Posts by Don

I've come to take the "nothing" in that phrase to not mean "trivial, meaningless" but rather literally as "no thing." For us, death is a "not a thing", it doesn't exist for us. There is no thing that exists for us individually that is death. When we are, death is not. When we die, we cannot experience anything called "death."

I can say, "my grandmother is dead" but that in no way implies that she is now experiencing some state of existence called "death." She is not *literally* dead. She is not experiencing death. "She is dead" is only a conventional way to say she is no longer alive. The way we construct our language implies a dead person is experiencing death. But really, death is nothing.

Quote from Don

The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many

I want to state that that "withdrawal from the many" doesn't necessarily need to be physical. It is also a withdrawal from the beliefs of the many. The actual word used is ἐκχωρήσεως ek-khōrēseōs which literally means to remove oneself from the chorus as in a Greek tragedy performance. "ἐκχορεύω to break out of the chorus"

PS. That to me doesn't encourage solitude or being a hermit, but breaking away from what everyone else is saying, as the chorus spoke with one voice. To me, it is the same vein as "set sail in your own little boat free from indoctrination."

Quote from Kalosyni

Don -- Can you post the links to translation entries for the Greek words ataraxia and eponia on the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀτα?́ρ-ακτος

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀτα^ρ-αξία

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Α α, , ἀπονία , ἀπονία

Quote from Kalosyni

I think this is a very important Epicurean principle to consider -- that we are going to navigate through the world neither numb, nor frenzied -- and maybe a better word than "calm" would be "grounded" (?)

I like "grounded" It even hints at a connotation of a "foundation on which to build" that is becoming my understanding of ataraxia.

Quote from Kalosyni

VS 11 - "For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied.

I like that VS. To me, it speaks to the unsatisfied way many people experience their lives. This VS to me also is a direct refutation of the Cyrenaic position of a frenzied pursuit of one momentary pleasure after another without taking time to neither calmly reflect on pleasures of the past nor to anticipate the pleasures of the future. Here's my translation:

For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.

The "rest" there is hesykhias which also shows up in PD14:

The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, after having obtained a certain degree of security with respect to other men by means of comfort and prosperity.

Quote from Cassius

We do not disagree - that is why I said "full description."

I didn't think we did, but I wanted to enter my current position/understanding into the record with regard specifically to tranquility's place in Epicurean philosophy and practice and to encourage discussion from others.

Quote from Cassius

But there are others out there in the world who insist that "tranquility" IS a sufficient description of the Epicurean goal, and that is my reason for the rhetorical question.

The rhetorical question isn't always best left unanswered. In fact, the way you posed that question - from my perspective - is a perfect jumping off point to make the argument for pleasure as the goal.

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure as defined by normal definitions includes both joy and delight and tranquility. The reverse is not the case in normal or academic discourse - tranquility is not considered to include joy and delight.

I agree. Academic commentators who elevate ataraxia and aponia at the expense of khara and euphrosyne do seem disingenuous or even dishonest. Those four are given together in the infamous katastematic/kinetic categorization. Epicurus included all four of these in his definition of pleasure. That is one of the fundamental doctrines that distinguished his philosophy from the Cyrenaics. He recognized the pleasures of sex, pleasant sights, etc. in the moment like them but also recognized the pleasure of calm, equanimity, and tranquility when a person returns to balance and (to use the modern term) homeostasis.

Quote from Cassius

As I see it f we want to convey that we value both goals in the online world of discussing Epicurus, the global word which must be emphasized is Pleasure.

No argument there.

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure is clearly communicated to be the goal, and we can all pursue Pleasure in whatever form we find pleasurable.

I push back on (or clarify) that statement a little as it's stated to say that not *everything* one finds pleasurable should *necessarily* be pursued. All pleasures are good but not all pleasures should be chosen if a pleasurable life is the goal . We must choose wisely.

Quote from Cassius

That's exactly what the elevation of "katastematic pleasure" has done in many cases - dilute and demote the sweeping nature of the word "pleasure." And whether we like it or not, people who focus on "tranquility" and "katastematic pleasure" as replacements for "pleasure" are everywhere in modern online discussion of Epicurus, so this is an issue to keep constantly in mind.

