Posts by Don

On Joshua 's mention of "only Christians can be Epicureans" see this

Post

RE: Episode Ninety-Six - The Proof That Pleasure (And Not Virtue) Is the Supreme Good

If someone cares to trace the quotation back to the source, I see it attributed to this;

The Epicurean: A colloquy between Hedonius and Spudaeus, by Desiderius Erasmus [1466-1536]

Joshua

November 14, 2021 at 7:06 PM

It was Erasmus.

I debated whether to respond to Kalosyni 's post above, but, the more I thought about it today, the more I wanted to share my perspective on some of her thoughts. I am not saying either of us is "right" or "wrong," but I'm sharing my perspective. Please, Kalosyni , do not take any of this personally or as an ad hominem attack. It is sincerely not meant in that way! You bring a thoughtful, curious, personal perspective to this forum which I greatly appreciate. I hope I do the same and that my response below is in an Epicurean spirit of open, frank discussion.

Quote from Kalosyni

I think that ataraxia and aponia are important, however I view them differently -- because modern life is really at odds with being "pain free or untroubled".

My first thought on reading this was: If modern life - in fact, life in any time - is at odds with being "pain free or untroubled," why do we find this acceptable? I don't want to think that "that's just the way things are." I don't want to accept that.

I want to envision a way of living in the modern world in which my mind *can* be untroubled, in which I can face any issue that comes up with composure and clear thinking. I want to think it's possible to assess every choice before me without mental anxiety or worry or distress. That's what ataraxia is about for me. It is an achievable way of experiencing the world here and now. It's not some ideal, Platonic, unattainable state. I may not have it all the time, but I can see it as a goal to work toward and catch glimpses of it so I know it's real.

Same with aponia. Epicurus obviously couldn't have meant it as a literally "pain-free existence" because he tells us he was in excruciating pain at the time of his death. The only way to not feel pain is without sensation, and if one is without sensation, you're already dead. But he did say it was possible to experience something. He describes it in PD3 as "Where that which gives pleasure exists, during the time it is present, there is neither pain nor that which causes pain in body or mind nor either of these together." The word for pain is actually άλγος "pain (of either mind or body)", but also sorrow, trouble, grief, distress, woe. And aponia is actually from ἄπονος (aponos) which has connotations of "freedom from toil or trouble." So, (as DeWitt says it) it's the whole "sound mind in a sound body" idea. We can also work toward a healthy body that doesn't give us trouble. We're going to have some aches and pains as we grow old, but maintaining health will alleviate some of that trouble.

I think Epicurus is also suggesting we toil too much and trouble ourselves too much. I need to go back and re-read the full Property Management by Philodemus, but I seem to remember there are pertinent sections in there on that topic.

Quote from Kalosyni

We certainly wouldn't want to wait to be completely untroubled in order to enjoy life.

I agree completely, and I think Epicurus calls us to not wait to experience pleasure and to enjoy life. But I don't think we have to be "completely untroubled" to get a taste of what it might be like to live untroubled.

Quote from Kalosyni

an active modern life will bring us into "stressful" moments.

Quote from Kalosyni

things can be a mix of pleasure and stress -- for example going to a coffeehouse can sometimes be too noisy (or unpleasing music is playing), but as long as there is over-all more pleasure than stress we will choose this activity. Also over time what might originally feel stressful can be adapted to.

I couldn't put my finger on what bothered me with these, but I think it's the emphasis on "stress" and "stressful" here. I suggest replacing "stress" with "pain" to see how that feels. I can certainly see how "things can be a mix of pleasure and pain"; but, to me, the word "stress" adds an emotional dimension - "stress" is a way of adding our emotional reaction to the immediate feeling of pain. I'm not sure that's necessary if we're aiming at the (eventual) goal of well-being or ataraxia and aponia or happiness or completely pleasurable life. If sitting in the coffeehouse is too painful, move to a different coffeehouse. If the music can be ignored or one puts earbuds in to block the noise, do that.

