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Posts by Don

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  • Questions Re PD 26 - PD30 From the 10/5/22 Zoom

    • Don
    • October 7, 2022 at 8:13 AM

    Well, Diogenes includes it in Epicurus's list of works. I realize that's not definitive, but KD holds together much better than Vatican Sayings which is definitely a compilation. Could a scribal error have mixed up some sections of KD? Definitely! Does KD have it's overall organization in a work by Epicurus? That's my position. And Epicurus didn't have to call it KD though I don't see why he couldn't. But I'd want to check references to such a work in Seneca, Cicero, and Philodemus et al. before staking a flag too deep:

    Such, then, in number and character are the writings of Epicurus, the best of which are the following :

    Of Nature, thirty-seven books.

    Of Atoms and Void.

    Of Love.

    Epitome of Objections to the Physicists.

    Against the Megarians.

    Problems.

    Sovran Maxims. Κύριαι δόξαι

    Of Choice and Avoidance.

    Of the End.

    Of the Standard, a work entitled Canon.

    Chaeredemus.

    Of the Gods.

    Of Piety.

    [28] Hegesianax.

    Of Human Life, four books.

    Of Just Dealing.

    Neocles : dedicated to Themista.

    Symposium.

    Eurylochus : dedicated to Metrodorus.

    Of Vision.

    Of the Angle in the Atom.

    Of Touch.

    Of Fate.

    Theories of the Feelings--against Timocrates.

    Discovery of the Future.

    Introduction to Philosophy.

    Of Images.

    Of Presentation.

    Aristobulus.

    Of Music.

    Of Justice and the other Virtues.

    Of Benefits and Gratitude.

    Polymedes.

    Timocrates, three books.

    Metrodorus, five books.

    Antidorus, two books.

    Theories about Diseases (and Death)--to Mithras.41

    Callistolas.

    Of Kingship.

    Anaximenes.

    Correspondence.

    Edit: Oh, his Wikipedia article lists the work as Fundamental Propositions. I like that!

  • Questions Re PD 26 - PD30 From the 10/5/22 Zoom

    • Don
    • October 7, 2022 at 7:56 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    We know they were referred to as "Authorized"

    I wouldn't put too much stress on that one word. What they are called are the κυριαι δοξαι kyriai doxai.

    The doxai are beliefs, doctrines, opinions, etc. This is where English gets the -dox in words like orthodox "correct/right beliefs".

    Kyriai is related to the the Kyrie (vocative case of kyrios) in the Christian prayer "Kyrie, eleison" "Lord, have mercy"

    Kyrie - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

    The kyriai has connection to kyrios "lord, master, sir, the big kahuna, etc." So, these beliefs, doctrines, opinions are, in one sense, the *important* ones, the master doctrines, the important beliefs, the ones you're going to hold if you're an Epicurean.

    Here's the definition of kyrios

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, κύριος

    You'll see words like power, ordained, authority/authorized/authoritative, supreme, sovereign, principal, valid, proper, etc... All are equally correct and all bring their own English baggage with them. That's why some academics simply use KD (Kyriai Doxai) to refer to them.

    That's why you have SO many variations on the title of that work, which remember was NOT originally written as a numbered list!

  • Questions Re PD 26 - PD30 From the 10/5/22 Zoom

    • Don
    • October 7, 2022 at 7:06 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    Don or Nate, what about the varying translations of "natural" vs "physical"? What explains that variation and which do you think is best?

    I'm interested to hear Nate's take.

    My initial thought would be "the whim of the translator." φυσικός is transliterated "physikos" so it looks like (and is the source of) English physical, physics, so some translators play up that similarity. Others lean on the definition instead:

    I. natural, native, opp. to διδακτός, Xen., Arist.

    II. of or in the order of nature, natural, physical, opp. to ἠθικός, Arist.

    This is again why it is SO important to go back to the texts! Two English words in translations can imply there's something going on where in fact it's just the quirk of the individual translator pulling at different connotations of a word.