Yes, I don't think "katastematic pleasure" should stand alone at the expense of "kinetic pleasure." But, in regards to my post #10, I also contend that we shouldn't denigrate or dilute the role tranquility can play in an Epicurean life and practice. Note: I don't think you're doing that, Cassius , but I think it needs to be stated explicitly and to be kept in mind (no pun necessarily intended).

Quote from Cassius

When you and Epicurus both accept that you have been nonexistent for an eternity before death and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die, do you really think that Epicurus taught that the full description of all you want out of life is to be "calm"?

Of course not, that's not the full description. However, calmness/tranquility of the mind was without question part of the life he promised if one put his philosophy into practice in their life.

I personally welcome the opportunity to face life with a tranquil mind. I want the ability to make decisions calmly, without feeling buffeted by the waves of chance or to rashly react. I want to feel the bite of grief when I lose someone but not to dwell in that grief forever, returning eventually to calm acceptance and to honor them with joyful remembrance of the past. I want to feel free from anxiety and needless stress and to instead live a life that allows me to embrace challenges with clear eyes and a calm mind with realistic expectations. Having tranquility doesn't mean going through life numb and unfeeling. To me, it means embracing the moments in front of you, being able to savor those, plucking the fruit of the day, without being tossed about by anxiety, anger, stress, without worrying about the future or regretting the past. One can plan for the future without worry and anxiety. One can learn from the past without regret.

I fall short of all these goals to various degrees, but Epicurean philosophy gives me a map by which to steer my boat to a calm harbor in the distance from which I can venture out but to which I can also return.

Of potential interest

Speed Under Sail of Ancient Ships — TAPA 82:136‑148 (1951)

DISTANCE AND COMMUNICATION

New Interactive Map Calculates Travel Times in Ancient Rome

www.livescience.com

Article about this site...

ORBIS: The Stanford Geospatial Network Model of the Roman World

Quote from Kalosyni

Just pondering: How many times might Epicurus have sailed either across or in the Aegean Sea?

Samos to Athens

Athens to Colophon

Colophon to Mytilene

Mytilene to Lampsacus

Lampsacus to Athens

But maybe other trips as well?

Display More

That's a good inventory!

There could have been other trips. I vaguely remember that he went to visit one of the Asia Minor/Ionian "gardens" but maybe he sent one of the other founders.

But I get the idea sea travel wasn't to be taken lightly.

Quote from Joshua

Quote

A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

Hadn't heard that one. John Augustus Shedd.

"Set sail in your own little boat, blessed one, free from all indoctrination!"

Fascinating

Visual snow - Wikipedia

Yep, definitely need to search the plural AND singular forms...

*seas*

book 1, card 1: ... thou walkest forth to lead, And thence through seas and mountains and swift

streams, Through leafy homes

book 1, card 185: ... not prepare Men of a bulk to ford the seas afoot, Or rend the mighty mountains with their

book 1, card 238: ... with eld and foul decay, Or when salt seas eat under beetling crags. Thus Nature ever by

book 1, card 705: ... and flows In mighty bend and bay the Ionic seas, Splashing the brine from off their gray-green

book 5, card 91: ... by empty promises- behold, Before all else, the seas, the lands, the sky: O Memmius, their threefold

book 5, card 261: ... with his rays dissolves) Do minish the level seas; in part because The water is diffused underground

book 5, card 380: ... with his rays dissolves) Do minish the level seas and trust their power To dry up all,

book 5, card 449: ... extend the vast Cerulean zones of all the level seas, Caved in, and down along the hollows poured

book 5, card 988: ... nor would then The ramping breakers of the main seas dash Whole argosies and crews upon the rocks.

book 5, card 1436: ... Shows us a footprint. Sailings on the seas, Tillings of fields, walls, laws, and arms, and

book 6, card 357: ... both cold and heat Are mixed in the cross-seas of the year, So that a discord rises... account these seasons of the year Are nominated "cross-seas."- And no marvel If in those times

book 6, card 423: ... come down, Discharged from on high, upon the seas. For it haps that sometimes from the sky descends Upon the seas a column, as if pushed, Round which the... until 'tis like a column from sky Upon the seas pushed downward- gradually, As if a Somewhat ... from out the cloud it rushes Down on the seas, and starts among the waves A wondrous seething,

book 6, card 608: ... porous through her frame, And neighbours on the seas, girdling their shores, The water's wet must... briny ocean, as from lands it comes Into the seas. For brine is filtered off, And then the