So, I agree with the second part of that excerpt but again, I would advocate for not adding the emotional baggage of "stress". If one thinks of it as "stress" or anxiety or annoyance or something else, I think that feeds on itself. Pain is simply negative feeling without further judgement. If the pain is to be experienced to experience a greater pleasure, then sit with it. If the pain is simply painful, do everything to rid yourself of it. There is no virtue to "grin and bear it" for the sake of grinning and bearing it.

Quote from Kalosyni

life requires a certain amount of "striving" or work. Most people until they are retired work at a job to make money for the purpose of survival (there are stay-at-home moms which is a big job in itself). Striving brings with it a certain amount of stress, but hopefully we can find ways to adapt which isn't too stressful (or jobs which aren't too stressful). Then beyond this for people who are retired, life still needs some form of striving, or else the will to live diminishes. And the striving could be any type of interest or goal (big or small) which requires some effort but also feels engaging and important in some way. And striving will always bring with it a small amount of mental stress. I would say that it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming.

"Striving" struck the same chord in me as "stress/stressful." It will be a little less than a decade until I can consider retirement. I try to not constantly associate my job with stress, striving, and survival, although I admit there are days and situations that cause me pain, mostly mental. However, that again to me is an argument for working toward a mind that can think clearly and a body that isn't in pain. That word "striving" to me conjures Protestant work ethic, "idle hands are the devil's plaything," and similar themes. We can work toward goals, personal and professional, that aren't characterized by mental stress and striving. To me, the last sentence sums up the issue: "it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming." The way to make sure the "level of stress does not become overwhelming" is to cultivate the very freedom from trouble in the mind for which Epicurus appears to advocate.

Quote from Don

Choosing natural but unnecessary *desires*

No doubt some of you will notice I didn't include those desires neither natural nor necessary. That was deliberate on my part.

Those are characterized by the scholia to PD29 as:

Quote

by the neither natural nor necessary he means desires for crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour

It has been conjectured that Epicureans like Cassius Longinus et al were pursuing desires that were deemed "neither natural nor necessary" in their pursuit of politics or role in the Roman Civil War. I would posit this is not necessarily the case. My take is that the situation was disturbing to him in many respects. He wasn't (necessarily) looking for "crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour." I think there are parallels with Torquatus's Epicurean justifications for his ancestor's actions.

For those unfamiliar, as I was, with Cassius Longinus:

Gaius Cassius Longinus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Joshua

mead

Mead is having a bit of a renaissance lately. I must say I enjoy a glass every once in awhile and we have some excellent meadery establishments in the area including:

Order Online | Feisty Mead

Meadery | Cleveland,OH | Western Reserve Meadery

Western Reserve Meadery, a Cleveland, OH Meadery making a variety of mead styles (honey wines). Dry meads, sweet mead, sparkling mead, melomels and metheglins.…

www.westernreservemeadery.com

BottleHouse

The BottleHouse Brewery is an GABF award winning, community centric brewery, meadery and cidery. Focusing on barrel aged sours, real cider and artisanal mead.…

www.bottlehouse.co

I'm sure nothing surpasses Joshua 's homemade, balloon-pinhole method, but they all do a good job!

Quote from Kalosyni

Also I am wondering about getting entirely away from metaphors and just thinking about real life

I like that. Make it practical!

Quote from Kalosyni

I would wake up in the morning and ask myself "How can I bring more pleasure into my life?"

That's a good way to set your motivation and mindset.

Quote from Kalosyni

how one thinks of pleasure -- is it fun? is it sweetness? is it love? is it satisfaction? is it comfort? is it good health? is it a little food treat? or smelling roses or adding cinnamon to breakfast?

I would say it's all of those. All those describe pleasure.

