Posts by Don

  • Another mainstream article claiming ataraxia is the goal

    Random Internet sites I found sort of on this topic I now submit for consideration, neither endorsing nor disapproving at this point:

    (Edit: I'm slowly going back and pulling out quotes and commenting. I hope that doesn't change anyone's reactions :) )

    Living Like an Epicurean - Pondering with Pete
    My biggest takeaway from this exercise is that living with intent improves your happiness. Regardless of if you live like an Epicurean, a Stoic, a Taoist, or…
    ponderingwithpete.com
    Quote

    My biggest problem with Epicureanism is their belief in absolute goodness and absolute badness. I think life is much less stressful and more enjoyable when we consider everything’s goodness or badness to be relative. Some things seem bad in the moment but end up being good; I think an Epicurean mindset of absolute good and badness precludes one (at least practically) from having faith that some bad things may turn out to be good things.

    I found some interesting comments from this college student, but the excerpt above made me sad. I'm not sure where he got the "absolute" idea from, but I suspect it was "all pleasure is good .." But he overgeneralized to "all pleasure should be chosen" I think.

    Epicurean Spiritual Exercises | Counter-Currents
    1,291 words Trans. Guillaume Durocher Translator’s Note: The following is drawn from Pierre Hadot, Qu’est-ce que la philosophie antique ? (Paris: Gallimard,…
    counter-currents.com

    I think some on this forum flinch at the term "spiritual exercises" but I chalk that up to Hadot's idiosyncracies. This excerpt of his work seems mostly uncontroversial to me, except for bringing up "asceticism". It seems to me primarily a bringing together of some of the practices scattered in Epicurean texts which *could* be a helpful start.

    Philosophy As a Way of Life
    Philosophy, as it is practiced today, is abstract, theoretical, and detached from life. In the Greco-Roman world, it was something quite di…
    www.nypl.org
    Quote

    He (Epicurus) was in fact an ascetic. Pleasure, for him, is not sensuality and luxury but freedom from pain and tranquility. If we live a simple life, restrict our desires, free ourselves from the fear of death, and learn to accept our mortal condition, we can have a tranquil life, and recover the simple joy of existing, with a feeling of profound gratitude for life.

    AND there it is! In their defense, they're summarizing Hadot who said the same thing above in those excerpts. There's some other interesting items in here comparing the various schools, but the old ascetic trope lives on.

    Why Epicurean ideas suit the challenges of modern secular life
    Sure, Epicureans focused on seeking pleasure – but they also did so much more.
    bigthink.com

    Finally read this one in its entirety and probably my favorite one of the bunch. This author seems to get it. :thumbup: :thumbup: Not a mention of asceticism!

  • Another mainstream article claiming ataraxia is the goal

    Quote from Kalosyni

    So then this "working towards having a calm baseline" would require therapeutics?


    And if so, then we need to list all of them -- sourced from PD's, Vatican Sayings, Letter to Menoeceus, Diogenes Laertius wise man sayings, and Cicero's Torquatus -- so we see what specifically leads to this calm baseline.

    I'm not sure of "therapeutics" but maybe techniques? Exercises? Suggested activities? Epicurus did make the direct comparison between medicine and philosophy, so there's something there.

    I'd have to review all those texts, but I can say that I doubt we'll find specific instructions. Our textual treasury is just not deep enough ;( However, I'm going to offer that his "maza (bread) and water" comment in Menoikeus is an instruction - a declaration - to pay attention to the daily, ordinary pleasures in the moment. To take pleasure in the ordinary. That's a powerful instruction!

    I recently had someone recommend The Mindfulness Solution by Dr Ronald Siegel, PsyD. I just started listening to the audiobook, but it's mindfulness sans woo. And it says exactly what I'm saying: mindfulness makes us better at paying attention to - and enjoying! - the everyday experiences we have, makes us less anxious about the future, and less stressed about the past. That sounds exactly like what Epicurus was advocating to me! I'll have to listen to more, but what I'm hearing is encouraging and I think directly applicable to Epicurean practice.

  • Another mainstream article claiming ataraxia is the goal

    A lot going on in this thread and I have some thoughts on specific comments, but for now I'd like to be clear about what I mean when I use tranquility or ataraxia.

    I don't mean some mystical state or some "special" state or some woo-woo state.

    I do mean simply a clear-headed, calm mind unruffled by anxiety or fear.