*ships*

book 1, card 80: ... Making his child a sacrificial beast To give the ships auspicious winds for Troy: Such are the crimes

book 1, card 238: ... our face and frame, Unseen, and swamp huge ships and rend the clouds, Or, eddying wildly down

book 5, card 324: ... arts are being still Refined, still increased: now unto ships Is being added many a new device;

book 5, card 1436: ... ; already Would the sea flower and sail-winged ships; Already men had, under treaty pacts,

book 6, card 423: ... Aroused by puffing gusts; and whatso'er Of ships are caught within that tumult then Come into

I find this line of thinking interesting...

Ask Ethan: Will The End Of Our Universe Give Rise To A New One?

Has all this happened before, and will all this happen once again?

www.forbes.com

Is heat death reversible by thermal or quantum fluctuations given an infinite time?

I'm new here, so apologies if the question doesn't sound meaningful considering what physics is supposed to answer. I don't have a physics or mathematics…

physics.stackexchange.com

Evidently, I needed to search the plural:

**shores**

book 1, card 1: ... without thee naught Is risen to reach the shining shores of light, Nor aught of joyful or of

book 1, card 146: ... are all, Each birth goes forth upon the shores of light From its own stuff, from its ... arrive and pregnant earth Safely may give unto the shores of light Her tender progenies? But if from

book 1, card 705: ... straits, Swift ocean cuts her boundaries from the shores Of the Italic mainland. Here the waste

book 2, card 333: ... the sea Beats on the thirsty sands of curving shores. Wherefore again, again, since seeds of things

book 2, card 522: ... masts and swimming oars, so that afar Along all shores of lands are seen afloat The carven fragments ... is the wildered wail Of infants coming to the shores of light: No night a day, no dawn

book 2, card 581: ... are to be adjudged Unfit to give unto the shores of light A living progeny. The Galli come:

book 2, card 991: ... in earth sinks back, and what was sent From shores of ether, that, returning home, The vaults of

book 4, card 199: ... what a point of time An image from the shores of ether falls Unto the shores of earth? Wherefore, again, And yet again, '

book 4, card 379: ... the huge plains of ocean spread beneath The vasty shores of ether, and intervene A thousand lands, possessed

book 4, card 522: ... raucous boomings, or when swans By night from icy shores of Helicon With wailing voices raise their liquid

book 5, card 195: ... when nature first Hath poured him forth upon the shores of light With birth-pangs from within the

book 5, card 449: ... settle, but too much to glide Along the upmost shores; and yet they are In such a wise

book 5, card 772: ... parturition had decreed To raise in air unto the shores of light And to entrust unto the wayward

book 5, card 1379: ... of men, And reason uplifts it to the shores of light. These tunes would soothe and glad

book 5, card 1436: ... of men, And reason uplifts it to the shores of light. For one thing after other did

book 6, card 608: ... frame, And neighbours on the seas, girdling their shores, The water's wet must seep into the

book 6, card 738: ... thence the under-gods draw down Souls to dark shores of Acheron- as stags, The

Got it! Good one! Thanks!

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 146

Again, why see we lavished o'er the lands

At spring the rose, at summer heat the corn,

The vines that mellow when the autumn lures,

If not because the fixed seeds of things

At their own season must together stream,

And new creations only be revealed

When the due times arrive and pregnant earth

Safely may give unto the shores of light

Her tender progenies? But if from naught

Were their becoming, they would spring abroad

Suddenly, unforeseen, in alien months,

With no primordial germs, to be preserved

From procreant unions at an adverse hour.

Looking up the Latin:

in luminis oras

"In partic., the coast, sea-coast"

Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, ōra

*search: shore*

book 1, card 238: ... of touch. And raiment, hung by surf-beat shore, grows moist, The same, spread out before the

book 5, card 1: ... could he inflict on us Along the Atlantic shore and wastes of sea?- Where neither one of

book 6, card 470: ... Besides, the clothes hung-out along the shore, When in they take the clinging moisture, prove

Do you know the line number of the "shores of light"? It doesn't seem to come up as a phrase in the Leonard translation on Perseus.

