Posts by Don

An official 501(c)3 organization would be an interesting (but serious) avenue to take:

Charities and Nonprofits | Internal Revenue Service

www.irs.gov

Strict by-law, filing, board, and reporting requirements. If there was a philosophical Epicurean 501(c)3 nonprofit organization, I wonder if we'd be able to provide certification for people to perform weddings. That'd be interesting.

Out of curiosity, I did a quick search of non-profit organizations at the IRS website looking for 'epicur' and found:

National Epicureans Incorporated

National Epicureans Inc

Eat, Drink, and Be Merry!

nationalepicureansinc.org

North Galveston Epicurean Education Center Inc. https://northgalveston.org/

Epicurean Charitable Foundation (ECF)

About ECF - Epicurean Charitable Foundation

The Epicurean Club of Boston

Baton Rouge Epicurean Society

Baton Rouge Epicurean Society - Restaurant in Baton Rouge, LA

Baton Rouge Epicurean Society in Baton Rouge, LA. Call us at (225) 572-0802. Check out our location and hours, and latest menu with photos and reviews.

www.bresbr.org

Quite the eclectic group of organizations!!

Quote from reneliza

Quote from Don

One more thought then I'll step off the soapbox:

I was just listening to a podcast (specific one doesn't matter), and they were talking about flow:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28p…%29?wprov=sfla1

I think there might be parallels or similarities or other connections between flow and katastematic pleasure, ie ataraxia/aponia. I'd be interested to read anything from anyone who knows more about Csíkszentmihályi's work in this area.

Oh gods no don't get me started on flow, because I have THEORIES

Seriously though, tying flow to katastematic pleasure (specifically, emotional regulation and thereby ataraxia/mental non-disturbance) is a really interesting concept I was thinking about yesterday (in slightly different wording) and will probably make it into an upcoming episode of my podcast

Display More

I'm curious if you're "for" the idea of flow being connected somehow to katastematic pleasure or "against" the idea I'm legitimately unsure from the way you worded that.

I also think there's some connection between mindfulness and ataraxia/aponia. This excerpt from this article makes me go "Hmmm?"...

Quote

Mindfulness, the awareness that arises from paying attention to the present moment without resistance, is a fertile environment for flow to appear. However, being mindful does not guarantee flow, but rather creates the optimal conditions for flow to happen.

Mindfulness and flow both live “in the here and the now” and involve engaging the present moment with willingness. While flow happens during pleasant experiences, mindfulness can happen all of the time.

I do think ataraxia happens here and now, a calm abiding in the present moment. I'm especially intrigued by that "flow happens during pleasant experiences."

For those unfamiliar with flow, here's an article from Positive Psychology:

8 Traits of Flow According to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes 'Flow' as a state of complete absorption.

positivepsychology.com

Oh, and I have no dog in this flow fight. Consider these my musings on a possible interesting connection.

Quote from reneliza

Oh gods no don't get me started on flow, because I have THEORIES

Seriously though, tying flow to katastematic pleasure (specifically, emotional regulation and thereby ataraxia/mental non-disturbance) is a really interesting concept I was thinking about yesterday (in slightly different wording)

Oh, you have to share now! Don't leave us hanging!

One more thought then I'll step off the soapbox:

I was just listening to a podcast (specific one doesn't matter), and they were talking about flow:

Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think there might be parallels or similarities or other connections between flow and katastematic pleasure, ie ataraxia/aponia. I'd be interested to read anything from anyone who knows more about Csíkszentmihályi's work in this area.

Quote from Don

Again, I think that "absence of pain" is something that is sensed but it doesn't arise from outside influences or causes. It is something felt "from inside." Felt. Sensed. Aponia "No pain" is a "state" or "condition" in which one feels untroubled in the body. Aponia and ataraxia are "things" felt in and of themselves, as much as joy (khara) and mirth/ good cheer (euphrosyne).

Revising and extending my remarks:

I implied in that quote that aponia = "absence of pain." I don't think that's right. Aponia and ataraxia are katastematic pleasures, just as khara and euphrosyne are kinetic pleasures. Hence, in my remarks above, they are all four sensed, perceived, etc.

The actual description of "absence of pain" is usually spelled out in full, and it's not always that phrase in the original:

Fragment 422. We need pleasure when in pain because of its absence; but when we are not experiencing such pain, and are perceiving stably, then there is no need for pleasure. For it is not the needs of nature which, from outside us, create harm, but desire driven by groundless opinions.