    A person can have that state if they are relaxing, if they are engaged in action, even if they're on the battlefield. It means someone isn't freaking out. It means they approach decisions clearly, decisively, with no equivocation or regret.

    Does that state arise naturally? Yes.

    Does it take practice to achieve and maintain that state? Absolutely.

    Is it better to have that state as a foundation from which to confront the "slings and arrows" of daily life than other states? Yes indeed, in my opinion.

    In the end, I don't think one can truly be happy, be filled with well-being, or experience satisfaction unless you're working towards having that calm baseline to work from.

  • Another mainstream article claiming ataraxia is the goal

    Quote

    Quote from OKeefe

    "Given this pair of distinctions, the Epicureans maintain that the main constituent of the pleasant life, and hence, of the happy life, is the static mental pleasure of ataraxia, or tranquility—the state of being free from mental disturbance."

    I wouldn't call ataraxia the "main constituent" but I may go so far as to call it a necessary condition but not a sufficient one.

  • Another mainstream article claiming ataraxia is the goal

    First thoughts:

    It may be admissible to describe Epicurus's description of the highest pleasure being the absence of pain as "idiosyncratic" simply because he shifts focus. It would be like describing a full glass of water as the absence of air in the glass. But the *real* import of saying there's not air in the glass is an "idiosyncratic" way of emphasized the point that the glass is completely filled to the rim with water. Your glass is completely filled with no room for any more water. Same with pleasure and pain. You wouldn't order a glass of water by saying "I'd like a glass completely devoid of air" unless you were trying to make some point. I think that's what Epicurus was doing with his absence of pain terminology. A life filled to the rim with pleasure *can be* thought of as a life lived in the absence of pain. It's not some arcane thing like some authors and academics try to make it out to be.

    Another first thought:

    So many authors and academics completely skip over this line that's right there:

    Quote from Cicero's Torquatus

    "For the pleasure which we pursue is ***not that alone*** which excites the natural constitution itself by a kind of sweetness, and of which the sensual enjoyment is attended by a kind of agreeableness, but we look upon the greatest pleasure as that which is enjoyed when all pain is removed."

    Not that alone! So "we pursue" that which excites the natural constitution itself by a kind of sweetness, and of which the sensual enjoyment is attended by a kind of agreeableness, but just not only that. We pursue both x and y.

    I maintain that cultivating tranquility is an important component of an Epicurean life, an Epicurean practice, but that is not at the expense of that "which the sensual enjoyment is attended by a kind of agreeableness." It's both.

  • Is Epicurean life achievable only for well off?

    Excellent question, @waterholic and good responses from the rest of the crew. I'd just add (or emphasize) that Epicurus's philosophy encourages people - at any level of socio-economic status - that one can find pleasure in living. If all you have at the moment are the small things, we should all take pleasure in the small things: eating food to nourish the body even if meagre, feeling the sun on one's face, etc.

    I think Epicurus would also encourage people to do all they can to satisfy their essential needs. Without those things "necessary for life" and we'll-being and the health of the body, one will find it very difficult to enjoy pleasure and to be sure of its continuance.

  • A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Arrakis

    That's fascinating, Joshua !! Thanks for sharing!

    To maybe answer your question:

    Pub names - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org
    Quote

    Checkers or Chequer(s), March, Isle of Ely and many other sites : sometimes derived from the coat of arms of a local landowner (see Chequy), this name and sign originated in ancient Rome when a chequer board indicated that a bar also provided banking services. The checked board was used as an aid to counting and is the origin of the word exchequer. The last pub to use the older, now American spelling of checker was in Baldock, Hertfordshire, but this closed circa 1990; all pubs now use the modern "q" spelling (but see also Chequers, in Plants and horticulture below).

    So, pubs and churches?

  • Lucretius commentary in LATIN!

    Now for something completely different...

    Live commentary on Lucretius in spoken Latin!

    So, here's another reason to learn Latin.

    Close your eyes and imagine a conversation in ancient Rome. Stefano also reads some selections from De Rerum Natural.

    And I understand almost nothing, maybe the occasional ergo or sum or hic. I just found out fascinating.