I first came to be curious about allusions to nautical topics within the Epicurean texts - from Epicurus himself onward - when I saw commentary on the fact that ataraxia (and ataraktos) not only semantically means "calmness" and "tranquility" but also had the connotation (or could be applied to) the calmness of the sea, still water with no waves and no trouble for the mariners.

It makes perfect sense. The ancient Greeks were a sea-faring, island-dwelling culture. No polis was that far from a shoreline. Athens itself was connected to its port "suburb" Pireaus by the Long Walls.

However, what I like the most, is that it gives a concreteness, a solidity, to the philosophy. As some have said, ataraxia is a hard term to understand if you don't know Greek. But tell someone to imagine a sea with the water still, no choppy waves, reflecting the sunshine and clouds, and maybe it gets easier to understand what ataraxia means.

Consider this a start only, a working draft if you will. If anyone has any favorites or any questions on whether a particular word or phrase falls into this category, consider this an open thread for everyone.

Fragment 163

παιδείαν δὲ πᾶσαν, μακάριε, φεῦγε τἀκάτιον ἀράμενος.

* Flee from all indoctrination, O blessed one, and hoist the sail of your own little boat. (personal translation)

1. τἀκάτιον = (to) akation "light boat, small sail" < ἄκατος "light vessel, boat, ship", in Modern Greek "dinghy, small skiff"

-ιον = noun-forming diminutive suffix

2. ἀράμενος < ἀείρω = "get ships under sail"

Note the ambiguity of ἀκάτιον meaning both a small (diminutive) boat and small sail being used synonymously.

Metaphor: self-reliance, setting sail free of indoctrination or acculturation

Vatican Saying 17

οὐ νέος μακαριστὸς ἀλλὰ γέρων βεβιωκὼς καλῶς· ὁ γὰρ νέος ἀκμῇ πολὺς ὑπὸ τῆς τύχης ἑτεροφρονῶν πλάζεται· ὁ δὲ γέρων καθάπερ ἐν λιμένι τῷ γήρᾳ καθώρμικεν, τὰ πρότερον δυσελπιστούμενα τῶν ἀγαθῶν ἀσφαλεῖ κατακλείσας χάριτι.

* It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of.

1. ἐν λιμένι < λῐμήν "harbor; haven, retreat, refuge"

2. καθώρμικεν < καθορμίζω "bring a ship into harbor, bring to anchor"

Note: κατακλείσας < κατακλείω (not nautical, but interesting: literally means to be "shut in, confined; enclosed, e.g., a mummy in its case; close a speech, conclude" This is the word evidently translated as "secure". χάριτι = dative "by/through/for gratitude."

Metaphor: An elder is "secure" in their gratitude for the pleasures they've experienced, those memories are safely docked in a harbor.

Variations on γᾰλήνη "stillness of the sea, calm; calmness, serenity"

Aeschylus: metaph., φρόνημα νηνέμου γαλάνας "spirit of serenest calm"

Metaphor: The calm sea without turbulence or waves is comparable to the calmness and serenity of the mind.

Letter to Herodotus, 37

Ὅθεν δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ, παρεγγυῶν τὸ συνεχὲς ἐνέργημα ἐν φυσιολογίᾳ καὶ τοιούτῳ μάλιστα ἐγγαληνίζων τῷ βίῳ ἐποίησά σοι καὶ τοιαύτην τινὰ ἐπιτομὴν καὶ στοιχείωσιν τῶν ὅλων δοξῶν.

* Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this, have prepared for you just such an epitome and manual of the doctrines as a whole.

1. ἐγγαληνίζων τῷ βίῳ "spend life calmly, serenely"

Letter to Herodotus, 83

Τοιαῦτα γάρ ἐστιν, ὥστε καὶ τοὺς κατὰ μέρος ἤδη ἐξακριβοῦντας ἱκανῶς ἢ καὶ τελείως, εἰς τὰς τοιαύτας ἀναλύοντας ἐπιβολάς, τὰς πλείστας τῶν περιοδειῶν ὑπὲρ τῆς ὅλης φύσεως ποιεῖσθαι: ὅσοι δὲ μὴ παντελῶς τῶν ἀποτελουμένων εἰσίν, ἐκ τούτων καὶ κατὰ τὸν ἄνευ φθόγγων τρόπον τὴν ἅμα νοήματι περίοδον τῶν κυριωτάτων πρὸς γαληνισμὸν ποιοῦνται.

