Posts by Don

Define "respectable"...

Theognis of Megara - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The quote is actually from Theognis. Here's the section in my commentary:

Which brings us to the last section of verse 126 where Epicurus directly quotes - word for word - from the Elegiac Poems of Theognis

Theognis, lines 425-428:

"The best lot of all for man is never to have been born nor seen the beams of the burning Sun; this failing, to pass the gates of Hades as soon as one may, and lie under a goodly heap of earth."

In Greek:

πάντων μὲν μὴ φῦναι ἐπιχθονίοισιν ἄριστον

μηδ᾽ ἐσιδεῖν αὐγὰς ὀξέος ἠελίου:

φύντα δ᾽ ὅπως ὤκιστα πύλας Ἀΐδαο περῆσαι καὶ κεῖσθαι πολλὴν γῆν ἐπαμησάμενον.

Now, compare that highlighted section from Theognis to line 126g in the Letter to Menoikeus:

126g. πολὺ δὲ χείρων καὶ ὁ λέγων καλὸν μὲν μὴ φῦναι, Φύντα δ᾽ ὅπως ὤκιστα πύλας Ἀΐδαο περῆσαι.

Those seven words of Epicurus's are clearly meant to be a quote. He paraphrases the first section about it being good to not have been born at all, then quotes Theognis to bring it on home. Theognis calls it ἄριστον "the best" to not have been born; Epicurus simply says that "they say it is καλός." With this being the case then, my recommendation would be to always translate that phrase within "quotation marks" to emphasize Epicurus's erudition and awareness of the common sayings of his day.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

That's my own photo taken mere minutes before I posted.

Wait what? You are in DC? Then will we see some photos of you at the Jefferson Memorial?

Not sure if I'll make it there, but I made it to the mothership of libraries, so... Quest completed!

PS: It is called the Jefferson Building of the Library of Congress after all

Oh, and the boxes are ones they're still trying to replace.

This may help:

https://www.loc.gov/item/52060000/

Quote from Cassius

do you have the link for that image?

That's my own photo taken mere minutes before I posted.

Copies of Lucretius in the Jefferson Library exhibit of the Library of Congress. In DC for work. This stop was pleasure. Yellow ribbons, same exact editions as Jefferson. Green ribbons, Jefferson's own books.

Diogenes in Book 2 has a lengthy bio of Aristippus with a summary of Cyrenaic philosophy and some contrasts with Epicurus:

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK II, Chapter 8. ARISTIPPUS (c. 435-350 B.C.)

Kalosyni 's done a good job of laying out some of the basics above. There's a Wikipedia article I'm not sure was linked to yet:

Existential therapy - Wikipedia

Wikipedia is always good for an overview and links to other resources. That said, we know its limitations (Reference: Epicureanism). It's certainly not a one-to-one correspondence of Existentialism/Existential Therapy and Epicurean philosophy.

This has made me wonder what an Epicurean Therapy would entail and how that would differ from and be similar to other philosophical therapies.

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing your interest in this area, Kalosyni . Here's my take so far:

• From the information above, it looks like there are parallels as well as divergences between Epicureanism and Existential Therapy.
• The idea that Epicurean philosophy is a therapy of sorts is, to me, on target: philosopher's words are empty if they do not heal the suffering of mankind. For just as medicine is useless if it does not remove sickness from the body, so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul. Whether that's Existential Philosophy or not is, of course, open to discussion but one that could prove interesting.
• I do like this: "Existential therapy posits that we are free to choose among alternatives, and thus we are responsible for our lives, actions and any failure to take action." I have always taken Epicurus to be concerned with personal responsibility. We are responsible for our own actions/choices whether it's for pleasure or for matters of justice.
• I found the section on Existential Anxiety interesting:
  • Anxiety is seen by existential therapists as being a condition of living, naturally arising from a person’s striving to survive. This is known as ‘existential anxiety’ and is a normal outcome of facing the four ultimate concerns in life: death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness.
    Once existential anxiety is recognised, it can be dealt with constructively. Anxiety can be a stimulus for growth as we become aware of and accept our freedom. If we have the courage to face ourselves and the challenges of human life, we may be frightened but we can change.
    