Fragment 423. What brings unsurpassed joy is the removal of a great evil (μέγα κακόν mega kakon "great evil; ie, pain"); and this is the nature of the good, if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm and do not stroll about chattering emptily.

Fragment 445. We must not blame the body for the greatest evils nor attribute our troubles to mere circumstance. Instead we seek their cause within the soul (psykhē "mind, soul, psyche"): for by giving up every trifling and fleeting desire we give birth to a confidence perfect in itself.

I think I've looked at "every trifling and fleeting desire" recently in another thread, but the importance here is that "we seek their cause within the mind/soul." That fragment to me seems to say that the greatest pains/evils are generated from within the mind, and, to me, that implies that we also have access to the greatest pleasures from within our minds (as Metrodorus and Epicurus say in their texts).

I think the sensation /recognition and enjoyment of the "absenceof pain" is itself ataraxia and aponia. The sensation of being in the condition or state of absence of pain in the body and freedom from disturbance in the mind is aponia and ataraxia. Just as engagement in a physical activity brings joy (khara) and mirth (euphrosyne).

Quote from Cassius

The reason for the question is to harl back to the debate on "katastematic pleasure", which may may not be related to tranquility, and to ask whether indeed either or both of those terms is in fact a "sensual pleasure" at all. (This question is the theme of the Wentham essay in our files section.)

There is a question as to whether it is indeed "sensual pleasure" which establishes how Epicurus recognizes the good, and whether "absence of pain" describes an identifiable sensual pleasure itself, or whether it describes instead a condition in which other / sensual pleasures are experienced without any mixture of pain or disruption.

Thanks for that clarification, and mea culpa for not addressing your response earlier!

Quote from Cassius

the debate on "katastematic pleasure", which may may not be related to tranquility

To that, I would say there doesn't seem to be much a debate to me. "Tranquility" = ataraxia = katastematic pleasure. Tranquility is usual/often translation of "ataraxia" which is specifically listed as a katastematic pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

to ask whether indeed either or both of those terms is in fact a "sensual pleasure" at all

I'll admit I haven't read Wenham yet, but to your specific question there, I'd have to point back to:

"Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved into its elements is without consciousness / sensations / perception, and that which is without consciousness / sensations / perception is nothing to us."

Above being a statement of why to be free from the fear of death, I think PD2 is also a retort to the Cyrenaics: "Pleasure and pain are both ‘movements,’ according to the Cyrenaics: pleasure a smooth motion, and pain a rough motion. The absence of either type of motion is an intermediate state which is neither pleasurable nor painful. This is directed against Epicurus’ theory that the homeostatic state of being free of pain, need and worry is itself most pleasant. The Cyrenaics make fun of the Epicurean theory by saying that this state of being free of desires and pain is the condition of a corpse." (Source) (NOTE: The commentator here says "this state of being free of desires and pain" but I don't believe Epicurus said a "state of being free from desire" but free from disturbance. They're NOT the same thing.)

Once Epicurus posited that there was no "neutral state," he had to basically say that any pleasure MUST be "sensual" in the sense (no pun intended) that it is sensed, it is perceived, that we are conscious of it. I don't think there can be such a thing as a non-sensual pleasure. It's an oxymoron. What would that even mean? Even if it is a pleasant memory, we *feel* the pleasure of the memory.

Quote from Cassius

There is a question as to whether it is indeed "sensual pleasure" which establishes how Epicurus recognizes the good, and whether "absence of pain" describes an identifiable sensual pleasure itself, or whether it describes instead a condition in which other / sensual pleasures are experienced without any mixture of pain or disruption.

Again, I think that "absence of pain" is something that is sensed but it doesn't arise from outside influences or causes. It is something felt "from inside." Felt. Sensed. Aponia "No pain" is a "state" or "condition" in which one feels untroubled in the body. Aponia and ataraxia are "things" felt in and of themselves, as much as joy (khara) and mirth/ good cheer (euphrosyne).

Quote from Don

I haven't reviewed Wenham's paper but my kinetic / katastematic opinion is that kinetic pleasures are predicated on external forces acting upon us, katastematic pleasures arise from within ourselves (within our own minds). I'll need to substantiate that with texts, but that's my starting point.

I would point back to this post of mine:

Post

RE: Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion)

This got longer as I continued to review this thread. This is enough for now! These are consolidated ancient and modern sources and some notes from my posts within this thread:

Notes:

Idea (revised): Biological homeostasis = aponia (freedom from pain in the body; everything is working as it should.

Pathe "what is done or happens to a person or thing, opposite: πρᾶξις (praxis)" Praxis is the concrete aspect of pragma (genitive: pragmata).

