Posts by Don

*ships*

book 1, card 80: ... Making his child a sacrificial beast To give the ships auspicious winds for Troy: Such are the crimes

book 1, card 238: ... our face and frame, Unseen, and swamp huge ships and rend the clouds, Or, eddying wildly down

book 5, card 324: ... arts are being still Refined, still increased: now unto ships Is being added many a new device;

book 5, card 1436: ... ; already Would the sea flower and sail-winged ships; Already men had, under treaty pacts,

book 6, card 423: ... Aroused by puffing gusts; and whatso'er Of ships are caught within that tumult then Come into

I find this line of thinking interesting...

Ask Ethan: Will The End Of Our Universe Give Rise To A New One?

Has all this happened before, and will all this happen once again?

www.forbes.com

Is heat death reversible by thermal or quantum fluctuations given an infinite time?

I'm new here, so apologies if the question doesn't sound meaningful considering what physics is supposed to answer. I don't have a physics or mathematics…

physics.stackexchange.com

Evidently, I needed to search the plural:

**shores**

book 1, card 1: ... without thee naught Is risen to reach the shining shores of light, Nor aught of joyful or of

book 1, card 146: ... are all, Each birth goes forth upon the shores of light From its own stuff, from its ... arrive and pregnant earth Safely may give unto the shores of light Her tender progenies? But if from

book 1, card 705: ... straits, Swift ocean cuts her boundaries from the shores Of the Italic mainland. Here the waste

book 2, card 333: ... the sea Beats on the thirsty sands of curving shores. Wherefore again, again, since seeds of things

book 2, card 522: ... masts and swimming oars, so that afar Along all shores of lands are seen afloat The carven fragments ... is the wildered wail Of infants coming to the shores of light: No night a day, no dawn

book 2, card 581: ... are to be adjudged Unfit to give unto the shores of light A living progeny. The Galli come:

book 2, card 991: ... in earth sinks back, and what was sent From shores of ether, that, returning home, The vaults of

book 4, card 199: ... what a point of time An image from the shores of ether falls Unto the shores of earth? Wherefore, again, And yet again, '

book 4, card 379: ... the huge plains of ocean spread beneath The vasty shores of ether, and intervene A thousand lands, possessed

book 4, card 522: ... raucous boomings, or when swans By night from icy shores of Helicon With wailing voices raise their liquid

book 5, card 195: ... when nature first Hath poured him forth upon the shores of light With birth-pangs from within the

book 5, card 449: ... settle, but too much to glide Along the upmost shores; and yet they are In such a wise

book 5, card 772: ... parturition had decreed To raise in air unto the shores of light And to entrust unto the wayward

book 5, card 1379: ... of men, And reason uplifts it to the shores of light. These tunes would soothe and glad

book 5, card 1436: ... of men, And reason uplifts it to the shores of light. For one thing after other did

book 6, card 608: ... frame, And neighbours on the seas, girdling their shores, The water's wet must seep into the

book 6, card 738: ... thence the under-gods draw down Souls to dark shores of Acheron- as stags, The

Got it! Good one! Thanks!

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 146

Again, why see we lavished o'er the lands

At spring the rose, at summer heat the corn,

The vines that mellow when the autumn lures,

If not because the fixed seeds of things

At their own season must together stream,

And new creations only be revealed

When the due times arrive and pregnant earth

Safely may give unto the shores of light

Her tender progenies? But if from naught

Were their becoming, they would spring abroad

Suddenly, unforeseen, in alien months,

With no primordial germs, to be preserved

From procreant unions at an adverse hour.

Looking up the Latin:

in luminis oras

"In partic., the coast, sea-coast"

Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, ōra

*search: shore*

book 1, card 238: ... of touch. And raiment, hung by surf-beat shore, grows moist, The same, spread out before the

book 5, card 1: ... could he inflict on us Along the Atlantic shore and wastes of sea?- Where neither one of

book 6, card 470: ... Besides, the clothes hung-out along the shore, When in they take the clinging moisture, prove

Do you know the line number of the "shores of light"? It doesn't seem to come up as a phrase in the Leonard translation on Perseus.

