Posts by Don

Quote from Kalosyni

(Wondering if maybe we need to move some of these posts to a new thread, since this was originally a thread for Kungi.)

Agree with Kalosyni on that.

Additionally, I advocate getting away from the natural and "unnatural" descriptors. There are natural desires - those arising from nature - and those that are not natural arising from fruitless, void, groundless, empty beliefs. They are κεναί:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=keno/s That's a much better description of what they are than unnatural. Unnatural implies they are somehow not human. They are unfortunately very human desires, but they're empty of substance and can never be satiated.

This is the exact same word Epicurus uses to name the "void" in "atoms and void." He's saying that there is literally nothing there to back up the desire. The void is the absence of atoms. It is the empty space within which the atoms move.

Quote from Kalosyni

It would all depend on what is considered necessary for happiness.

Here's my take from my translation of the last part of section 127 of the letter to Menoikeus made into a bulleted list:

"Furthermore, ...

• on the one hand, there are the natural desires
• on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.'
• And of the natural ones,
  • on the one hand, are the necessary ones;
  • on the other, the ones which are only natural;
  • then, of the necessary ones:
    • on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia;
    • then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body;
    • then those necessary for life itself."

Quote from Godfrey

I imagine this may sound like nitpicking

Doesn't sound like nitpicking to me

If anyone is curious from our last 20th get together, here is the play by Aristophanes entitled Wealth (Πλούτος , Plutus is the Latinized spelling since, evidently, *everything* has to be spelled like the Romans did it )

Plutus (play) - Wikipedia

PD15 Ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος καὶ ὥρισται καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν· ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει.

• Πλούτος wealth, riches
• ὥρισται (verb 3rd sg perf ind mp redupl) divide, limit
• εὐπόριστός easy to procure
• ὁ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν empty beliefs
• ἄπειρον boundless, infinite (same word to describe the extent of the universe)

ἐκπίπτω

• 1. to fall out of a chariot, c. gen., Hom., etc.; c. dat. pers., τόξον δέ οἱ ἔκπεσε χειρός Il.
• 2. of seafaring men, to be thrown ashore, Lat. ejici, Od., Hdt., etc.: of things, to suffer shipwreck, Xen.
• 3. to fall from a thing, i. e. be deprived of it, Lat. excidere, τινός or ἔκ τινος Aesch., etc.
• 4. to be driven out, of persons banished, Hdt., etc.
• 5. to go out or forth, sally out, id=Hdt., Xen.
• 6. to come out, of votes, id=Xen.
• 7. to escape, Thuc.
• 8. of oracles, to issue from the sanctuary, be imparted, Luc.
• 9. to depart from, digress, Xen., Aeschin.
• to fall off, come to naught, NTest.
• 11. of actors, to be hissed off the stage, Lat. explodi, Dem.
  • fut. -πεσοῦμαι
  • aor2 ἐξέπεσον
  • Nature's treasure has boundaries and is easy to procure; the riches based on empty beliefs are infinite and always out of reach.

Don translation: Nature's treasure has boundaries and is easy to procure; the riches based on empty beliefs are infinite and always out of reach.

Hicks translation: Nature’s wealth has its bounds and is easy to procure, but the wealth of vain fancies recedes to an infinite distance.

Saint-Andre translational: Natural wealth is both limited and easy to acquire, but the riches incited by groundless opinion are boundless.

Quote from Godfrey

.dangerous for it (the soul) to ignore the commands of nature because of attachment to its usual independence" is intriguing. This provides maybe the simplest description of vain desires: ignoring the commands of nature. And it implies the antidote: pay attention!

"...attachment to its usual independence" is less clear.

And I just realized that that "independence" is our old friend αὐταρκείας autarkeias usually translated as "self-reliance"! I was too fixated on the first part!!

200. Don't think it unnatural (ἀφυσιολόγητον aphysiologēton) that when the body cries out, the soul cries also. The body says don't be hungry, don't be thirsty, don't be cold. It is difficult for the soul to prevent these cries, and dangerous for it to ignore the commands of nature because of attachment to its usual independence.