As I think some more, I still am becoming enamored of the idea that a pleasurable life's foundation is a mind and body free from trouble, pain, and anxiety. Ataraxia and aponia. That's where it starts! That's the foundation upon we can build experiences of pleasure arising from natural desires, both necessary and unnecessary. Without that foundation, we are anxious that we won't be able to fulfill desires we want to choose; we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations; we fear the pleasure coming from our chosen desire won't last long enough. The fears, anxieties, and troubles can spiral out of control. If we have a sound mind in a healthy body, we can pluck the desires we find appealing with no mental anguish, large or small. If your mind is already at peace, sink your teeth into the ripe peach, experience the juice dripping down chin, close your eyes and taste the sensuous sweetness on your tongue. Experience the pleasure undimmed by some mental baggage because you're already at the limit of pleasure and the peach is varying that feeling.

I admit I'm still working through this, but, Thank you Kalosyni for bringing us back to a practical real world perspective!

I'm trying to think of ways to get away from the vessel metaphor.

To me, the boundaries of pleasure are reached, if using our reasoning, when the mind is free from trouble and the body is free from pain and there's a confidence that state will continue. That is the natural limit of *pleasure.*

Choosing natural but unnecessary *desires*, as Godfrey has conjectured elsewhere, vary our pleasure and this is where the work happens. But what does that mean? It, to me, changes neither the quality nor quantity of *pleasure*. The latter is self-evident because the natural "limit of pleasure" has been reached. But can it change the quality of pleasure since again the natural boundaries have been reached? What does it really mean to "vary" one's pleasure if the limit has been reached? Pleasure comes from choosing to act on desires. Again, as Godfrey stressed before, desire does NOT equal pleasure. The natural/necessary etc. descriptors modify *desire* not *pleasure* because all pleasure is good but just not choiceworthy.

How do we create a metaphor that gets at that connection between desires and pleasure??

Thought you might be interested in this:

https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Kharites.html

Quote from Don

Quote from Cassius

I dunno, I think a good metaphor is going to be extensible to cover the closely related issue of "What about variation?"

Okay, I'll give you that, but I don't like the idea of the spilling over as variation. It seems... messy.

I could see if the glass is tipped or jostled and there's spillage, that makes sense that the mind is still troubled and anxious. It's not steady.

But a variation analogy? I'm going to have to ponder that.

What about a change in state of what's in the glass? It could be liquid, it could be frozen, it could turn to wine, it could turn to orange juice.

I'm trying to get away from adding to it, because it's at it's natural limit but there can still be variation within the glass.

Still gonna have to ponder...

Quote from Cassius

I dunno, I think a good metaphor is going to be extensible to cover the closely related issue of "What about variation?"

Okay, I'll give you that, but I don't like the idea of the spilling over as variation. It seems... messy.

I could see if the glass is tipped or jostled and there's spillage, that makes sense that the mind is still troubled and anxious. It's not steady.

But a variation analogy? I'm going to have to ponder that.

Quote from Cassius

Staying with that full glass analogy for the moment, I would think that the glass "spilling" some because it is overfilled would have to be interpreted carefully.

If the glass is spilling because more is being poured into it, and the liquid simply overflows because new liquid is being added, I would see that as "variation" and not a bad thing (just not something that increases the total experience of pleasure.

On the other hand if the glass spills because it is jostled, and the liquid spills over the edge and thus the total liquid declines, that would be a bad thing from just about every perspective, I would think.

We may be taking the "full glass" metaphor further than is useful

Quote from Cassius

But on the other hand those two lives are not at all the same in many other respects

Expand on that. In what ways? (I'm not necessarily saying I disagree but for the sake of discussion, I can't just let that statement stand on it's own)

Quote from Don

once the glass is full, it's full. Whether the glass stays full a day or an infinite time, it's the same volume.

In rethinking my comment there, I want to emphasize that the goal is to keep the glass full all the time by having banished fear, anxiety, etc. until you die. I don't want it to be understood as Cassius 's being full "for a moment" comment. Because of the glass is full and you die tomorrow or you die 100 years from now, it's the same limit of pleasure.