I first came to be curious about allusions to nautical topics within the Epicurean texts - from Epicurus himself onward - when I saw commentary on the fact that ataraxia (and ataraktos) not only semantically means "calmness" and "tranquility" but also had the connotation (or could be applied to) the calmness of the sea, still water with no waves and no trouble for the mariners.

It makes perfect sense. The ancient Greeks were a sea-faring, island-dwelling culture. No polis was that far from a shoreline. Athens itself was connected to its port "suburb" Pireaus by the Long Walls.

However, what I like the most, is that it gives a concreteness, a solidity, to the philosophy. As some have said, ataraxia is a hard term to understand if you don't know Greek. But tell someone to imagine a sea with the water still, no choppy waves, reflecting the sunshine and clouds, and maybe it gets easier to understand what ataraxia means.

Consider this a start only, a working draft if you will. If anyone has any favorites or any questions on whether a particular word or phrase falls into this category, consider this an open thread for everyone.

Fragment 163

παιδείαν δὲ πᾶσαν, μακάριε, φεῦγε τἀκάτιον ἀράμενος.

* Flee from all indoctrination, O blessed one, and hoist the sail of your own little boat. (personal translation)

1. τἀκάτιον = (to) akation "light boat, small sail" < ἄκατος "light vessel, boat, ship", in Modern Greek "dinghy, small skiff"

-ιον = noun-forming diminutive suffix

2. ἀράμενος < ἀείρω = "get ships under sail"

Note the ambiguity of ἀκάτιον meaning both a small (diminutive) boat and small sail being used synonymously.

Metaphor: self-reliance, setting sail free of indoctrination or acculturation

Vatican Saying 17

οὐ νέος μακαριστὸς ἀλλὰ γέρων βεβιωκὼς καλῶς· ὁ γὰρ νέος ἀκμῇ πολὺς ὑπὸ τῆς τύχης ἑτεροφρονῶν πλάζεται· ὁ δὲ γέρων καθάπερ ἐν λιμένι τῷ γήρᾳ καθώρμικεν, τὰ πρότερον δυσελπιστούμενα τῶν ἀγαθῶν ἀσφαλεῖ κατακλείσας χάριτι.

* It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of.

1. ἐν λιμένι < λῐμήν "harbor; haven, retreat, refuge"

2. καθώρμικεν < καθορμίζω "bring a ship into harbor, bring to anchor"

Note: κατακλείσας < κατακλείω (not nautical, but interesting: literally means to be "shut in, confined; enclosed, e.g., a mummy in its case; close a speech, conclude" This is the word evidently translated as "secure". χάριτι = dative "by/through/for gratitude."

Metaphor: An elder is "secure" in their gratitude for the pleasures they've experienced, those memories are safely docked in a harbor.

Variations on γᾰλήνη "stillness of the sea, calm; calmness, serenity"

Aeschylus: metaph., φρόνημα νηνέμου γαλάνας "spirit of serenest calm"

Metaphor: The calm sea without turbulence or waves is comparable to the calmness and serenity of the mind.

Letter to Herodotus, 37

Ὅθεν δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ, παρεγγυῶν τὸ συνεχὲς ἐνέργημα ἐν φυσιολογίᾳ καὶ τοιούτῳ μάλιστα ἐγγαληνίζων τῷ βίῳ ἐποίησά σοι καὶ τοιαύτην τινὰ ἐπιτομὴν καὶ στοιχείωσιν τῶν ὅλων δοξῶν.

* Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this, have prepared for you just such an epitome and manual of the doctrines as a whole.

1. ἐγγαληνίζων τῷ βίῳ "spend life calmly, serenely"

Letter to Herodotus, 83

Τοιαῦτα γάρ ἐστιν, ὥστε καὶ τοὺς κατὰ μέρος ἤδη ἐξακριβοῦντας ἱκανῶς ἢ καὶ τελείως, εἰς τὰς τοιαύτας ἀναλύοντας ἐπιβολάς, τὰς πλείστας τῶν περιοδειῶν ὑπὲρ τῆς ὅλης φύσεως ποιεῖσθαι: ὅσοι δὲ μὴ παντελῶς τῶν ἀποτελουμένων εἰσίν, ἐκ τούτων καὶ κατὰ τὸν ἄνευ φθόγγων τρόπον τὴν ἅμα νοήματι περίοδον τῶν κυριωτάτων πρὸς γαληνισμὸν ποιοῦνται.