ἀφυσιολόγητον μηδὲν ἡγοῦ βοώσης τῆς σαρκὸς βοᾶν τὴν ψυχὴν· σαρκὸς δὲ φωνή· μὴ πεινῆν, μὴ διψῆν, μὴ ῥιγοῦν· καὶ ταῦτα τὴν ψυχὴν χαλεπὸν μὲν κωλῦσαι, ἐπισφαλὲς δὲ παρακοῦσαι τῆς παραγγειλάσης φύσεως αὐτῇ τῆς προσφυοῦς αὑτῇ αὐταρκείας καθʼ ἡμέραν.

Otherwise, the phrasing appears to be:

οὔτε δὲ φυσικὰς οὔτ᾽ ἀναγκαίας

Neither natural nor necessary

I realize it's possibly pedantic, but the words natural and necessary are simply in a negative phrase: neither X nor Y. It's not the words "unnatural"and "unnecessary" themselves.

Please, if anyone sees otherwise, post your findings!

There's also this thread on self-sufficiency from 2021 that might be of interest:

Post

RE: Autarkia And Epicurean Living In The Modern World

I also apologize, @Macario , but I should have directly responded to the DeWitt quoted passages. I'll try to do that over the weekend. I did see that this line:

[…]

seems to convey to me the idea of contentment in relation to αυτάρκεια.

Thank you again for engaging in this conversation. I know it's been valuable for me so far to get me to delve into this topic.

Don

September 17, 2021 at 8:15 PM

For anyone who REALLY wants to get into the weeds...

Greek and Roman Textiles and Dress

Greek and Roman Textiles and Dress

www.academia.edu

Quote from reneliza

my understanding is that, at least in the letter to Menoeceus he didn’t use the term that would be an inversion - or direct opposite of “natural” and that “unnatural” is more of a translation choice because it seemed like they were meant to be opposites in that way - Don’s post seems to affirm this as well, but please correct if I’m wrong)

You are correct. Natural and Empty in Menoikeus. I don't think the Greek word for unnatural is ever used. For example:

PD29 Τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαὶ <καὶ ἀναγκαῖαι· αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ> καὶ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ οὔτε φυσικαὶ οὔτε ἀναγκαῖαι ἀλλὰ παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν γινόμεναι.

Don - Of the cravings, first there are those that are natural and required to live, then there are those that are natural but not required, and, finally, there are those that are neither natural nor required which come to be along with empty beliefs (beliefs devoid of merit).

That's as close as we get, I think.

At the risk of self-horn-tooting, here's my translation and commentary on the desires from my Letter to Menoikeus. Apologies for the length. See the PDF for more:

Translation:

Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself. [128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind, that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life.

Commentary:

127f. Ἀναλογιστέον δὲ ὡς τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν αἱ μέν εἰσι φυσικαί, αἱ δὲ κεναί,

• Ἀναλογιστέον "consider..."
• τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν "of the desires, yearnings"
  • "Consider then of the desires, on the one hand, are the φυσικαί "natural ones'
    • φυσικαί (physikai)
      • English physical, physics
  • on the other, the κεναί 'empty, fruitless, vain, void ones."
    • κεναί is also again the word used when Epicurus talks about atoms and void.

127g. καὶ τῶν φυσικῶν αἱ μὲν ἀναγκαῖαι, αἱ δὲ φυσικαὶ μόνον·

• "And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessities; on the other hand, the natural ones only."
  • ἀναγκαῖαι "necessary, essential; (if a plural noun as here) necessities"

127h. τῶν δ᾽ ἀναγκαίων αἱ μὲν πρὸς εὐδαιμονίαν εἰσὶν ἀναγκαῖαι,

• "then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, there are those necessary for eudaimonia;

Those necessary for eudaimonia are open to interpretation but must be based on Epicurus's philosophy.

127i. αἱ δὲ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν, αἱ δὲ πρὸς αὐτὸ τὸ ζῆν.