  • We've had a discussion on anxiety and stress elsewhere on the forum recently, but it appears to me that this aspect of Existential Anxiety has parallels with my position on anxiety. I fully concur that "‘existential anxiety’ and is a normal outcome of facing the four ultimate concerns in life: death, freedom, isolation and meaninglessness," and it seems that both Epicureanism and Existential Therapy strive to alleviate "existential anxiety." Epicurus simply calls this fear of the gods, fear of death, etc. From that brief excerpt, it doesn't appear that Existential Therapy works to eliminate existential anxiety, but it does appear to try and equip people to deal constructively with it. That does appear parallel to Epicureanism.
• Finding meaning in life is a by-product of engagement, which is a commitment to creating, loving, working and building. I'll admit I'm uneasy about "finding meaning in life." For me, the search from some transcendental meaning in life is a fool's errand. The universe is not aware of our existence, nor is there some hidden meaning. That said, we can lead a pleasurable life nonetheless and take joy in living. It seems to me that "finding meaning in life" is just a socially-acceptable way of saying that you are taking pleasure in the things to which you decide to dedicate your life. (insert sarcasm) Heavens! Taking pleasure in them is *surely* not sufficient!! (/sarcasm)

Those are just a few initial reactions. There does seem to be a movement advocating philosophers are therapists, so Kalosyni 's thread here looking at Existential Therapy is a great place to start!

Philosophy as Therapy

A lot of philosophers I know need therapy.  I can’t think of too many I know I would want to be my therapist, however.  What do philosophers know about…

www.philosophytalk.org

Philosophical counseling - Wikipedia

I've come to take the "nothing" in that phrase to not mean "trivial, meaningless" but rather literally as "no thing." For us, death is a "not a thing", it doesn't exist for us. There is no thing that exists for us individually that is death. When we are, death is not. When we die, we cannot experience anything called "death."

I can say, "my grandmother is dead" but that in no way implies that she is now experiencing some state of existence called "death." She is not *literally* dead. She is not experiencing death. "She is dead" is only a conventional way to say she is no longer alive. The way we construct our language implies a dead person is experiencing death. But really, death is nothing.

Quote from Don

The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many

I want to state that that "withdrawal from the many" doesn't necessarily need to be physical. It is also a withdrawal from the beliefs of the many. The actual word used is ἐκχωρήσεως ek-khōrēseōs which literally means to remove oneself from the chorus as in a Greek tragedy performance. "ἐκχορεύω to break out of the chorus"

PS. That to me doesn't encourage solitude or being a hermit, but breaking away from what everyone else is saying, as the chorus spoke with one voice. To me, it is the same vein as "set sail in your own little boat free from indoctrination."

Quote from Kalosyni

Don -- Can you post the links to translation entries for the Greek words ataraxia and eponia on the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀτα?́ρ-ακτος

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀτα^ρ-αξία

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Α α, , ἀπονία , ἀπονία

Quote from Kalosyni

I think this is a very important Epicurean principle to consider -- that we are going to navigate through the world neither numb, nor frenzied -- and maybe a better word than "calm" would be "grounded" (?)

I like "grounded" It even hints at a connotation of a "foundation on which to build" that is becoming my understanding of ataraxia.

Quote from Kalosyni

VS 11 - "For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied.

I like that VS. To me, it speaks to the unsatisfied way many people experience their lives. This VS to me also is a direct refutation of the Cyrenaic position of a frenzied pursuit of one momentary pleasure after another without taking time to neither calmly reflect on pleasures of the past nor to anticipate the pleasures of the future. Here's my translation:

For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.

The "rest" there is hesykhias which also shows up in PD14:

The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, after having obtained a certain degree of security with respect to other men by means of comfort and prosperity.

Quote from Cassius

We do not disagree - that is why I said "full description."

I didn't think we did, but I wanted to enter my current position/understanding into the record with regard specifically to tranquility's place in Epicurean philosophy and practice and to encourage discussion from others.

Quote from Cassius

But there are others out there in the world who insist that "tranquility" IS a sufficient description of the Epicurean goal, and that is my reason for the rhetorical question.

The rhetorical question isn't always best left unanswered. In fact, the way you posed that question - from my perspective - is a perfect jumping off point to make the argument for pleasure as the goal.

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure as defined by normal definitions includes both joy and delight and tranquility. The reverse is not the case in normal or academic discourse - tranquility is not considered to include joy and delight.

I agree. Academic commentators who elevate ataraxia and aponia at the expense of khara and euphrosyne do seem disingenuous or even dishonest. Those four are given together in the infamous katastematic/kinetic categorization. Epicurus included all four of these in his definition of pleasure. That is one of the fundamental doctrines that distinguished his philosophy from the Cyrenaics. He recognized the pleasures of sex, pleasant sights, etc. in the moment like them but also recognized the pleasure of calm, equanimity, and tranquility when a person returns to balance and (to use the modern term) homeostasis.

Quote from Cassius

As I see it f we want to convey that we value both goals in the online world of discussing Epicurus, the global word which must be emphasized is Pleasure.

No argument there.

Quote from Cassius

Pleasure is clearly communicated to be the goal, and we can all pursue Pleasure in whatever form we find pleasurable.

I push back on (or clarify) that statement a little as it's stated to say that not *everything* one finds pleasurable should *necessarily* be pursued. All pleasures are good but not all pleasures should be chosen if a pleasurable life is the goal . We must choose wisely.