* It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind.

1. γαληνισμὸν "calming" as used here by Epicurus; also used by Aristotle to mean "calming of the conscience" (Arist. Ep.5): πρὸς γαληνισμὸν ποιοῦνται can be paraphrased as "productive for the calming (of their minds) like a waveless sea"

Lucretius, On the Nature of Things (Perseus search)

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 1

"ship"

book 2, card 522: ... joining into one. But, just as, after mighty ship-wrecks piled, The mighty main is wont to

book 4, card 379: ... Nor lightly think our senses everywhere Are tottering. The ship in which we sail Is borne along, although it seems to stand; The ship that bides in roadstead is supposed There to ... Seem fleeing fast astern, past which we urge The ship and fly under the bellying sails. The stars

book 4, card 877: ... these twain factors, severally, Body is borne like ship with oars and wind. Nor yet in these... subtle body, Yet pushes, driving on the mighty ship Of mighty bulk; one hand directs the same

book 5, card 988: ... Out to disaster: for the science bold Of ship-sailing lay dark in those far times. Again

book 6, card 1002: ... thereof, Shoves it and pushes, as wind the ship and sails. The same doth happen in all

"sea" - 50 results

book 1, card 1: ... Immortal charm. Lull to a timely rest O'er sea and land the savage works of war, For

book 1, card 146: ... thing, No fixed seed required. Men from the sea Might rise, and from the land the scaly

book 1, card 205: ... each? Whence may the water-springs, beneath the sea, Or inland rivers, far and wide away,

book 1, card 238: ... 'Tis clear, are sightless bodies sweeping through The sea, the lands, the clouds along the sky, Vexing

book 1, card 763: ... ; for these Same germs do put together sky, sea, lands, Rivers, and sun, grains, trees, and breathing

book 1, card 1002: ... And mountain walls hedge air; land ends the sea, And sea in turn all lands; but for the All ... single nature, ne'ertheless Immeasurably forth.... Nor sea, nor earth, nor shining vaults of sky, Nor

book 1, card 1083: ... those Of earth and water (liquid of the sea, And the big billows from the mountain slopes

book 2, card 1: ... beholdest forth Thy fleets to swarm, deploying down the sea: For then, by such bright circumstance abashed,

book 2, card 333: ... With shells and conchs, where, with soft waves, the sea Beats on the thirsty sands of curving shores.

book 2, card 660: ... sprouting from man's trunk, Limbs of a sea-beast to a land-beast knit, And nature

book 2, card 1048: ... commencements fit Of mighty things- the earth, the sea, the sky, And race of living creatures. Thus

book 2, card 1105: ... world, ere since The risen first-born day of sea, earth, sun, Have many germs been added from... them on, Brought hither, that from them the sea and lands Could grow more big, and that

book 2, card 1144: ... The mortal generations to the fields; Nor sea, nor breakers pounding on the rocks Created them;

book 3, card 487: ... if to vomit soul, As on the salt sea boil the billows round Under the master might

book 3, card 830: ... to which the empery should fall By land and sea, thus when we are no more, When comes... then- No, not if earth confounded were with sea, And sea with heaven. But if indeed do feel The

book 3, card 1024: ... , he- Who whilom paved a highway down the sea, And gave his legionaries thoroughfare Along the

book 4, card 199: ... one instant of the day, and fly O'er sea and lands and flood the heaven, what then

book 4, card 217: ... The wet of a salt taste, when by the sea We roam about; and so, whene'er we

book 4, card 414: ... the sky. Again, to gazers ignorant of the sea, Vessels in port seem, as with broken poops

book 4, card 777: ... Directly we desire- if heart prefer The sea, the land, or after all the sky? Assemblies

book 4, card 1121: ... green light are set in gold; And rich sea-purple dress by constant wear Grows shabby and

book 4, card 1233: ... her bosom Now yielding like the billows of the sea- Aye, from the ploughshare's even course and