    Φυσικός comes from the word φύσις physis which is even more nuanced. See below.

    To address your "which is best?" The best is φυσικός ^^ but seriously they both have good points and bad points but any English word is ultimately going to bring its own semantic baggage and be looking at the texts through a glass darkly. The best we can do is be aware of this and NEVER rely on one translation like it's the King James Bible.

    Φύσις

    I. the nature, natural qualities, powers, constitution, condition, of a person or thing, Od., Hdt., attic

    2. like φυή, form, stature, ἢ νόον ἤ τοι φύσιν either in mind or outward form, Pind.; τὸν δὲ Λάϊον, φύσιν τίνʼ εἶχε, φράζε Soph.; τὴν ἐμὴν ἰδὼν φύσιν Ar.

    3. of the mind, one's nature, natural bent, powers, character, Soph., etc.

    4. often periphr., πέτρου φύσιν σύ γʼ ὀργάνειας, i. e. would'st provoke a stone, id=Soph.; ἡ φ. αὐτοῦ for αὐτός, Plat.

    II. nature, i. e. the order or law of nature, κατὰ φύσιν πεφυκέναι to be made so by nature, naturally, Hdt., etc.;—opp. to παρὰ φύσιν, Eur., Thuc.; so, προδότης ἐκ φύσεως a traitor by nature, Aeschin.:—so, in dat. φύσει, by nature, naturally, Ar., etc.:—f4usin 24exei, c. inf., it is natural that . . , Hdt., Plat.

    2. origin, birth, φύσει γεγονότες εὖ Hdt.; φ. νεώτερος Soph.; so, τὴν φύσιν Xen.

    III. nature, universe, Plat., Arist.

    IV. as a concrete term, creatures, animals (cf. φύστις), θνητὴ φ. man kind, Soph.; πόντου εἰναλία φ. the creatures of the sea, id=Soph.; θήλεια φ. woman- kind, Xen.; οἱ τοιαῦται φύσεις such creatures as these, Isocr.

    V. a nature, kind, sort, βιοτῆς φύσις Soph.: species, Xen.

    VI. sex, Soph., Thuc.

  • Questions Re PD 26 - PD30 From the 10/5/22 Zoom

    • Don
    • October 6, 2022 at 11:53 PM

    Okay, my mind is rambling, I'm tired, it's late, and still getting over some illness, but I made the decision to start playing with the Greek. Here's my work in progress... But then I'm really hanging up the phone and going to sleep. Really... Really! ^^

    PD30

    ἐν αἷς τῶν φυσικῶν ἐπιθμιῶν μὴ ἐπʼ ἀλγοῦν δὲ ἐπαναγουσῶν ἐὰν μὴ συντελεσθῶσιν, ὑπάρχει ἡ σπουδὴ σύντονος, παρὰ κενὴν δόξαν αὗται γίνονται, καὶ οὐ παρὰ τὴν ἑαυτῶν φύσιν οὐ διαχέονται ἀλλὰ παρὰ τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου κενοδοξίαν.

    τῶν φυσικῶν ἐπιθμιῶν the "physikon" desires

    φυσικός < φύσις

    I. natural, native, opp. to διδακτός ("things taught, learned"), Xen., Arist.

    II. of or in the order of nature, natural, physical, opp. to ἠθικός ("morals, ethics"), Arist.

    So, the φυσικῶν ἐπιθμιῶν seem to be, while usually translated just "natural desires", are those desires that arise naturally from within the needs of our bodies and from the needs within our minds, too, maybe, since Epicurus teaches that our minds are physical; from our physical nature, not those desires that we learn or are taught we *should* have. These desires arising within our minds can also come from the need for well-being and not just shelter, food, and other physical needs.