PS: That's why I think ataraxia and aponia are necessary components in an Epicurean worldview / perspective / paradigm (take your pick). To me, that's what keeps the glass full while, at the same time, allowing one to experience the "limit of pleasure" while going about your daily routine of laughing, loving wisdom/philosophizing and tending to one's home life and using one's other goods. Having that glass full is what saturates ones life with pleasure and also allows one to enjoy the other pleasure of life unalloyed with anxiety or pain. There's no room for ascetism or self-mortification within that worldview.

Quote from Cassius

"Once the glass is totally empty, it's totally empty. Whether the glass stays empty for a day or for an infinite time, it's the same volume."

Emptiness is pain, dissatisfaction, anxiety, trouble.

Fullness is pleasure, joy, happiness, well-being.

Quote from reneliza

I will say, I think the whole thing makes sense together to say:

Once you realize that pleasure doesn’t increase beyond removal of all pain, you can see that as much pleasure can exist in a limited life as an unlimited one.

But I’m not certain if that’s how it was intended

Yes, reneliza , I think the way you've worded it is exactly how it was intended.

Basically, once the glass is full, it's full. Whether the glass stays full a day or an infinite time, it's the same volume. That's the "limit" of pleasure: the full glass.

I sometimes fall back on the idea that that which is outlined in our minds - the image of divinity writ as widely as possible - is nothing more than an innate capacity for awe, to be in awe of something larger than ourselves or something literally awe-inspiring, something encompassing our solitary mortal existence. Looking up into the stars, we feel awe at contemplating our insignificance in the face of the universe (Hey, hey! No getting depressed! That's not the point!). Taking in an expansive natural vista like Yosemite Valley from Tunnel View (photos are wholly inadequate!). We're taken out of ourselves in that moment, and I can surmise that an ancient Greek, confronted by the gigantic statue of Athena within the dimly-lit Parthenon, could experience that awe. Trying to come to terms with that feeling of awe could lead to this idea that it's tied up with divinity.

But it's just an idea.

It occurs to me that I've misinterpreted or mischaracterized the characters' motivation in The Good Place with respect to that way out of existence. Joshua , please feel free to weigh in

The people in the Good Place still experienced desires for novel experiences, still feared "death" (even though they were already dead), etc. However, those who expressed their readiness to, let's say, dissolve into the cosmos, expressed it as being at peace. The others couldn't understand the person! But there was acceptance, peace of mind, nothing holding them back, from just letting go. It was NOT boredom that led them to realize it was "time to go." They were fulfilled, at peace, etc. The ones being "left behind" were still afraid of "death", craving new experiences, or just wanting to relive the same experiences over and over.

There are a number of interpretations of this scenario, but an eternal, indestructible peace of mind a la an Epicurean god is not out of the question. Even so, we are NOT immortal nor can we be. So... The challenge to interpret pd19 continues.

I don't know if this will clarify or obfuscate matters, but I was inclined to parse the second phrase in PD19.

ἐάν τις αὐτῆς τὰ πέρατα καταμετρήσῃ τῷ λογισμῷ.

ἐάν = if

Both τις and αὐτῆς are feminine singular which, to me, seems to refer back to τὴν ἡδονὴν (pleasure) from the previous phrase which is also feminine.

τὰ πέρατα we've mentioned are "the limits" but, more precisely, defined as "end, limit, boundary"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πέρα^ς

In philosophy, a πέρας (singular) can refer to "the perfection" of something. LSJ gives cites including one to P.Herc 831.8 https://papyri.info/dclp/59491

which brings us to a dative construction in the last three words:

καταμετρήσῃ τῷ λογισμῷ

I find the idea of the "boundary" interesting in light of καταμετρήσῃ (noun singular feminine dative) "measuring out" from the verb καταμετρέω

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, καταμετρ-έω

...which could just mean "measure out" but could also refer to laying out a camp ("castrametation" a word I never read before), i.e., measuring out the area of an encampment or "assigning land held by military tenure." Joshua may find this interesting from a surveying perspective.