book 5, card 1: ... us Along the Atlantic shore and wastes of sea?- Where neither one of us approacheth nigh

book 5, card 110: ... bridled by religion, thou suppose Lands, sun, and sky, sea, constellations, moon, Must dure forever, as of frame... exist a tree, Nor clouds in the salt sea, nor in the fields Can fishes live, nor

book 5, card 195: ... ; And cliffs, and desert fens, and wastes of sea (Which sunder afar the beaches of the lands... why Doth nature feed and foster on land and sea The dreadful breed of savage beasts, the foes

book 5, card 261: And for the rest, that sea, and streams, and springs Forever with new waters

book 5, card 351: ... the sky, against the sun and earth And deep-sea waters, but wide open stands And gloats upon

book 5, card 380: ... inundations vast From forth the unplumbed chasms of the sea. But vain- since winds (that over-sweep

book 5, card 416: ... oft the commencements fit Of mighty things- earth, sea, and sky, and race Of living creatures.

book 5, card 432: ... The lofty heavens from the lands, and cause The sea to spread with waters separate, And fires of

book 5, card 449: ... their mass those particles Which were to form the sea, the stars, the sun, And moon, and ramparts

book 5, card 495: ... one unaltered urge, the Pontus proves- That sea which floweth forth with fixed tides, Keeping one

book 5, card 772: ... the land-dwellers ever have come up Out of sea-pools of salt. How true remains, How merited

book 5, card 988: ... lightly too; Nor soft seductions of a serene sea Could lure by laughing billows any man

book 5, card 1028: ... , the flying race, the dappled birds, Hawks, ospreys, sea-gulls, searching food and life Amid the ocean

book 5, card 1194: ... ? When, too, fierce force of fury-winds at sea Sweepeth a navy's admiral down the main

book 5, card 1436: ... All portioned out and boundaried; already Would the sea flower and sail-winged ships; Already men had

book 6, card 121: ... ; As when along deep streams or the great sea Breaks the loud surf. It happens, too, whenever

book 6, card 246: ... to forge. Besides, full often also out at sea A blackest thunderhead, like cataract Of pitch

book 6, card 379: ... ? Then for what reason shoots he at the sea?- What sacrilege have waves and bulk of brine

book 6, card 423: ... self into the waters there And rouses all the sea with monstrous roar, Constraining it to seethe. It

book 6, card 470: ... moisture, prove That nature lifts from over all the sea Unnumbered particles. Whereby the more 'Tis manifest

book 6, card 495: ... Whilst the winds bear them o'er the mighty sea, Like hanging fleeces of white wool. Thuswise,

book 6, card 577: ... such omnipotent Convulsions on the land, and in the sea Engulfed hath sunken many a city down

book 6, card 608: ... the random rains And flying tempests, which spatter every sea And every land bedew; add their own springs... drop. Wherefore 'tis less a marvel that the sea, The mighty ocean, increaseth not. Besides, ... garments dripping all with wet; And many a sea, and far out-spread beneath, Do we behold

book 6, card 639: ... a sudden move, And fierce typhoons can over sea and lands Go tearing on, and Aetna's ... though yet All these, with sky and land and sea to boot, Are all as nothing to the

book 6, card 680: ... Tumultuous power. Besides, in mighty part, The sea there at the roots of that same mount ... sucks back its surf. And grottos from the sea pass in below Even to the bottom of ... water and air] Deeply to penetrate from the open sea, And to out-blow abroad, and to up

book 6, card 703: ... may bar His mouths against his onward waves, when sea, Wild in the winds, tumbles the sand to

book 6, card 879: ... fountain far There is at Aradus amid the sea, Which bubbles out sweet water and disparts

book 6, card 906: ... The wet of a salt taste, when by the sea We roam about; and so, whene'er we

Quote from Cassius

This is probably a good example of a field in which lots of caution and consideration of multiple possibilities even "waiting" is appropriate

It could also be an example of someone not wanting to accept the preponderance of evidence and wanting to cling to an "alternative" pet theory.

I know some who have considered Belize.