On perceived errors in Wikipedia: We can all be Wikipedia…

Don

July 17, 2022 at 10:31 PM

I haven't reviewed Wenham's paper but my kinetic / katastematic opinion is that kinetic pleasures are predicated on external forces acting upon us, katastematic pleasures arise from within ourselves (within our own minds). I'll need to substantiate that with texts, but that's my starting point.

Barley Pita Bread

When many think of Greek Food, they think of pita bread.  In truth, the Ancient Greeks enjoyed all sorts of breads, both flat and formed, but I thought it…

anthrochef.com

Okay, this one looks interesting. Not sure how "ancient" it is with yeast and wheat flour, but this is what I have in mind to try with the other recipes

I'm wondering if using a method like chapatis would work better:

Indian Chapati Bread

This chapati recipe for soft, Indian flatbread is simple to make on the stovetop, delicious with spicy curries, and can be used as a sandwich wrap.

www.allrecipes.com

Quote from Kalosyni

This seems to say that the barley grains were roasted and then ground into flour:

https://www.romanobritain.org/2-arl_food/arl…barley_cake.php

That might work a little better but then it's getting the barley ground into flour which presents its own problems. The Pass the Flamingo says to roast the flour itself:

Quote

Maza begins as álphita: barley flour that has been toasted over a fire,

Quote from Cassius

If "freedom from pain" amounts to the highest sensual pleasure, would you expect that "freedom from pain" or "freedom from disturbance" could just as easily have been listed among these (taste / sex / sound / dance) that Epicurus chose to list? If so, why? If not, why not?

By definition, "freedom from pain" = "filled with pleasure" so I don't think he *had* list specifically list it for it to be intrinsically there already. Note also that all three reference you give appear to be citing Epicurus's On the End-Goal (listed in Diogenes Laertius as On the Telos Περὶ τέλους. It just seems Cicero is quoting more of the text.

Quote from Kalosyni

The goal isn't a kind of "boring existence" of neutral feeling in the body which doesn't have pain and therefore qualifies as a state of pleasantness. But the goal is maximizing the sweetest sensations of pleasure by seeing that we haven't yet reached the "purest" feeling of pleasure if we are also still feeling pain in the body (over-indulgences) or the mind (anxiety/fear).

I like that summary very much.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Kalosyni

In other words the highest form of sensual pleasure (at it's height) will also be free from mental pain (we will be free from worry and fear).

Also, this has to do with a certain segment in time -- it isn't going to be at every moment of every day -- But rather it will unfold depending on a given situation. Ideally we will experience some parts of our day in this way -- we will have the experience of situations that feel very sweet and enjoyable.

Well put again! I would add - from my perspective - one of the goals is to increase those "segments of time" to be both longer and more frequent. And - again from my perspective - that's why cultivating "tranquility" and "peace of mind" is important: it allows us to have a "tranquil" baseline and to be less easily perturbed/disturbed. We will experience the bites of anger, annoyance, etc., but we won't be swept away by them.

Quote from Cassius

Is it listed in the same way such that it appears to be parallel or could have been included in the original listing?

I'm not quite sure of what you're asking here? Could you expand on that? One thought: there is not way to know what was in the original text by Epicurus - the "original listing" - which is lost except for these fragments.

Okay, I had the day off today so I decided to put my money literally where my mouth is and tried making some maza. I had a qualified success and a dismal failure, but Here's the play by play.

First, it was VERY hard to find barley flour. I finally tracked it down at an Indian grocery store in the area, so I bought two small bags (total $5.00 - okay, so not a LOT of money where my mouth is).

I tried two recipes:

First, make your álphita. Pour 1 and 1/4 cups of barley flour into a skillet over medium-high heat. Stir it thoroughly with a wooden spoon until it gives off a toasted aroma and turns a rich brown color. Then, remove from the heat and add 1/2 a cup of water, 2 tablespoons of olive oil and a pinch of salt. Continue stirring until you have an even, thick dough.

Eating ancient food with modern Romulans

We break ancient Greek maza bread with four curators from the Royal Ontario Museum.

www.thestar.com

Maza

2 cups, 12 tbsp (680 mL) barley flour

2/3 cup (160 mL) water

3 tbsp (45 mL) honey

3 tbsp (45 mL) olive oil

In a large mixing bowl, coming barley flour, water, honey and olive oil by hand into a dough. Cover and rest in fridge for 15 minutes.

Preheat oven to 325F/160C. Brush a baking tray with olive oil. Form dough into golf ball-sized spheres. On a floured surface, roll out dough to about 1 cm thick. Bake on tray until crispy, about 10 to 15 minutes, turning halfway. Place on wire rack to cool.