Quote from Cassius

That's exactly what the elevation of "katastematic pleasure" has done in many cases - dilute and demote the sweeping nature of the word "pleasure." And whether we like it or not, people who focus on "tranquility" and "katastematic pleasure" as replacements for "pleasure" are everywhere in modern online discussion of Epicurus, so this is an issue to keep constantly in mind.

Yes, I don't think "katastematic pleasure" should stand alone at the expense of "kinetic pleasure." But, in regards to my post #10, I also contend that we shouldn't denigrate or dilute the role tranquility can play in an Epicurean life and practice. Note: I don't think you're doing that, Cassius , but I think it needs to be stated explicitly and to be kept in mind (no pun necessarily intended).

Quote from Cassius

When you and Epicurus both accept that you have been nonexistent for an eternity before death and will be nonexistent for an eternity after you die, do you really think that Epicurus taught that the full description of all you want out of life is to be "calm"?

Of course not, that's not the full description. However, calmness/tranquility of the mind was without question part of the life he promised if one put his philosophy into practice in their life.

I personally welcome the opportunity to face life with a tranquil mind. I want the ability to make decisions calmly, without feeling buffeted by the waves of chance or to rashly react. I want to feel the bite of grief when I lose someone but not to dwell in that grief forever, returning eventually to calm acceptance and to honor them with joyful remembrance of the past. I want to feel free from anxiety and needless stress and to instead live a life that allows me to embrace challenges with clear eyes and a calm mind with realistic expectations. Having tranquility doesn't mean going through life numb and unfeeling. To me, it means embracing the moments in front of you, being able to savor those, plucking the fruit of the day, without being tossed about by anxiety, anger, stress, without worrying about the future or regretting the past. One can plan for the future without worry and anxiety. One can learn from the past without regret.

I fall short of all these goals to various degrees, but Epicurean philosophy gives me a map by which to steer my boat to a calm harbor in the distance from which I can venture out but to which I can also return.

Of potential interest

Speed Under Sail of Ancient Ships — TAPA 82:136‑148 (1951)

DISTANCE AND COMMUNICATION

New Interactive Map Calculates Travel Times in Ancient Rome

www.livescience.com

Article about this site...

ORBIS: The Stanford Geospatial Network Model of the Roman World

Quote from Kalosyni

Just pondering: How many times might Epicurus have sailed either across or in the Aegean Sea?

Samos to Athens

Athens to Colophon

Colophon to Mytilene

Mytilene to Lampsacus

Lampsacus to Athens

But maybe other trips as well?

Display More

That's a good inventory!

There could have been other trips. I vaguely remember that he went to visit one of the Asia Minor/Ionian "gardens" but maybe he sent one of the other founders.

But I get the idea sea travel wasn't to be taken lightly.

Quote from Joshua

Quote

A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.

Hadn't heard that one. John Augustus Shedd.

"Set sail in your own little boat, blessed one, free from all indoctrination!"

Fascinating

Visual snow - Wikipedia

Yep, definitely need to search the plural AND singular forms...

*seas*

book 1, card 1: ... thou walkest forth to lead, And thence through seas and mountains and swift

streams, Through leafy homes

book 1, card 185: ... not prepare Men of a bulk to ford the seas afoot, Or rend the mighty mountains with their

book 1, card 238: ... with eld and foul decay, Or when salt seas eat under beetling crags. Thus Nature ever by

book 1, card 705: ... and flows In mighty bend and bay the Ionic seas, Splashing the brine from off their gray-green

book 5, card 91: ... by empty promises- behold, Before all else, the seas, the lands, the sky: O Memmius, their threefold

book 5, card 261: ... with his rays dissolves) Do minish the level seas; in part because The water is diffused underground

book 5, card 380: ... with his rays dissolves) Do minish the level seas and trust their power To dry up all,

book 5, card 449: ... extend the vast Cerulean zones of all the level seas, Caved in, and down along the hollows poured

book 5, card 988: ... nor would then The ramping breakers of the main seas dash Whole argosies and crews upon the rocks.

book 5, card 1436: ... Shows us a footprint. Sailings on the seas, Tillings of fields, walls, laws, and arms, and

book 6, card 357: ... both cold and heat Are mixed in the cross-seas of the year, So that a discord rises... account these seasons of the year Are nominated "cross-seas."- And no marvel If in those times

book 6, card 423: ... come down, Discharged from on high, upon the seas. For it haps that sometimes from the sky descends Upon the seas a column, as if pushed, Round which the... until 'tis like a column from sky Upon the seas pushed downward- gradually, As if a Somewhat ... from out the cloud it rushes Down on the seas, and starts among the waves A wondrous seething,

book 6, card 608: ... porous through her frame, And neighbours on the seas, girdling their shores, The water's wet must... briny ocean, as from lands it comes Into the seas. For brine is filtered off, And then the