  • Thoughts and Discussion on Organizing Epicurean Community

    An official 501(c)3 organization would be an interesting (but serious) avenue to take:

    Charities and Nonprofits | Internal Revenue Service
    www.irs.gov

    Strict by-law, filing, board, and reporting requirements. If there was a philosophical Epicurean 501(c)3 nonprofit organization, I wonder if we'd be able to provide certification for people to perform weddings. That'd be interesting.

    Out of curiosity, I did a quick search of non-profit organizations at the IRS website looking for 'epicur' and found:

    National Epicureans Incorporated

    National Epicureans Inc
    Eat, Drink, and Be Merry!
    nationalepicureansinc.org

    North Galveston Epicurean Education Center Inc. https://northgalveston.org/

    Epicurean Charitable Foundation (ECF)

    About ECF - Epicurean Charitable Foundation

    The Epicurean Club of Boston

    Professional Chef's Association | The Epicurean Club of Boston | Saugus, MA
    The Epicurean Club of Boston is America's oldest professional chefs association established in 1894. We are a local chapter of the American Culinary Federation…
    www.acfecb.com

    Baton Rouge Epicurean Society

    Baton Rouge Epicurean Society - Restaurant in Baton Rouge, LA
    Baton Rouge Epicurean Society in Baton Rouge, LA. Call us at (225) 572-0802. Check out our location and hours, and latest menu with photos and reviews.
    www.bresbr.org

    Quite the eclectic group of organizations!!

  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - Pleasure Part Two

    I'm curious if you're "for" the idea of flow being connected somehow to katastematic pleasure or "against" the idea :) I'm legitimately unsure from the way you worded that.

    I also think there's some connection between mindfulness and ataraxia/aponia. This excerpt from this article makes me go "Hmmm?"...

    Quote

    Mindfulness, the awareness that arises from paying attention to the present moment without resistance, is a fertile environment for flow to appear. However, being mindful does not guarantee flow, but rather creates the optimal conditions for flow to happen.

    Mindfulness and flow both live “in the here and the now” and involve engaging the present moment with willingness. While flow happens during pleasant experiences, mindfulness can happen all of the time.

    I do think ataraxia happens here and now, a calm abiding in the present moment. I'm especially intrigued by that "flow happens during pleasant experiences."

    For those unfamiliar with flow, here's an article from Positive Psychology:

    8 Traits of Flow According to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
    Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes 'Flow' as a state of complete absorption.
    positivepsychology.com

    Oh, and I have no dog in this flow fight. Consider these my musings on a possible interesting connection.

  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - Pleasure Part Two

    One more thought then I'll step off the soapbox:

    I was just listening to a podcast (specific one doesn't matter), and they were talking about flow:

    Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

    I think there might be parallels or similarities or other connections between flow and katastematic pleasure, ie ataraxia/aponia. I'd be interested to read anything from anyone who knows more about Csíkszentmihályi's work in this area.

  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - Pleasure Part Two

    Quote from Don

    Again, I think that "absence of pain" is something that is sensed but it doesn't arise from outside influences or causes. It is something felt "from inside." Felt. Sensed. Aponia "No pain" is a "state" or "condition" in which one feels untroubled in the body. Aponia and ataraxia are "things" felt in and of themselves, as much as joy (khara) and mirth/ good cheer (euphrosyne).

    Revising and extending my remarks:

    I implied in that quote that aponia = "absence of pain." I don't think that's right. Aponia and ataraxia are katastematic pleasures, just as khara and euphrosyne are kinetic pleasures. Hence, in my remarks above, they are all four sensed, perceived, etc.

    The actual description of "absence of pain" is usually spelled out in full, and it's not always that phrase in the original:

    Fragment 422. We need pleasure when in pain because of its absence; but when we are not experiencing such pain, and are perceiving stably, then there is no need for pleasure. For it is not the needs of nature which, from outside us, create harm, but desire driven by groundless opinions.

    Fragment 423. What brings unsurpassed joy is the removal of a great evil (μέγα κακόν mega kakon "great evil; ie, pain"); and this is the nature of the good, if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm and do not stroll about chattering emptily.

    Fragment 445. We must not blame the body for the greatest evils nor attribute our troubles to mere circumstance. Instead we seek their cause within the soul (psykhē "mind, soul, psyche"): for by giving up every trifling and fleeting desire we give birth to a confidence perfect in itself.

    I think I've looked at "every trifling and fleeting desire" recently in another thread, but the importance here is that "we seek their cause within the mind/soul." That fragment to me seems to say that the greatest pains/evils are generated from within the mind, and, to me, that implies that we also have access to the greatest pleasures from within our minds (as Metrodorus and Epicurus say in their texts).

