Posts by Don

LOL! That is one HAPPY pig!

Quote from Cassius

"pink" includes all shades of pink

I like that, too.

So, by definition: "Pleasure" includes all shades of pleasure in this analysis (which I think is the right one).

Which then follows on that where there is pleasure, there is not pain.

So, it's not the "removal of pain" that is the focus - as some commentators (and academics) want to do. The addition of pleasure *IS* the removal of pain ONLY because the two can't co-exist. Where there is pleasure, there is not pain. It is the addition of more pleasure - putting the focus on pleasure - that makes a statement the following possible...

Quote from Cassius

Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.

Bah! I'm just prattling on like Epicurus at the end of Book 28!   reneliza did a much better job and was much more succinct!

reneliza I think you're analysis is spot on and well articulated.

accident | Etymology, origin and meaning of accident by etymonline

ACCIDENT Meaning: "an occurrence, incident, event; what comes by chance," from Old French accident (12c.), from Latin… See definitions of accident.

www.etymonline.com

accidence | Etymology, origin and meaning of accidence by etymonline

ACCIDENCE Meaning: "non-essential or incidental characteristic," also "part of grammar dealing with inflection" (mid-15c.),… See definitions of accidence.

www.etymonline.com

Definition of ACCIDENT

an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance; lack of intention or necessity : chance; an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or…

www.merriam-webster.com

3. : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance

the accident of nationality

Quote from Cassius

Lucian is a tremendous source of information.

And fun to read! (not belly laughing funny maybe, but I've gotten a chuckle out of him on numerous occasions as well as "Ha! Good one" too. He certainly didn't suffer fools or look kindly on pomposity.)

Lucian: Sale of Philosophers

19

Her. What name?

Fifth D. Dion; of Syracuse.

Her. Take him, and much good may he do you. Now I want Epicureanism. Who offers for Epicureanism? He is a disciple of the laughing creed and the drunken creed, whom we were offering just now. But he has one extra accomplishment — impiety. For the rest, a dainty, lickerish creed.

Sixth D. What price?

Her. Eight pounds.

Sixth D. Here you are. By the way, you might let me know what he likes to eat.

Her. Anything sweet. Anything with honey in it. Dried figs are his favourite dish.

Sixth D. That is all right. We will get in a supply of Carian fig-cakes.

Sale of Creeds | Vitarum auctio [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

Although this is interesting and maybe completely irrelevant:

Chrysippus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He died during the 143rd Olympiad (208–204 BC) at the age of 73. Diogenes Laërtius gives two different accounts of his death. In the first account, Chrysippus was seized with dizziness having drunk undiluted wine at a feast, and died soon after. In the second account, he was watching a donkey eat some figs and cried out: "Now give the donkey a drink of pure wine to wash down the figs", whereupon he died in a fit of laughter. His nephew Aristocreon erected a statue in his honour in the Kerameikos. Chrysippus was succeeded as head of the Stoic school by his pupil Zeno of Tarsus.

47. One of Alexander's acts in this connection was most comical. Hitting upon the "Established Beliefs" of Epicurus, which is the finest of his books, as you know, and contains in summary the articles of the man's philosophic creed,37 he brought it into the middle of the market-place, burned it on fagots of fig-wood just as if he were burning the man in person, and threw the ashes into the sea, even adding an oracle also:

"Burn with fire, I command you, the creed of a purblind dotard!"

But the scoundrel had no idea what blessings that book creates for its readers and what peace, tranquillity, and freedom it engenders in them, liberating them as it does from terrors and apparitions and portents, from vain hopes and extravagant cravings, developing in them intelligence and truth, and truly purifying their understanding, not with torches and squills and that sort of foolery, but with straight thinking, truthfulness and frankness.

Lucian of Samosata : Alexander the False Prophet

I don't see anything about "favorite food."

PS. Just to be clear: that reference to "Established Beliefs" *is* the Principal Doctrines or kyriai doxai

Lucian, Alexander, section 47

Have something on this for later.