I tried making them both but made a 1/2 batch of the 2nd one (from The Star).

Mistake #1:

I left the flour in the skillet WAY too long!! It had a very pleasant nutty odor early on in the skillet roasting process, but I couldn't see the color on the stove well. And, I believe I burned it. This is the color of the finished balls at the end of the process.

They tasted terrible and the texture didn't set up. Plus there was the cognitive dissonance of them looking like chocolate. They were NOT chocolate! They also weren't dry like they look in the Pass the Flamingo pictures because I think I added too much water - going unconsciously for a batter almost. They were like slightly congealed pudding and tasted of burnt flour. NOT pleasant! I even tried baking them, but they never set up, and tasted possibly worse!

VERDICT on the Pass the Flamingo recipe: I may try it again. Pan roast flour for less time. Use much less water! Wait until flour is completely cooled (I put some of the water in when the skillet was still hot!). And make an actual dough and bake it anyway even if the recipe doesn't call for it. If I could get that nutty smell into the finished product, it might be worth experimenting again.

The Star recipe:

I made 1/2 batch of the batter with the honey and olive oil. I did NOT roll them out thin like the recipe said to. Slight mistake there. I put my hand in the photo for size. Here's a finished one after baking more than 2x as long as the recipe calls for... because they were thicker.

Photo taken at an angle. It's about the size of a cookie.

VERDICT on The Star recipe: The taste was quite pleasant with the honey. The texture wasn't great. BUT I think *when* (yes, when) I do it again, I'm going to keep the idea of a tortilla (Thanks, Joshua !) in mind instead of a "loaf" of bread or "pita bread". Without the gluten, that's not going to happen. I will definitely make them larger and flatter, going for a crispy texture.

So, If I were to give my experiments a grade:

0/10 - Pass the Flamingo (but most - if not all - of that is on me, need to follow the recipe + bake the final product)

5/10 - The Star (Has some potential and worth trying again with some tweaks - In fact, I ate another small one as I'm typing this. Yes, worth another try at some point... tortilla style )

Quote from Don

A simple meal of hearty, wholesome bread and spring water delivers the most extreme pleasure whenever food and drink have been brought to bear against hunger and thirst

You did a good job summarizing, Joshua

Good job everyone! A solid episode!

Joshua also mentioned my aversion to "profligate." Here's that section from my commentary:

131h. οὐ τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας λέγομεν,

• οὐ ...λέγομεν, "we don't say …"
• τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς "the pleasure of those who are ἀσώτων"
  • ἀσώτων (genitive of ἄσωτος (asōtos)
  • LSJ defines ἄσωτος as "having no hope of safety, in desperate case; abandoned; spendthrift, profligate." The Latin synonym given is perditus "squander, dissipate, waste, throw away, lost"

A quick diversion on ἄσωτος is in order. For those readers with a background in the Judeo-Christian tradition, the parable of the Prodigal Son uses this exact word to describe the lifestyle chosen by the wayward son: And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. (Luke 15:13, KJV) Here ἄσωτος is translated as "riotous living." The word also occurs in one other place, this time in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures (known to Christians as the "Old" Testament) to describe a sex worker, calling her ἀνεπτερωμένη "inciting" and ἄσωτος "carnal." (Proverbs 7:11) The original connotation of "having no hope" or "lost" gives an extra dimension to the word. The word literally is formed from ἀ- (“not”) +‎ σῴζω (sṓizō “save”): "not saved, lost, desperate." That sense, along with the "extravagant, prodigal, profligate," gives me a much richer sense of what Epicurus's point was.

It needs to also be pointed out that, unlike those Biblical references, there's no moral judgment being passed here. All pleasure is good. It's a question of the consequences. We'll discuss this after we examine how Epicurus describes the pleasure of those who are described as ἄσωτος.

Letter To Menoikeus: A New Translation With Commentary : Don Boozer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

A new translation of the Letter to Menoikeus (Menoeceus) by Epicurus with commentary.

archive.org

[133] Seeing that, whom do you consider is better or more powerful than one who holds pious beliefs concerning the gods; one who has absolutely no fears concerning death; one who has rationally determined the τέλος of one's natural state; and the one who grasps that, on the one hand, good things (namely pleasures) are both easily attained and easily secured, and, on the other hand, evil things (or pains) are either short in time or brief in suffering; someone who laughs at Fate which is introduced onto the stage of life by many as the mistress of all things? For that person, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control, they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that praise and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves. [134] Because of this, it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers, because necessity is not moved by prayer; and such a one accepts that Fortune is not a god, as the hoi polloi understand (for a god does nothing in a disorderly or haphazardly manner); And it is not the uncertain cause of everything, for one cannot think it can grant good or evil for a person’s blessed life; however, it does furnish for oneself the starting point of great goods and great evils, [135] believing that it is better to be unfortunate rationally than fortunate irrationally because it is better to have been deciding the noble way in accomplishing one's actions and to have been foiled than having decided the bad way and to succeed by means of chance.