Yes, I'd like to hear from Martin. I get the impression it's not really much of a debate within the scientific community. This article seems to be more a sensational journalistic angle. Plus the article's author is an anti-big bang proponent to begin with. It's not like the JWST data revealed the big bang didn't happen. The researcher could be cherry picking.

Webb does not debunk the Big Bang... This video cited that exact article...

"This is simply not true. The JWST has not provided evidence disproving the Big Bang theory, and cosmologists aren't panicking. Why, then, are we seeing viral social media posts and funky headlines that suggest the Big Bang didn't happen at all?

To answer that question, and show why we should be skeptical of claims like this, we need to understand where the idea came from."

No, James Webb Space Telescope Images Do Not Debunk the Big Bang

The JWST provides an intriguing look at the early universe, but it's not yet rewriting fundamental theories of the cosmos.

www.cnet.com

Quote from Don

Tell you what, it's getting late. I'm going to hold off commenting on the remainder of the article until tomorrow... Stay tuned

I've decided to not respond to the remainder of the article. It seems an exercise in frustration, so I'll decide the pain is not going to lead to more pleasure for me.

What it has inspired in me is a desire to delve into the nautical and aquatic metaphors and connotations in the Epicurean texts. The word that sealed that for me is γαλήνη. Stay tuned for a new thread at some point.

My only goal in those posts is to make sure we're not arguing against a Stoic strawman. Just as we're not keen on people stereotyping or willfully misrepresenting Epicureanism, I think it behooves us to be sure not to do the same to the rivals of the school.

I'll admit I know too little of the classical Stoics. I'm much more familiar with the stereotypes.

Here's a review of a book by the article's author on emotions and classical Stoics

Stoicism and Emotion – Bryn Mawr Classical Review

I don't want to derail this thread but thought Cassius might be interested in these:

Star Trek’s Stoics: The Vulcans | Issue 106 | Philosophy Now

as Philosophy: Spock as Stoic Sage

It has been suggested that Gene Roddenberry, the creator of the original Star Trek series (TOS), more or less consciously built the equivalent of a…

link.springer.com

Plus there appear to be a lot more of the like our there!!

Quote from Cassius

Stoicism = Theistic Vulcanism

Okay, for the sake of curiosity, I'm going to try and pull out some excerpts that intrigued/bothered me in the article. I'm not reading ahead so if I react to something the author clarifies later, I'll admit that. Bear with me if you like. If you're looking for well-crafted, thought-out prose, you won't find it here. I fully realize this post went way too long. Just sayin' All quotes are from there unless otherwise noted:

Quote

This talk was given at Stoicon in Toronto on October 14, 2017. The topic of the conference was “Stoicism in the Workplace.”

Right of the bat, I'm expecting a less-than-reliable portrayal of Epicurus and his philosophy. Go on...

Quote

• unmoved apathetic calm
• impassive serene unflappable
• tranquil unfeeling placid
• unsentimental unemotional unruffled

If you are like me and like my students, you can easily identify several of these words as negative words that you would not want to hear applied to yourself. Others are more complimentary; some might even be neutral. But the point of interest here is that if you make the effort to strip away the positive or negative valence of these words, all of them mean pretty much the same thing: they describe a person who doesn’t respond emotionally in situations where many people would.

Okay, this annoys me and seems to be a strawman argument. There's a reason we have different words in English. Each may be similar but there are shades of meaning that are important. Otherwise, we wouldn't bother with different words! The author's point of "if you make the effort to strip away the positive or negative valence of these words" is counterproductive and disingenuous. They're basically saying "if you make the effort to strip away the definitions of these words and let me substitute my own watered down meaning." By Zeus, I'm not even past the first paragraph.

Quote

bringing oneself closer to the dispassionate life

If the author is trying to say Epicureanism is a "dispassionate life," I will not be onboard with that. In fact, Diogenes Laertius relates that "(Epicurean) Sages are greatly affected by the pathē (i.e., more so than other people) but this doesn't hinder their progress to wisdom."