What's the other "shout" or triumph-song passage in the texts?

Quote from Cassius

So do we think that the heads were affixed to full bodies either seated or standing?

Having the heads mounted on a column-like structure in th middle of a room is one thing but two full figures either sitting or standing would seem possibly a different matter

No, it's also my understanding that the plinth/block was intended as the mode of display.

Quote from Cassius

What about the hole in the sides?

To the best of my knowledge, those were where arms could be attached.

How to become more grateful, and why that will make you happier, healthier and more resilient

How to become more grateful, and why that will make you happier, healthier and more resilient | CNN

www.cnn.com

Epicurean context (selections):

VS17 It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of.

VS19 He who forgets the good things he had yesterday becomes an old man today.

VS35 Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for.

VS55 Misfortune must be cured through gratitude for what has been lost and the knowledge that it is impossible to change what has happened.

Quote from Kalosyni

our current modern cultural understanding of the word "pleasure" is very narrow.

I wonder if that's a problem with the word or with the current cultural understanding. Personally, I'd say the latter. For me, putting "pleasure" in the context of "pleasure/pain" is helpful in getting past the semantic baggage of conceiving "pleasure" as simply a "hedonistic" elated feeling. Pleasure encompasses everything we feel that isn't painful or causes us pain. "Simple" as that. That's why Epicurus could claim (and rightly from my perspective) that homeostasis and equilibrium are pleasurable.

Quote from Don

I've always thought a clip of just Epicurus's eyes from one of the famous portraits or busts sandwiched between

SFO

(eyes)

TSE

would make an interesting Tshirt design with small print of Sic fac omnia tamquam spectet Epicurus on top and Do all things as if Epicurus were watching one the bottom

Then EpicurueanFriends.com on the back?

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A VERY ROUGH draft of the idea using a public domain image.

Hmm... I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, although it wouldn't be the first time we've talked past each other. So I'll prattle on myself.

When I read "X is the product of war" I read that as "War is necessary for X."

I yhink I understand what you're saying about ALWAYS and CAN BE, but I read that as making it possible to say, "I want to feel pleasure so I'll go to war." or "War gives me pleasure."

Some people may feel pleasurable feelings while fighting a war, but, overall, I would have to posit that war is not a choice-worthy source of pleasure because you are putting yourself in danger of being killed and other - let's say - hazards. And, yes, I'm judging whether someone's pursuit of pleasure is choiceworthy or not in this case. I think I have precedent for that from Epicurus himself.

Even on the side of the one who does not choose war but has war thrust upon them, war does not "produce" pleasure. Here's how I'm playing out that scenario in my head (Oh, save me Zeus! I'm going down the road of hypotheticals!!!)

• Let's say my life is stable, comfortable, overall pleasurable with episodes now and again of pain.
• Something happens and I have to defend my home and family from hostile forces... I'm now in a war.
• My life is now unstable, dangerous, with an overall abundance of pain with small episodes of pleasure.
• I am fighting a war to return peace and stability to my life so I can again have a life that is stable, comfortable, and has more pleasure than pain. I did not choose to fight this war, but I now have no choice but to engage in war.
• My side wins the war. I can piece my life back together hopefully and find more pleasure than pain in my existence.

So, given this scenario, I would not say the "pleasure" I feel after the war is a "product" of the war. I felt pleasure for fleeting moments while fighting the war. I will hopefully feel more pleasure as a result of the absence of conflict and a return to peace and stability. But the war did not "produce" pleasure. It may have created an environment conducive to experiencing feelings of pleasure more likely, but I'm just having problems with that phrasing of produce and product.

PS. I reread Cassius 's post in the light of morning and pulled this out:

Quote

The test is always in the consequences, because if a thing in fact generates any degree of pleasure, it is pleasurable at least for that moment. Maybe not a wise idea at all, but the proof of whether any pleasure is generated is in the actual result for the time that pleasure is generated, rather than all the ultimate consequences of pain which may or may not occur later.