Finally, we come to τῷ λογισμῷ "to logismoi"

The basic definition of λογισμός "logismos" is "counting, calculation" or simply "calculation or reasoning" if not associated with numbers.

This is related to λόγος "logos" which is notoriously tricky to parse (and is even used to refer to Jesus as part of the Trinity "Ho Logos" "The Word"). Check out the LSJ definition:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λόγος

So, at its most basic, "to logismoi" could be parsed "by using one's logos" which puts us right back into the "notoriously tricky" parsing of what logos means. Reasoning is acceptable, but it carried a lot more connotations in ancient Greek. Hence my hobby horse/soap box about translators feeling they have to reduce complex connotations to one simple English word with its own linguistic baggage.

So, an alternative translation of the second phrase of PD19, *could* be:

"if pleasure (is) being measured out through the logos."

Take that for what its worth. LOL. You were expected clarity?

PS. I found that the prefix κατα- kata- in a word like καταμετρήσῃ katametrēsēi (kata + metrēsēi) can convey "fully, completely". metrēsēi is related to English meter, measure, etc. So we're getting a phrase that conveys something like measuring out or laying out the boundaries or limits fully and completely through the use of our reasoning powers, to fully understanding how pleasure impacts our life and not accepting a popular notion of the hoi polloi that pleasure is insatiable and expands infinitely, we must understand and internalize that pleasure has limits and boundaries that can be understood.

Quote from Kalosyni

Was the word used in this PD "hedone" or "eudaimonia" ?

hedone "pleasure" τὴν ἡδονὴν (ten hedonen - accusative case)

In reading this thread, I'm reminded of the TV show The Good Place.

***BIG SPOILER ALERT for anyone who hasn't seen the show and wants to experience it**"

*

*

*

You have been warned...

The basic premise is that, after you die, there is a Good Place and a Bad Place. First few seasons, the bar has been raised so high, most everyone goes to the Bad Place. Then we find later that those in the Good Place are bored out of their minds and miserable. The main characters are given the opportunity to remake The Good Place and let more people in. Which they do.

But, even given infinite time and given the opportunity to experience literally everything they could ever conceive of or imagine, they still eventually run out of things to experience. They come to a point where there's literally nothing new to experience! After countless eons of existence, they are then given the choice of dissolving back into their constituent "atoms" let's say, or dissolving back into the universe, or however you want to phrase it. The show is ambiguous. There's a place in the woods where you can walk through a gate and it just happens. It's not portrayed as suicide because they're by definition already dead. But some of the other characters see it that way when another character realizes they're "ready to go."

Anyway, it's hard to explain, but this whole idea that we need infinite time to experience infinite pleasure brought this to mind.

If anyone else has watched The Good Place, I'd be interested to get your take on any applicability to our current discussion that you see.

btw: it seems I brought up this same point in January with a response from Joshua in a discussion about Buddhism and the Epicurean gods :

Post

RE: 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

That seems to be a solid epitome to me! Well done!

[…]

This always intrigued me about the Buddhist gods on the wheel of samsara: They're so blissed out and pleasure-filled, they can't conceive of not being reborn as a god (to greatly simplify the situation).

Which got me thinking: How does this apply to the Epicurean gods ? They are supposedly experiencing pleasure all the time. Is that correct? Isn't this just another form of "harps in heaven"? Would a blissful, pleasure-filled eternity get…

Don

January 30, 2022 at 2:57 PM

Just came across this paper:

The Epicurean Morality of Vergil's "Bucolics"

Vergil's "Bucolics" can be read as an Epicurean therapy to heal the disturbance of civil war.

www.academia.edu

I skimmed it, but it's an interesting take on comparing Lucretius' work with Vergil's Bucolics and Georgics.