the accusative case: αὐτὸν Πλάτωνα χρυσοῦν but I'm still not convinced that χρυσουν has to be parsed that way but that could just be due to my ignorance. Regardless, I think Joshua has brought up some interesting connotations of "golden" whether or not we're looking at an accusative case noun or a participle.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρύσεος

Socrates is still a jerk btw.

Forgot to add

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χρυ_σόω

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - χρυσόω - to gild (v.)

Look at Joshua parsing the Greek! That makes me so happy!! (It's kind of fun, isn't it?)

At first read, I don't see anything wrong with your parsing of χρυσοῦν. Here's the Wiktionary entry for the Attic form of χρῡ́σεος

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=χρυσοῦς&oldid=55002924

But if it's from χρυσόω, the present active neuter participle would be χρυσοῦν with the same circumflex over the upsilon. So you're spot on there from my meager knowledge.

Joshua 's analogy of "flat" Plato to "gold-leaf, gilded' Plato is intriguing! Gold leaf is really flatter than flat. It's barely there.

Another possible source *could* be, since we're blue-skying it - or even a complement to Joshua's idea - is that Plato just gilded himself with his teacher Socrates' ideas or used Socrates to gild his own ideas.

Since it would be a present active neuter participle, it would probably be translated as "Gilding" I think, so "Gilding Plato"? The one who is gilding? "... And Plato himself gilding." Even so, no matter how that sentence is parsed, the χρυσοῦν < χρυσόω option raises some intriguing possibilities!

Thanks for the food for thought!! Great job!

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Epicurus gets at what her looked like writing to Menoikeus.

Do you think it's safe to presume that letter was written soon after arrival in Athens?

I know people say the style is different and we can presume something from that, but frankly I'm not sure how to interpret that.

Safe as any literary critical analysis. My main point was simply to urge us to remember that Epicurus was a living, breathing human being who lived a full life from youngster with his parents through old age.