I think we're saying similar things here and in my paragraph that starts "Some people may feel pleasurable feelings while fighting a war..." Here I'm thinking of mercenaries and those who feel pleasure in the sense of power (I'm assuming) they feel engaging in battle. Maybe even those who are "fighting for a cause" although this latter may fall in my bullet points. Although I still maintain that mercenary pleasure isn't choice worthy for the same reason endless strings of drinking parties are not choiceworthy.

Quote from Kalosyni

The "pleasure of relief" in my mind is not pleasure - it is just relief.

Pleasure is for bodily sensations.

Enjoyment is for mental sensations

I would suggest "the feelings are two: pleasure and pain." Everything we feel is either pleasure or pain. It may be mild or intense, but it's either pleasure or pain. Relief is pleasure. Anxiety is pain. Enjoyment is pleasure. Happiness is pleasure. Aponia, ataraxia, khara (joy, exultation) , euphrosyne (mirth, good cheer, merriment), etc. are all pleasure. Take any "feeling" and it will fall somewhere on the scale of pleasure or pain. Even equilibrium or homeostasis is pleasure according to Epicurus. I personally am becoming more convinced that that is exactly what aponia and ataraxia are.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

And in other cases happiness and joy can be the product of war, if under the circumstances war is necessary to obtain or preserve the peace.

Something about this statement doesn't sit with me well. But maybe it is right up there with: humans kill animals for food and eating them gives us life. The level of abstraction has missing pieces. It may take me several more days to ponder this.

It strikes me (literally at first blush) that that statement has an echo of "we can only experience pleasure if we go through pain."

Happiness and joy are not the product of war. I'll give you that undergoing the pain of conflict may be necessary to obtain or preserve peace, but I wouldn't phrase it as happiness and joy are the "product of war." It may be necessary to endure the pain of war, but war does not "produce" happiness. The end of war may allow the environment in which happiness may be found, but I'd be careful about using produced or product. That implies causation.

I don't know if I'd be able to do it, but, theoretically, pleasure can be found in small things during a war with the right perspective... Even if it is as small as "I'm still alive to live tomorrow. I can still feel." Pleasure is emphatically not always the big joyful feeling. It can be as small as taking pleasure in breathing, feeling the breathe in and out.

Quote from Cassius

The philosophical boil has to be popped:

Well, there's a mental image! But I see where you're coming from.

Quote

60] "Further, we must not assert `up' or `down' of that which is unlimited, as if there were a zenith or nadir.92 As to the space overhead, however, if it be possible to draw93 a line to infinity from the point where we stand, we know that never will this space --or, for that matter, the space below the supposed standpoint if produced to infinity--appear to us to be at the same time `up' and `down' with reference to the same point ; for this is inconceivable. Hence it is possible to assume one direction of motion, which we conceive as extending upwards ad infinitum, and another downwards, even if it should happen ten thousand times that what moves from us to the spaces above our heads reaches the feet of those above us, or that which moves downwards from us the heads of those below us. None the less is it true that the whole of the motion in the respective cases is conceived as extending in opposite directions ad infinitum. (Emphasis added, Hicks from Perseus Digital Library)

Finally getting around to listening to the episode. I wanted to say that I agree with Cassius on his interpretation of this passage. Correct me if I misinterpreted you, Cassius . My reading is that that line that I can draw "up" from my head is going to hit the feet of those above me and be interpreted as coming from a "down" direction by them. And their "down" is going to be interpreted by me as coming from an "up" direction. So there is no absolute up and down but even something as supposedly concrete as up and down is relative to the observer.

PS. You don't have to posit other worlds even. Just imagine two people in different stories of a building, one in the ground level and one in the second story. Same situation applies.

FYI

Plutarch's essay On Peace of Mind (465f-466a)

Plutarch, De tranquilitate animi, stephpage 465f

Plutarch • On Tranquillity of Mind