* It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind.

1. γαληνισμὸν "calming" as used here by Epicurus; also used by Aristotle to mean "calming of the conscience" (Arist. Ep.5): πρὸς γαληνισμὸν ποιοῦνται can be paraphrased as "productive for the calming (of their minds) like a waveless sea"

Lucretius, On the Nature of Things (Perseus search)

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 1

"ship"

book 2, card 522: ... joining into one. But, just as, after mighty ship-wrecks piled, The mighty main is wont to

book 4, card 379: ... Nor lightly think our senses everywhere Are tottering. The ship in which we sail Is borne along, although it seems to stand; The ship that bides in roadstead is supposed There to ... Seem fleeing fast astern, past which we urge The ship and fly under the bellying sails. The stars

book 4, card 877: ... these twain factors, severally, Body is borne like ship with oars and wind. Nor yet in these... subtle body, Yet pushes, driving on the mighty ship Of mighty bulk; one hand directs the same

book 5, card 988: ... Out to disaster: for the science bold Of ship-sailing lay dark in those far times. Again

book 6, card 1002: ... thereof, Shoves it and pushes, as wind the ship and sails. The same doth happen in all

"sea" - 50 results

book 1, card 1: ... Immortal charm. Lull to a timely rest O'er sea and land the savage works of war, For

book 1, card 146: ... thing, No fixed seed required. Men from the sea Might rise, and from the land the scaly

book 1, card 205: ... each? Whence may the water-springs, beneath the sea, Or inland rivers, far and wide away,

book 1, card 238: ... 'Tis clear, are sightless bodies sweeping through The sea, the lands, the clouds along the sky, Vexing

book 1, card 763: ... ; for these Same germs do put together sky, sea, lands, Rivers, and sun, grains, trees, and breathing

book 1, card 1002: ... And mountain walls hedge air; land ends the sea, And sea in turn all lands; but for the All ... single nature, ne'ertheless Immeasurably forth.... Nor sea, nor earth, nor shining vaults of sky, Nor

book 1, card 1083: ... those Of earth and water (liquid of the sea, And the big billows from the mountain slopes

book 2, card 1: ... beholdest forth Thy fleets to swarm, deploying down the sea: For then, by such bright circumstance abashed,

book 2, card 333: ... With shells and conchs, where, with soft waves, the sea Beats on the thirsty sands of curving shores.

book 2, card 660: ... sprouting from man's trunk, Limbs of a sea-beast to a land-beast knit, And nature

book 2, card 1048: ... commencements fit Of mighty things- the earth, the sea, the sky, And race of living creatures. Thus

book 2, card 1105: ... world, ere since The risen first-born day of sea, earth, sun, Have many germs been added from... them on, Brought hither, that from them the sea and lands Could grow more big, and that

book 2, card 1144: ... The mortal generations to the fields; Nor sea, nor breakers pounding on the rocks Created them;

book 3, card 487: ... if to vomit soul, As on the salt sea boil the billows round Under the master might

book 3, card 830: ... to which the empery should fall By land and sea, thus when we are no more, When comes... then- No, not if earth confounded were with sea, And sea with heaven. But if indeed do feel The

book 3, card 1024: ... , he- Who whilom paved a highway down the sea, And gave his legionaries thoroughfare Along the

book 4, card 199: ... one instant of the day, and fly O'er sea and lands and flood the heaven, what then

book 4, card 217: ... The wet of a salt taste, when by the sea We roam about; and so, whene'er we

book 4, card 414: ... the sky. Again, to gazers ignorant of the sea, Vessels in port seem, as with broken poops

book 4, card 777: ... Directly we desire- if heart prefer The sea, the land, or after all the sky? Assemblies

book 4, card 1121: ... green light are set in gold; And rich sea-purple dress by constant wear Grows shabby and