Quote

We’re going to need some terminology. Our word “emotion” is a class term, it names the category whose members are anger, grief, fear, delight, eagerness, and whatever else we think is of that kind. If we look for equivalent words in Greek as spoken in the fourth century BCE, we find two possibilities. One is pathos, ‘a way of being affected’; corresponding to the Latin word affectus. The other is tarachē, ‘a disturbance’, for which the Latin equivalent is perturbatio. I do not intend to make any distinction between these two terms. Some authors favor one or the other, but the meaning is the same, or at least near enough to allow for the comparisons I’ll be making here.

Okay, gritting teeth again. There's a reason there were different words! So, there's a reason that "some authors favor one or the other"! Is the author going to equate apatheia with ataraxia? I can see it coming. Go on...

Quote

The same goes for two related words that alternate in the record for the Greek philosophies we’ll be looking at. From pathos was derived the term apatheia, the a- prefix indicating a lack or absence. That one I’ll usually translate “impassivity.” And similarly, the word tarachē gets an a prefix and becomes ataraxia, which I’ll usually translate “non-disturbedness”. Either way, we have a word tied to the idea of a life without emotion, without yet specifying what exactly such a life might be.

AND there it is! I would not define ataraxia as "the idea of a life without emotion"! Isn't joy an emotion? Is the author ruling out feeling joy later on?

Quote

Crantor’s consolation must have said, as most of these pieces do, “it’s OK to cry for a while, anyone would”—but then he turns philosopher and adds,

I cannot by any means agree with those who extol some kind of impassivity (apatheia). Such a thing is neither possible nor beneficial. I do not wish to be ill, but if I am, and if some part of my body is to be cut open or even amputated, let me feel it. This absence of pain comes at a high price: it means being numb in body, and in mind scarcely human. — Crantor, quoted by Cicero, Tusc. Disp. 3.10

It's actually Tusc. Disp. Book 3.6 not 10. And I'm always skeptical of someone saying "X must have said" when we don't have any access to X. Here's the full context of that citation...

Cicero’s Tusculan Disputations, On the Nature of the Gods, On the Commonwealth

Quote from Cicero in Tusculan Disputations 3.6

Crantor, who was one of the most distinguished men that our Academy has ever produced, say this amiss: “I am by no means of their opinion who talk so much in praise of I know not what insensibility, which neither can exist, nor ought to exist”. “I would choose,” says he, “never to be ill; but should I be so, still I should choose to retain my sensation, whether there was to be an amputation or any other separation of anything from my body. For that insensibility cannot be but at the expense of some unnatural ferocity of mind, or stupor of body.”But let us consider whether to talk in this manner be not allowing that we are weak, and yielding to our softness. Notwithstanding, let us be hardy enough, not only to lop off every arm of our miseries, but even to pluck up every fibre of their roots. Yet still something, perhaps, may be left behind, so deep does folly strike its roots: but whatever may be 97left it will be no more than is necessary. But let us be persuaded of this, that unless the mind be in a sound state, which philosophy alone can effect, there can be no end of our miseries. Wherefore, as we began, let us submit ourselves to it for a cure; we shall be cured if we choose to be. I shall advance something further. I shall not treat of grief alone, though that indeed is the principal thing; but, as I originally proposed, of every perturbation of the mind, as I termed it; disorder, as the Greeks call it: and first, with your leave, I shall treat it in the manner of the Stoics, whose method is to reduce their arguments into a very small space; afterward I shall enlarge more in my own way.

I'll admit I skipped the Cynics section.

Now, the author begins to paint Epicurus with the "emotionless" brush.

Quote

The goal of Democritus’s ethics was a good state of mind, euthumia, defined as “a calm and stable existence, not disturbed by any fear or superstition or any other emotion” (Diogenes Laertius 9.45)

Okay, so euthumia was Democritus's telos or goal, not Epicurus's. And did not Epicurus call Democritus the Lerocritus (the nonsense-monger)? That said I'm curious about the author's citation of Democritus in DL IX.45:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius IX.45 on Democritus

[45] All things happen by virtue of necessity, the vortex being the cause of the creation of all things, and this he calls necessity. The end of action is tranquillity, which is not identical with pleasure, as some by a false interpretation have understood, but a state in which the soul continues calm and strong, undisturbed by any fear or superstition or any other emotion. This he calls well-being and many other names. The qualities of things exist merely by convention ; in nature there is nothing but atoms and void space. These, then, are his opinions.