    I think the sensation /recognition and enjoyment of the "absenceof pain" is itself ataraxia and aponia. The sensation of being in the condition or state of absence of pain in the body and freedom from disturbance in the mind is aponia and ataraxia. Just as engagement in a physical activity brings joy (khara) and mirth (euphrosyne).

  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - Pleasure Part Two

    Quote from Cassius

    The reason for the question is to harl back to the debate on "katastematic pleasure", which may may not be related to tranquility, and to ask whether indeed either or both of those terms is in fact a "sensual pleasure" at all. (This question is the theme of the Wentham essay in our files section.)

    There is a question as to whether it is indeed "sensual pleasure" which establishes how Epicurus recognizes the good, and whether "absence of pain" describes an identifiable sensual pleasure itself, or whether it describes instead a condition in which other / sensual pleasures are experienced without any mixture of pain or disruption.

    Thanks for that clarification, and mea culpa for not addressing your response earlier!

    Quote from Cassius

    the debate on "katastematic pleasure", which may may not be related to tranquility

    To that, I would say there doesn't seem to be much a debate to me. "Tranquility" = ataraxia = katastematic pleasure. Tranquility is usual/often translation of "ataraxia" which is specifically listed as a katastematic pleasure.

    Quote from Cassius

    to ask whether indeed either or both of those terms is in fact a "sensual pleasure" at all

    I'll admit I haven't read Wenham yet, but to your specific question there, I'd have to point back to:

    "Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved into its elements is without consciousness / sensations / perception, and that which is without consciousness / sensations / perception is nothing to us."

    Above being a statement of why to be free from the fear of death, I think PD2 is also a retort to the Cyrenaics: "Pleasure and pain are both ‘movements,’ according to the Cyrenaics: pleasure a smooth motion, and pain a rough motion. The absence of either type of motion is an intermediate state which is neither pleasurable nor painful. This is directed against Epicurus’ theory that the homeostatic state of being free of pain, need and worry is itself most pleasant. The Cyrenaics make fun of the Epicurean theory by saying that this state of being free of desires and pain is the condition of a corpse." (Source) (NOTE: The commentator here says "this state of being free of desires and pain" but I don't believe Epicurus said a "state of being free from desire" but free from disturbance. They're NOT the same thing.)

    Once Epicurus posited that there was no "neutral state," he had to basically say that any pleasure MUST be "sensual" in the sense (no pun intended) that it is sensed, it is perceived, that we are conscious of it. I don't think there can be such a thing as a non-sensual pleasure. It's an oxymoron. What would that even mean? Even if it is a pleasant memory, we *feel* the pleasure of the memory.

    Quote from Cassius

    There is a question as to whether it is indeed "sensual pleasure" which establishes how Epicurus recognizes the good, and whether "absence of pain" describes an identifiable sensual pleasure itself, or whether it describes instead a condition in which other / sensual pleasures are experienced without any mixture of pain or disruption.

    Again, I think that "absence of pain" is something that is sensed but it doesn't arise from outside influences or causes. It is something felt "from inside." Felt. Sensed. Aponia "No pain" is a "state" or "condition" in which one feels untroubled in the body. Aponia and ataraxia are "things" felt in and of themselves, as much as joy (khara) and mirth/ good cheer (euphrosyne).

  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Nine - The Letter to Menoeceus 06 - Pleasure Part Two

    Quote from Don

    I haven't reviewed Wenham's paper but my kinetic / katastematic opinion is that kinetic pleasures are predicated on external forces acting upon us, katastematic pleasures arise from within ourselves (within our own minds). I'll need to substantiate that with texts, but that's my starting point.

    I would point back to this post of mine:

    Post

    RE: Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion)

    This got longer as I continued to review this thread. This is enough for now! These are consolidated ancient and modern sources and some notes from my posts within this thread:

    Notes:

    Idea (revised): Biological homeostasis = aponia (freedom from pain in the body; everything is working as it should.

    Pathe "what is done or happens to a person or thing, opposite: πρᾶξις (praxis)" Praxis is the concrete aspect of pragma (genitive: pragmata).

    On perceived errors in Wikipedia: We can all be Wikipedia…
    Don
    July 17, 2022 at 10:31 PM

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