    Then when saying that καὶ οὐ παρὰ τὴν ἑαυτῶν φύσιν οὐ διαχέονται "and not through their own 'nature' (φύσιν) are they not dispelled themselves." (Double negatives were common ways of emphasizing a point not the way we think of them)

    Compare the last phrases:

    καὶ οὐ παρὰ τὴν ἑαυτῶν φύσιν οὐ διαχέονται ἀλλὰ παρὰ τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου κενοδοξίαν (διαχέονται).

    -- οὐ παρὰ τὴν ἑαυτῶν φύσιν "*not* by its own nature dispelled

    -- παρὰ τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου κενοδοξίαν "by the empty beliefs of humans dispelled

    παρὰ with the accusative case can mean "*by* which anything increases or decreases, and so of the cause according to which anything comes into existence or varies" which seems to be the intent here in this phrase.

  • Questions Re PD 26 - PD30 From the 10/5/22 Zoom

    • Don
    • October 6, 2022 at 10:38 PM

    I'll take you up on that challenge... tomorrow :)

    But the big difference I see off the bat is that 26 just mentions desires ἐπιθυμιῶν and 30 specifically physical/natural desires τῶν φυσικῶν ἐπιθμιῶν.

    More tomorrow....

    Edit: Thanks, Eikadistes !!! I need to scroll better before I just post! Those vocabulary lists are great! Your compilation continues to be a great resource!

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 6:11 PM

    Here's the section where it appears in Galen. I borrowed the book for an hour from Internet Archive, so it's available for anyone to download for that amount of time with a free account:

    On the elements according to Hippocrates : Galen : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    236 pages ; 25 cm
    archive.org
  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 5:53 PM

    Okay, found it:

    Die fragmente der Vorsokratiker, griechisch und deutsch, von Hermann Diels. v.2.

    I was able to use one of the Greek words to track down the quote in Diels book.

    P. 25 (digitized page 39) gives it a cited by Galen in his "Elements according to Hippocrates." There appears to be more context with that in the Greek.

    P. 60 (74) cites Sextus Empiricus's "Against the Mathematicians" (that's cited in the Wikipedia article)

    The two has slightly different orders of the characteristics considered conventional:

    Galen: χροιη (color), γλυκυ (sweet), πικρον (bitter), but in reality atoms and void.

    Sextus: γλυκυ (sweet), πικρον (bitter), θερμον (hot), ψυχρον (cold), χροιη (color), but in reality atoms and void.

    The Sextus citation sets up a nice dichotomy arrangement, but whose to say which is "correctly" quoting Democritus?

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 5:06 PM

    Also..

    https://faculty.umb.edu/adam_beresford/courses/phil_310_08/reading_taylor_democritus.pdf

    A solid examination of that quote starts this paper.

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 5:02 PM
    Quote from Joshua
    Quote

    1) Joshua do you have a cite for the precise way you quoted " By convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void."

    I like that version as making a very clear point, but maybe that is someone's interpretation?

    νόμωι (γάρ φησι) γλυκὺ καὶ νόμωι πικρόν, νόμωι θερμόν, νόμωι ψυχρόν, νόμωι χροιή, ἐτεῆι δὲ ἄτομα καὶ κενόν (Tetralogies of Thrasyllus, 9; Sext. Emp. adv. math. VII 135)

    Sweet exists by convention, bitter by convention, colour by convention; atoms and Void [alone] exist in reality. (trans. Freeman 1948)[1], p. 92.

    By convention sweet is sweet, bitter is bitter, hot is hot, cold is cold, color is color; but in truth there are only atoms and the void. (trans. Durant 1939)[2], Ch. XVI, §II, p. 353; citing C. Bakewell, Sourcebook in Ancient Philosophy, New York, 1909, "Fragment O" (Diels), p. 60

    -------------------------------------------

    I'm pulling this straight from Wikiquote

    Display More

    Democritus (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    Quote


    Texts

    The standard scholarly edition of the ancient evidence concerning the views of the Presocratic philosophers is Diels-Kranz’ work (cited as DK): H. Diels and W. Kranz, Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 6th edition, Berlin: Weidmann, 1951. A fuller presentation of the evidence for Democritus, with commentary in Russian: Solomon Luria, Demokrit, Leningrad, 1970. English translation and commentary (cited as Taylor 1999a): C.C.W. Taylor, The Atomists: Leucippus and Democritus. Fragments, A Text and Translation with Commentary, Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1999a. See also the report on Democritus in: Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers (Loeb Classical Library), R.D. Hicks (trans.), Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1925, book 9.34–49.