• ἀοχλησία "freedom from disturbance"
• σώματος genitive singular of σῶμᾰ
  • σῶμᾰ "the body; one's material body or existence"
• “then, those [necessary] for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those [necessary] for life itself.”

There are some translations that interpret αἱ δὲ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἀοχλησίαν to mean only things like clothing and shelter - those things that provide "freedom from disturbance" for the body, that is for one's physical existence. That isn't literally what is written so that is simply one interpretation. Those kinds of things - clothing and shelter - would seem to fall under the final category of those necessary for life. So, this category should catch those between eudaimonia and those necessary for life. This is an interesting category.

I would contend that those "necessary for life itself" are those essentials at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: food, water, shelter, sleep, air, etc. Again, clothing and shelter would seem to fall into this category.

PS: the "on the one hand... On the other hand" are meant to literally translate the Greek μεν... δε... It is clunky and awkward in English but I wanted to get across that they were there in the original. They do not have to be, nor should they be, translated this literally in all cases.

You might want to look up Philodemus' On Property Management for an actual ancient Epicurean's perspective on this topic:

Philodemus: On Property Management

Voula Tsouna provides a translation, extensive introduction, and notes on Philodemus&#39; treatise &quot;On Property Management.&quot; A fragmentary version of…

www.academia.edu

Here's an article Hiram wrote:

On Philodemus’ Art of Property Management

An overview and commentary of a scroll written by 1st Century Epicurean philosopher Philodemus of Gadara titled &quot;On Property Management&quot;. The main…

www.academia.edu

I realize this may be too "in the weeds" but I wanted to point out that these topics were being discussed in the Garden 2,000 years ago.

I thought that quote from Philodemus was on point about not feeling distressed by what one loses. I take that too mean don't invest recklessly and stay within your means. But he had much more to say, some applicable to modern life, other advice not so much. But it can be instructive to get a different perspective possibly.

Quote from Pacatus

I do not believe I can “hide” in an Epicurean Garden (not that I think that was what Epicurus advocated – even with his recommendation to, insofar as possible, live an obscure life)

We had an interesting, in-depth discussion on "live unknown" a couple years ago:

Post

What "Live Unknown" means to me (Lathe Biosas)

Fragment 551 famously reads λάθε βιώσας and is usually translated as "Live unknown." It could also be translated as "Live hidden," "Live unnoticed," or "Live while escaping notice."

But how do we square this coming from Epicurus who is known two thousand years after he died. Did he live by this maxim? We can't say Epicurus was even unknown during his life. So how are we to understand láthe biōsas as it pertains to him and ourselves?

Epicurus encouraged people to shun the world of politics and the…

Don

March 7, 2020 at 11:12 PM

You might need interested in what was said in that thread.

Quote from Cassius

I can't get rid yet of a nagging concern that evaluating desire on its own separate from pleasure is going to lead to problems of its own,

Um, Epicurus did the same thing in distinguishing desire and pleasure. So ... Just throwin' that out there.

Pleasure is, by definition, good.

Desires can be natural, unnatural, necessary, unnecessary, or empty. Desires are NOT all good by any means.

They're of course connected. We have desires for pleasures. But pleasure is separate from desire.

Eating is pleasurable. However, the desire *to eat* can come in many permutations, some necessary, some unnecessary, even though eating is natural:

• I want to eat because I'm actually hungry.
• I want to eat because I'm worried.
• I have the munchies. I'm bored.
• I want to eat because my friend is eating and I don't want them to eat alone even though I ate recently.
• I want to eat popcorn because that's what I do at the movie theater even though I'm not hungry.
• I want to eat at this one specific restaurant in Chicago but I can't travel there now. (Now, this one could turn into a pleasant memory!)

Quote from Cassius

But I doubt if there is much call in life, short of dealing with obstinate manipulators like Plato, to dwell on terms like "zero-emptiness." Nonstandard terms tend to confuse regular common-sense People.

I assume we're talking about "katastematic" here.

If so, I'll say your statement is true, but...