book 4, card 1233: ... her bosom Now yielding like the billows of the sea- Aye, from the ploughshare's even course and

book 5, card 1: ... us Along the Atlantic shore and wastes of sea?- Where neither one of us approacheth nigh

book 5, card 110: ... bridled by religion, thou suppose Lands, sun, and sky, sea, constellations, moon, Must dure forever, as of frame... exist a tree, Nor clouds in the salt sea, nor in the fields Can fishes live, nor

book 5, card 195: ... ; And cliffs, and desert fens, and wastes of sea (Which sunder afar the beaches of the lands... why Doth nature feed and foster on land and sea The dreadful breed of savage beasts, the foes

book 5, card 261: And for the rest, that sea, and streams, and springs Forever with new waters

book 5, card 351: ... the sky, against the sun and earth And deep-sea waters, but wide open stands And gloats upon

book 5, card 380: ... inundations vast From forth the unplumbed chasms of the sea. But vain- since winds (that over-sweep

book 5, card 416: ... oft the commencements fit Of mighty things- earth, sea, and sky, and race Of living creatures.

book 5, card 432: ... The lofty heavens from the lands, and cause The sea to spread with waters separate, And fires of

book 5, card 449: ... their mass those particles Which were to form the sea, the stars, the sun, And moon, and ramparts

book 5, card 495: ... one unaltered urge, the Pontus proves- That sea which floweth forth with fixed tides, Keeping one

book 5, card 772: ... the land-dwellers ever have come up Out of sea-pools of salt. How true remains, How merited

book 5, card 988: ... lightly too; Nor soft seductions of a serene sea Could lure by laughing billows any man

book 5, card 1028: ... , the flying race, the dappled birds, Hawks, ospreys, sea-gulls, searching food and life Amid the ocean

book 5, card 1194: ... ? When, too, fierce force of fury-winds at sea Sweepeth a navy's admiral down the main

book 5, card 1436: ... All portioned out and boundaried; already Would the sea flower and sail-winged ships; Already men had

book 6, card 121: ... ; As when along deep streams or the great sea Breaks the loud surf. It happens, too, whenever

book 6, card 246: ... to forge. Besides, full often also out at sea A blackest thunderhead, like cataract Of pitch

book 6, card 379: ... ? Then for what reason shoots he at the sea?- What sacrilege have waves and bulk of brine

book 6, card 423: ... self into the waters there And rouses all the sea with monstrous roar, Constraining it to seethe. It

book 6, card 470: ... moisture, prove That nature lifts from over all the sea Unnumbered particles. Whereby the more 'Tis manifest

book 6, card 495: ... Whilst the winds bear them o'er the mighty sea, Like hanging fleeces of white wool. Thuswise,

book 6, card 577: ... such omnipotent Convulsions on the land, and in the sea Engulfed hath sunken many a city down

book 6, card 608: ... the random rains And flying tempests, which spatter every sea And every land bedew; add their own springs... drop. Wherefore 'tis less a marvel that the sea, The mighty ocean, increaseth not. Besides, ... garments dripping all with wet; And many a sea, and far out-spread beneath, Do we behold

book 6, card 639: ... a sudden move, And fierce typhoons can over sea and lands Go tearing on, and Aetna's ... though yet All these, with sky and land and sea to boot, Are all as nothing to the

book 6, card 680: ... Tumultuous power. Besides, in mighty part, The sea there at the roots of that same mount ... sucks back its surf. And grottos from the sea pass in below Even to the bottom of ... water and air] Deeply to penetrate from the open sea, And to out-blow abroad, and to up

book 6, card 703: ... may bar His mouths against his onward waves, when sea, Wild in the winds, tumbles the sand to

book 6, card 879: ... fountain far There is at Aradus amid the sea, Which bubbles out sweet water and disparts

book 6, card 906: ... The wet of a salt taste, when by the sea We roam about; and so, whene'er we

Quote from Cassius

This is probably a good example of a field in which lots of caution and consideration of multiple possibilities even "waiting" is appropriate

It could also be an example of someone not wanting to accept the preponderance of evidence and wanting to cling to an "alternative" pet theory.

I know some who have considered Belize.