The author makes mention of Epicurus's nautical and water-based metaphors, which I do find interesting. Tell you what, it's getting late. I'm going to hold off commenting on the remainder of the article until tomorrow... Stay tuned.

Thank you for the thought-provoking responses!

Quote from Kalosyni

That's great and I also think it is highly dependent upon life circumstances. So perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled --.

I think being "untroubled" or having peace of mind regardless of circumstances is the goal of "philosophy" or seeking wisdom. But let me expand on that idea...

Quote from Kalosyni

once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace

I'm not sure my circumstances are all as rosy as you might assume from the list you've provided about your assessment of my circumstances, but that's all I'll say about those. If we wait to have peace of mind until our lives are somehow subjectively perfect to an outside observer (or to ourselves), it will never happen. We humans will always find some goal unattainable, some aspect unsatisfactory, and we can think "If I can resolve that, then I can live "untroubled" or to have "peace of mind."" My position is that "peace of mind" or ataraxia is achievable regardless of circumstances. To me, that is the goal of a practical philosophy which one lives. It's not "mind over matter" or ignoring problems or wearing rose-colored glasses. It's assessing each situation - each choice and avoidance - with a clear mind, with practical wisdom, and with a clear goal in mind...which, in the case of Epicurus' philosophy, is to lead a more pleasurable life tomorrow than I did today. I often - always! - fall short of that goal, but it's a goal nonetheless that I continually try to keep in mind even though I am a novice at best this Epicurean gig.

Quote from Kalosyni

And as such it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

I agree that Epicureanism is not a philosophy for the "well-to-do" only. His philosophy attracted the most down-trodden members of ancient Greek society but also kings and wealthy Romans. So, I also fully agree with you that "the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth." That is my point in the previous paragraph. I would simply substitute "level of wealth" for "circumstances" and say ""the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's circumstances." Do we end up agreeing on that?

Quote from Kalosyni

For example, it may appear that there is no way to change or improve one's situation -- but if 10 years later things CAN change -- what do you do while you are waiting to get there? You enjoy life the best you can!

Absolutely! You carpe the diem while the sun shines to mix metaphors. But I wouldn't encourage people to think of their lives as "waiting to get" something. The idea is to enjoy the little things as well as the big things every day.

Quote from Kalosyni

I realize my own life reflects a situation in which I was not happy (living in an unpleasant house) and it took me 8 years to figure out what to do differently, to start moving in a different direction.

I'm sincerely glad that you were able to get out of an unhappy situation! Inertia, habit, and complacency are powerful forces (speaking from personal experiences both large and small).

Quote from Kalosyni

I still stand by my word choice of "striving" -- because some of us need to choose to strive toward happiness, and strive to move toward pleasure. I suppose another choice of words would be "put in some effort" -- because we need to put in some effort into creating a good life.

I respect your decision to stand by your word. I personally have negative feelings toward that word for various reasons, so I may be inferring connotations that you're not intending. I like "put in some effort".

That said, Epicurus, to me, calls us to consider carefully what we are striving or struggling for. Is the goal worth the effort? Will the goal actually bring us happiness and well-being and pleasure, or is it a goal imposed on us by indoctrination of culture or empty desires?

I appreciate your willingness to engage on these topics. Your responses help me sharpen my mind and ask myself what it is I believe. These are some fundamental questions!

Kalosyni 's closing comment and final "Seize the day!" genuinely made me smile while listening on my way to work this morning. I thought they were spot on!

Hey mention of the Death Cafe brought to mind the current "death positive" movement to get people to talk openly about death, dying, burials, etc. I think it's a good idea. Two major figures include Caitlin Doughty and Cole Imperi. You can Google them.

School of American Thanatology

americanthanatology.com

https://caitlindoughty.com/

Hmmm. Lots to react to, both in the article and in Cassius 's response. That'll be for later this evening (I do not know how Cassius can go from not having read the article to having long, thoughtful passages in a couple hours! That's genuinely impressive!)

My first reaction is that this is a Stoic writing a Stoic perspective for a Stoic audience. That's gonna leave a mark.