1. It was not a "nonstandard term" during Epicurus's lifetime or during the founding and early centuries when the philosophy of the Garden was popular and widespread.
2. It doesn't have to be - nor should it be - the first thing that's talked about when introducing the philosophy to people.
3. We need to have a response to the academics who DO use this term extensively. Because, as we know, people will say, "Didn't Epicurus say this katastematic pleasure was the be-all and end-all of his philosophy?" We need to be able to use the word, understand it (even if we may have a different take), and be able to defend our position. I cede nothing to the academics who want to make Epicureanism into "Stoicism-lite" or "Platonic hedonism" or some minimalistic ascetism that can be safely ignored and marginalized! By Zeus! I refuse to allow academics who themselves sometimes can't even agree on a translation let alone an interpretation dictate the terms of this discussion!

I have no problem using "katastematic" pleasure and defending my Interpretation. I'll use academic research papers and academic authors, but I certainly don't have to agree with their conclusions. Add I'll do my best to describe my Interpretation to "common-sense people" and let them come to their conclusion. And I do hope I've been using (for the most part) common-sense language in my posts at least. (btw, Just to be clear, this is NOT a polemic directed against Cassius !! I just get a tad fired up sometimes. )

Quote from Cassius

It's interesting to note that in that summary there is no distinction between kinetic and katastematic

True. There's no distinction, but...

Quote from Cicero

undisturbed either by the presence or by the prospect of pain

Quote from Cicero

strength of mind that is proof against all fear of death or of pain; he will know that death means complete unconsciousness

To my reading, both of those are solid descriptions of ataraxia and aponia, ie, katastematic pleasure. So, katastematic pleasure is mentioned but the distinction itself between katastematic and kinetic was not important enough to mention.

Quote from Cassius

The answer cannot be "no more than causes any pain" because we sometimes do chose pain as Epicurus said, for greater pleasure, and we seek not that which is longest but the most pleasant

Excellent point!

Well, to play devil's advocate, we DO have to limit all desires in some sense. Eating food and drinking water are both natural and necessary but if we overeat or even drink too much water (hyponatremia), it's going to lead to pain.

And yes, I'm using water as an example to be provocative

This got longer as I continued to review this thread. This is enough for now! These are consolidated ancient and modern sources and some notes from my posts within this thread:

Notes:

Idea (revised): Biological homeostasis = aponia (freedom from pain in the body; everything is working as it should.

Pathe "what is done or happens to a person or thing, opposite: πρᾶξις (praxis)" Praxis is the concrete aspect of pragma (genitive: pragmata).

On perceived errors in Wikipedia: We can all be Wikipedia editors and contribute content, External links, and references to all relevant articles. Nothing stopping us but time and inertia (two powerful forces btw)

Critical source: Diogenes Laertius, Book X.136:

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK X, EPICURUS (341-271 B.C.)

Other Ancient Sources, both Epicurean and otherwise:

Fragment 68 (see post #37)

68. To those who are able to reason it out, the highest and surest joy is found in the stable health of the body and a firm confidence in keeping it. (Saint-Andre)

τὸ γὰρ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κατάστημα (katastēma) καὶ τὸ περὶ ταύτης πιστὸν ἔλπισμα τὴν ἀκροτάτην χαρὰν καὶ βεβαιοτάτην ἔχει τοῖς ἐπιλογίζεσθαι δυναμένοις.

Vatican Saying 11 (see post #47)

Alternative translation of VS11 by me: "For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog."

τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ.

ἡσυχάζον (hesykhazon) I. to be still, keep quiet, be at res

My take is that this "being at rest, being still, keeping quiet" IS none other than ataraxia/aponia/katastematic pleasure. Most people - not us Epicurueans he's saying - think this is being bored or numb. We recognize its importance.

However, he's also saying Epicureans can enjoy active pleasures without "raving like a rabid dog".

