Posts by Don

My understanding is that aponia has to do with pain in the body, ataraxia with disturbance in the mind

Quote from Cassius

For the time being it seems to me to be most clear if we try to describe as precisely as we can what we are saying, even if it takes a number of words to do that

Yep, generally agree with your post. And the excerpt here is exactly what I'm trying to do.

For the record, I don't *think* I'm being syncretic or building some "cafeteria-style" Epicureanism in having this perspective. Mindfulness is not native to any one culture. It is not some esoteric spiritual thing. Research in secular settings has shown its applicability separated from any one tradition. "Flavors" of it show up in any number of traditions and cultures, both Eastern and Western. And I think it's inherent in human nature, just suppressed, ignored, or not encouraged. And I find evidence for it in the extant texts as I mentioned above as a sample.

I didn't mean that to sound as defensive as it does btw but there you go.

(Steps off soapbox)

Thanks for sharing that, Godfrey. It sounds like you've found one way to get at making sound choices and rejections.

Quote from Godfrey

Tranquility is a pleasant, potential byproduct of mindfulness but it's not the goal, it's not the process and, depending on the situation it's not always possible. But I'm finding that the practice can be useful for Epicurean living.

See, that's where using the word "tranquility" presents issues. I'd like to emphasize that using that word sets up several hurdles to overcome in really integrating ataraxia and aponia in one's life (to even better experience joy and other daily pleasures).

To me, Epicurus is calling us to be more "mindful" of - to be more aware of, to pay attention to - the pleasure that surrounds us every day all the time. As references, I'd cite:

**His reminder that "bread and water" can bring as much pleasure as a luxurious meal if we're hungry. Don't miss the pleasure of a simple basic everyday meal.

**To laugh and administer our household affairs at the same time as we expound our love and practice of wisdom.

**"Meditate day and night then on this and similar things by yourself as well as together with those like yourself. And never, neither awake nor in sleep, throw yourself into confusion, and you will live as a god among humans; because no person who lives among eternal pleasures is like a mortal being."

We miss SO many pleasurable experiences if we're distracted, anxious, worried, angry, selfish, friendless, dishonorable, unjust, etc. That's what being mindful means! Pay attention to what's happening to you and stop being distracted. The pathē - the "feelings" - are literally in the Greek "what is happening to you."

Mindfulness is NOT the *act* of meditating. Mindfulness can grow out of meditation (in various forms) but mindfulness (itself a loaded term these days) is also NOT something special, or something one sets time aside for. It is fully paying attention to our daily lives, to truly experience what is happening without being distracted. Meditation - including working to memorize the Principal Doctrines or deeply studying a particular text or even reliving the details of a pleasant memory - is one way to strengthen that attention, but the *goal* is to carry that ability to pay attention throughout one's day and one's life. We are constantly distracted, tossed about on waves of anxiety, by planning for this or by regretting that or by instantly being angered by some perceived slight and wallowing in our self-righteous indignation. Calming *those* waves is what I interpret ataraxia and aponia to mean. There are studies that show mindfulness can help even with chronic pain management which gets at the aponia of that equation. That's the daily experience of "tranquility" - a pleasure in and of itself - I think that Epicurus is pointing his students toward. That's how we can rival the gods, by paying attention to the pleasure, the joyful experiences, that surround us in everyday life. We don't have to strive and struggle and work *for* pleasure. It surrounds us in our everyday experiences IF we just pay attention and calm the waves that toss our little boat around the sea.

(Note: I need to admit I'm only recently coming around to this perspective after thinking about Epicurus's philosophy these past several years, but it's the one that resonates with me. And I am NOT in any way shape or form a paragon or epitome of ataraxia, mindfulness, or anything else. But... I can see the value in it for trying to lead a more pleasurable life, so I'm going to try to integrate it into my life a little at a time.)

Edit: in thinking more about this this morning, I want to add that my understanding of mindfulness is that it is not passivity. It's not being a doormat and passively "taking what comes" in a fatalistic attitude. It's NOT Stoically accepting fate. If someone or something is going to harm you, it's being aware of the danger and acting skillfully to avoid or confront the danger. Not panicking, not "losing it." If something makes you angry, to be aware of the "sting" of anger but not to get carried away by it but to skillfully work with it and not get swept away in rage and do something you'll regret. All that, to me, equates with having a calm mind, allowing one to skillfully and wisely make choices of what to avoid and what to pursue.

Quote from Kalosyni

Mindfulness sometimes could end up being too focused inward or on inner sensations.

I don't think so. In listening to Siegel's audiobook, I'm seeing mindfulness as a way of interacting with everyday experience, not something that comes and goes or has a singular focus or is something someone "does" but rather how they experience their lives (while practicing the skill to make it more readily available in everyday life). This page from Positive Psychology sort of gets at where I'm beginning to come from:

What Is Mindfulness? Definition + Benefits (Incl. Psychology)

What mindfulness is, how it originated & why it has become so popular.

positivepsychology.com

Quote

According to the American Psychological Association (APA.org, 2012), mindfulness is:

“…a moment-to-moment awareness of one’s experience without judgment. In this sense, mindfulness is a state and not a trait. While it might be promoted by certain practices or activities, such as meditation, it is not equivalent to or synonymous with them.”