Meditate day and night then on this and similar things by yourself as well as together with those like yourself. And never, neither awake nor in sleep, throw yourself into confusion, and you will live as a god among humans; because no person who lives among eternal pleasures is like a mortal being.

Quote from Cassius

Comes from my spear...? Meaning what?

It means he gains his bread and wine through his military exploits. He earns them by means of his military prowess.

The Swiss Army Spear

Archilochus Fr. 2 (West) Thanks to the spear I’ve got kneaded barley cake, And thanks to the spear Ismarian wine too. And so I recline and drink, thanks to the…

sententiaeantiquae.com

Thanks, Kalosyni !

For completeness, I'm going to post the maza recipe that author links to in that article too:

The significance is that that is the *exact* word Epicurus uses in the (in)famous "bread and water" statement in the letter to Menoikeus.

PS: I'm still trying to find barley flour to be able to try the maza recipe

Quote from DavidN

To me that sets the whole philosophy up to be a kind of psychological math problem. Which is why I like it so much, the idea that there's a formula for happiness.

Yes, I'd agree up to point but I don't think we need to go the whole Utilitarian way of adding hedons and dolors.

Just wondering if this is the/a source:

The Epicurean Doctrines on Wealth | Society of Friends of Epicurus

Quote

Philodemus makes frequent appeals to the authority of Metrodorus, one of the founders of the School, who promoted the idea that hedonic calPhilodemus makes frequent appeals to the authority of Metrodorus, one of the founders of the School, who promoted the idea that hedonic calculus must be employed in the management of one’s household and economic affairs, making the point time and again that we must run certain risks and go through certain inconveniences in order to avoid greater ruin and gain greater advantages.

He disagreed with the destitute life of the Cynics, and appears to have made this point while arguing against them and in favor of a doctrine of the natural measure of wealth. This corresponds to that which is needed to secure the natural and necessary pleasures, and to have the confident expectation that we will be able to secure them in the future.

Quote from Cassius

I strongly suspect that the bread and water reference was one of his regular in-your-face hypotheticals that he COULD live perfectly well on such fare if he needed to do so

I don't think it was merely a hypothetical. I think he probably did live perfectly well and pleasurably and intentionally from time to time on simple, everyday fare. Maybe even most of the time. To prove he could. Not hypothetically but empirically. He was surrounded by friends and students. He taught that your eating companions are as or more important than what you eat. He didn't need extravagance, but certainly wouldn't have gone out of his way to avoid it and wouldn't have struggled to put out a large extravagant banquet every day.

If I remember, there's a text that talks about Epicurus from time to time experimenting to see how little would still give him pleasure. He probably did try fasting do see what was absolutely essential to his finding pleasure in living. From Porphyry, at least, we read the Epicureans had "simple, available food" but we have to add fruit to the bread/maza and water at the very least. And cheese, we know there was cheese from time to time. So, the menu grows.

Porphyry, On Abstinence, I.48-: For most of the Epicureans, starting with their leader, appear to be satisfied with barley-bread and fruit, and they have filled treatises with arguments that nature needs little and that its requirements are adequately met by simple, available food. Riches in accordance with nature, they say, are limited and easy to get; riches in accordance with empty beliefs are unlimited and hard to get.

We also have Philodemus dinner invitation poem:

To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth invites you to come after the ninth hour to his simple cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply.

This implies to me we're going to get a hearty but simple, frugal meal on the 20th. Not meagre or stingy, but we know we're not getting udders and expensive wine. It's not a banquet. People will leave satiated not stuffed. Piso will celebrate "richly" because of his friendship with Philodemus not because of the food being served.

I was curious about the "simple" words:

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων, ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

καλιάδα = "simple" cottage; hut

λιτῆς = litēs = simple, inexpensive, frugal; of style, plain, simple, unadorned

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λι_τός

Philodemus was also clever in his word choice because λιτήν = litēn = entreaty, prayer, invitation echoes the λιτῆς = litēs = simple, inexpensive, frugal in the last line.