Principal Doctrine 14 (see post #47)

PD14 . “Although security on a human level is achieved up to a point by a power to resist and by prosperity, the security afforded by inner peace and withdrawing from the crowd is the purest.” White (2021)

Τῆς ἀσφαλείας τῆς ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενομένης μέχρι τινὸς δυνάμει τινὶ ἐξερειστικῇ καὶ εὐπορίᾳ εἰλικρινεστάτη γίνεται ἡ ἐκ τῆς ἡσυχίας καὶ ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν ἀσφάλεια.

hesykhias shows up here - just like VS11 - translated as "inner peace". Again, inner peace = aponia/ataraxia = katastematic pleasure

Vatican Saying 33 (see post #37)

VS33 The body cries out (σαρκὸς φωνὴ) to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. (NOTE: I see these three conditions to be defining *aponia* and thus a katastematic pleasure!) Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness (εὐδαιμονίας eudaimonias).

σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν κἂν <διὶ> ὑπὲρ εὐδαιμονίας μαχέσαιτο.

Diogenes of Oenoanda (see posts #37 & #39)

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Wall Inscription site:

The inscripion

Diogenes of Oenoanda A:

Let us now [investigate] how life is to be made pleasant for us both in states and in actions.

Let us first discuss states (καταστημάτων katastematon), keeping an eye on the point that, when the emotions which disturb the soul are removed, those which produce pleasure enter into it to take their place.

Diogenes of Oenoanda B discusses katastema: "Diogenes (of Oenoanda) justifies the Epicurean use of the term 'pleasure' to refer to the experience of the state of tranquillity that constitutes the moral end by stating that such usage is in line with the term's ordinary meaning." Not sure if I agree with all of that, but the "state of tranquility" is aponia/ataraxia/katastematic pleasure.

See this paper

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43909587

Metrodorus, Fragment 5 (see post #40 and #46):

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26

archive.org

"Metrodorus, in his book On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects, says: 'What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?'"

This, to me, points to the "source" - "the sound state of the flesh" (to sarkos eustathes *katastema*) - being a more confident source of pleasure than "objects" (kinetic pleasure). It does NOT say the source "in ourselves" is "better (more value)" just that we can be more "sure" of its continuance - I would add - because we have control over it.

Metrodorus in his Timocrates, whose actual words are : "Thus pleasure being conceived both as that species which consists in motion and that which is a state of rest."

Metrodorus's quote is: νοουμένης δὲ ἡδονῆς τῆς τε κατὰ κίνησιν καὶ τῆς καταστηματικῆς. Right there, again, is κίνησιν (kinēsin) and καταστηματικῆς (katastēmatikēs).

Olympiodorus the Younger, Commentary on Plato’s "Philebus," [p. 274 Stallb.]: Epicurus, referring to natural pleasure, says that it is katastematic.

Philo of Alexandria, Allegory of the Law, III.54, t. I [p. 118 Mang.]: ... to those who say that pleasure is katastematic.

Academic Papers:

Epicurean Happiness: A Pig's Life?

Epicurean Happiness: A Pig's Life?

www.academia.edu

"Epicurus’ “Kinetic” and “Katastematic” Pleasures. A Reappraisal", Elenchos xxxvi (2015) fasc. 2: 271-296.

In this paper I shall offer new definitions for what seem to be the most dominant terms in Epicurus’ theory of pleasures – “kinetic” and “katastematic”. While…

www.academia.edu

"ΤΟ ΚΑΤ’ ΕΝΔΕΙΑΝ ΑΛΓΟΥΝ AND EPICUREAN KATASTEMATIC PLEASURES", ORGANON 48 (2016): 5-19

Abstr act. In this article I wish to emphasize the significance of τὸ κατ&#39; ἔνδειαν ἀλγοῦν, an expression appearing in our sources on Epicurean ethics which…

www.academia.edu

"Epicurus' Varietas and ἡ κινητικὴ ἡδονή", Mnemosyne 71 (2018) 777-798.

According to Epicurus’ view which locates the summit of pleasure in the absence of all pain, once pain has been removed pleasure cannot be increased, but it…

www.academia.edu