As we can see, mindfulness is a state that can be brought on through practice. It’s not static, nor are some people ‘born more mindful’ than others. It involves awareness, and impartiality about what we gain from this awareness. In an age of social media, where opinions, likes, and commentary are more than forthcoming, it’s easy to see how non-judgmental reflection can be a welcome change.

and later

Quote

Cambridge Dictionary

“[Mindfulness is] the practice of being aware of your body, mind, and feelings in the present moment, thought to create a feeling of calm.” (Emphasis added)

This idea of a grounded, calm awareness from which to clear-headedly (is that a word?) assess what is happening to you to better decide what to pursue and what to reject seems - to me - to be why Epicurus would lay just emphasis on "that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind" (Menoikeus, 131) and on "the health of the body and... the tranquility of the mind" (Menoikeus, 128)

Quote from Kalosyni

the whole "tranquility problem"

See, I don't see this as a problem at all. I'm more and more thinking ataraxia is more akin to mindfulness as an adequate translation than "tranquility." Tranquility conjures up mystical mind states (not that mindfulness doesn't nowadays, but bear with me), but mindfulness is a way of interacting with daily life.

Quote from Pacatus

“For ataraxia, ultimately and simply, is a physical undisturbedness.” [That is, not simply a mental state.]

https://www.academia.edu/34402398/What_…card=view-paper (p. 458)

In taking another look at that quote, I would call "a physical undisturbedness" aponia instead of ataraxia.

I'm leaning toward Metrodorus in his fragments. Here's what I posted in another thread:

"Metrodorus, in his book On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects, says: 'What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?'"

This, to me, points to the "source" - "the sound state of the flesh" (to sarkos eustathes *katastema*) - being a more confident source of pleasure than "objects" (kinetic pleasure). It does NOT say the source "in ourselves" is "better (more value)" just that we can be more "sure" of its continuance - I would add - because we have control over it.

Quote from reneliza

It looks like the "Epicurean" series is a line of more adventurous flavors so maybe they have something more palatable than a spicy pickle?

That's what I discovered after googling it too

Quote from Cassius

I. sorry if I missed it but Don did you agree with MFS' translation? I don't see any brackets there so preumably this part is not reconstructed (?)

Yes, I'd agree with Smith and your assumption that this part is not reconstructed. Using that French link, we can see that large stretches of the wall are actually intact.

In looking at Menoikeus 125 in conjunction with the wall, I'm definitely leaning toward seeing "τῶν τε λυπῶν τὰς μὲν κ̣εν̣ὰ̣ς ἐξεκόψαμεν" as referring to completely excising pains that are fruitlessly or unnecessarily experienced. Those pains that one needlessly experiences, probably stemming from trying to satisfy groundless desires.

Quote from reneliza

I'd try it...

Is it a sour?

LOL I have no idea. I haven't had the nerve to purchase a can. I like my beer, but pickle flavored? Oh, it appears to be a gose sour ale.

Epicurean Spicy Pickle

Few things are better than cracking open that big barrel of spicy pickles at the general store, knowing in short order you'll reach a tart, salty, spicy bliss.…

artifactbeer.com

Epicurean Series - Spicy Pickle | Urban Artifact

Epicurean Series - Spicy Pickle is a Gose style beer brewed by Urban Artifact in Cincinnati, OH. Score: 88 with 22 ratings and reviews. Last update: 09-26-2022.

www.beeradvocate.com

I was curious to see where Epicurus uses λύπη "pain, distress, etc" or its variants elsewhere and found:

PD3 Ὅρος τοῦ μεγέθους τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡ παντὸς τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος ὑπεξαίρεσις. ὅπου δ’ ἂν τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐνῇ, καθ’ ὃν ἂν χρόνον ᾖ, οὐκ ἔστι τὸ ἀλγοῦν ἢ τὸ λυπούμενον ἢ τὸ συναμφότερον.

The limit of the magnitude of pleasure (is) the whole of the removal of that which causes pain. Where that which gives pleasure exists, during the time it is present, there is neither pain nor that which causes pain in body or *in the mind* nor either of these together. ( Don)

PD10 Εἰ τὰ ποιητικὰ [τῶν περὶ τοὺς ἀσώτους ἡδονῶν] ἔλυε τοὺς φόβους τῆς διανοίας τούς [τε περὶ μετεώρων καὶ θανάτου καὶ ἀλγηδόνων], ἔτι τε τὸ πέρας τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν ἐδίδασκεν, οὐκ ἄν ποτε εἴχομεν ὅ τι μεμψαίμεθα αὐτοῖς, πανταχόθεν ἐκπληρουμένοις τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ οὐδαμόθεν οὔτε τὸ ἀλγοῦν οὔτε τὸ λυπούμενον ἔχουσιν, ὅ περ ἐστὶ τὸ κακόν.

If the things that produced the delights of those who are decadent washed away the mind’s fears about astronomical phenomena and death and suffering, and furthermore if they taught us the limits of our pains and desires, then we would have no complaints against them, since they would be filled with every joy and would contain not a single pain or distress (and that’s what is bad). (Saint-Andre)

Menoikeus 125

οὐθὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ ζῆν δεινὸν τῷ κατειληφότι γνησίως τὸ μηθὲν ὑπάρχειν ἐν τῷ μὴ ζῆν δεινόν. ὥστε μάταιος ὁ λέγων δεδιέναι τὸν θάνατον οὐχ ὅτι λυπήσει παρών, ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι λυπεῖ μέλλων. ὃ γὰρ παρὸν οὐκ ἐνοχλεῖ, προσδοκώμενον κενῶς λυπεῖ. τὸ φρικωδέστατον οὖν τῶν κακῶν ὁ θάνατος οὐθὲν πρὸς ἡμᾶς, ἐπειδήπερ ὅταν μὲν ἡμεῖς ὦμεν, ὁ θάνατος οὐ πάρεστιν· ὅταν δ᾽ ὁ θάνατος παρῇ, τόθ᾽ ἡμεῖς οὐκ ἐσμέν. οὔτε οὖν πρὸς τοὺς ζῶντάς ἐστιν οὔτε πρὸς τοὺς τετελευτηκότας, ἐπειδήπερ περὶ οὓς μὲν οὐκ ἔστιν, οἱ δ᾽ οὐκέτι εἰσίν.

For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living. So, the one who says death is to be feared is foolish, not that there will be pain and distress when it is present but that there is pain in anticipation; because that which is present does not trouble, disquiet, or annoy, and anticipation itself pains and distresses one fruitlessly. Death, that which causes utter horror, which causes one to shudder, that "most utterly horrifying of pains" as it is understood by the hoi polloi, then is nothing to us. On the one hand, at the time when we are (that is while we are living), death is not present; on the other hand, whenever death is present, then we are not (that is, we don't exist). Death is neither a concern for those who are living nor for those whose lives are ended.

I found κενῶς λυπεῖ interesting because one of the best ways to translate that is "distressing one fruitlessly" which may give a sense of Diogenes' wall.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

For anyone who's interested, here is the Greek text for the inscription:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

And that's exactly what we need to address Kalosyni's question! Thank you!

Fragment 2, column 6, lines 5-14

γύρω ματαίως [κ]ατ[έχον-]

τας ἡμᾶς φόβους [ἀ-]

πελυσάμεθα, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ τῶν τε

λυπῶν τὰς μὲν κ̣εν̣ὰ̣ς

ἐξεκόψαμεν εἰς τέ-

λειον, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ τὰς δ̣ὲ φυσικὰς

εἰς μεικρὸν κομιδῇ

συνεστείλαμεν, ἐλα-

χιστιαῖον αὐτῶν τ̣[ὸ]

μέγεθος ποι̣ή̣σ̣α̣[ντες]

λυπῶν τὰς μὲν κ̣εν̣ὰ̣ς = lypōn tas men kenas

λυπῶν = pain (of mind or body), suffering, affliction, distress

κ̣εν̣ὰ̣ς = same word used throughout Epicureanism for void, empty, groundless, vain, etc.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm coming to think of katastematic pleasure as generated within myself. As Epicurus does, I include ataraxia and aponia in that category. Kinetic pleasures I'm coming to think of as being generated from taking part in an activity like dancing, sex, eating, relaxing, etc.

Granted, I need texts to back up my intuition but that's where I'm headed.

So to connect this to Pacatus post above, I'd agree that fear is manifest or felt in the body and mind; however, I'd say it originates in the mind since it can be demonstrated that two people can have very different reactions to the same stimuli. Removal of that fear then leads to ataraxia in the mind.

Check this out, too:

L'inscription philosophique d'Oenoanda - Persée

It has drawings of the fragments of the inscription!

For anyone who's interested, here is the Greek text for the inscription:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Quote from waterholic

It's funny how you can get even religion out of the people but not the instinctive hatred and mistrust of pleasure

Well put!

Political Animals: Pathetic Animals, in R. Balot (ed.), A Companion to Greek and Roman Political Thought, Oxford, Wiley-Blackwell, 2009, pp. 10-17.

Political Animals: Pathetic Animals, in R. Balot (ed.), A Companion to Greek and Roman Political Thought, Oxford, Wiley-Blackwell, 2009, pp. 10-17.

www.academia.edu

I'm not keen on someone posting a work still under copyright, BUT, until it's taken down, we might as well profit from it

This book has some interesting sections, especially the one starting on p 485.

One thought: the authors talk about the Garden being a residential community where all the Epicureans lived together. I'm still not convinced that this was the case. I can imagine some students and senior teachers lived there but it seems more likely it was a "commuter" school. This opinion of mine partially comes the fact that enslaved people were welcomed. Those people would have lived at their masters house and would have attended Garden classes on their "days off" I would assume. Same with women - I would assume were mostly hetairai since those women had the most freedom of movement in ancient Greece from my understanding.

I'm any case, an interesting book with scatterings regarding Epicurus in it.

Quote from waterholic

I have been raised in a completely non-religious environment

Lucky you!

So your upbringing would fall under the first or second category of Epicurus's "some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power."