    "[Democritus] famously denies that perceptible qualities other than shape and size (and, perhaps, weight) really exist in the atoms themselves: one direct quotation surviving from Democritus claims that ‘by convention sweet and by convention bitter, by convention hot, by convention cold, by convention color; but in reality atoms and void’ (DK 68B9, trans. Taylor 1999a)."

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 4:12 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    If a perspective about atomism leaves out the fact that we are mortal and changing beings, and implies that our existence is somehow of lesser rank or less important than the atoms themselves, then that perspective is destructive to our well-being, and I would expect Epicurus to denounce it just as he denounces supernatural religion or false claims of life after death

    Okay, now I can see where you're coming from. While I can agree with Democritus (and Epicurus) in that atoms are the only "immortal" unchanging thing in the universe (for the sake of current argument), one can't stop at *that* realization. It's only half the picture. Got it. :thumbup:

  • Welcome Ben!

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 3:29 PM
    Quote from Ben

    Great to have tracked you down. I am really interested in how the communities functioned on a day to day level. Were they isolated, with no money used (barter economies) or drop-in places etc. I believe the children were communally cared for but little more. How did it work in practice in other words?

    I, too, am very interested in the day-to-day workings of the Gardens, both Epicurus's original one in Athens and subsequent ones that grew up later in cities across the ancient world. There is most likely a good chance that they all did not work the same as well.

    I see no evidence that they were isolated. Even though Epicurus situated the original Garden "outside the city walls of Athens" it was literally *right outside* the city walls and also on the same road that led to Plato's Academy. It's situation near/in the Kerameikos section of the city means it was near the potter's shops/homes as well as the tombs of the city. The Garden was on one of the busiest roads leading into the city right outside one of the busiest gates (the Dipylon Gate) leading into the city itself. Those who want to make the Garden to be some sort of walled-off exclusive commune isolated from the rest of society are barking up the wrong tree.

    I certainly don't see a "barter economy" taking place "within the Garden" unless within certain parameters given the ancient setting. It's also important to remember that the Garden was neither a "commune" in the colloquial nor in the literal sense. Epicurus specifically decided that resources should not be shared in common among his students.

    I've always seen the Garden as more of a drop-in/"commuter school" than a residential school. It's important to remember (and I have problems remembering this myself) that the Garden as as much a philosophical school as Plato's Academy, Aristotle's Lyceum, Chryssipus' Stoa, etc. I would conjecture that all the schools worked similarly administratively. The BIG difference between all those and the Garden was that the Garden was private property! All the others were founded on public grounds (near the gymnasiums for Plato and Aristotle, near the public agora for the "Stoics"). The fact that Epicurus also welcomed enslaved people into the Garden also tells me that it was not primarily residential. Those who were enslaved by others would only have been able to visit on their days of liberty, they'd need to go back to their master's house at night. Same way with women and especially hetairai. And there must have been enough enslaved people and women attending classes in the Garden for people to make a big deal out of it and be scandalized by it.

    Those are some thoughts off the top of my head, but Norman DeWitt wrote a paper entitled "Organization and Procedure in Epicurean Groups" (Classical Philology. Volume 31, Number 3. Jul., 1936) which may interest you. Itis definitely an intriguing topic!! Thanks for raising it!

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 1:19 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    Merely that these other aspects of nature are contingent on or emergent from matter. "Sweet" exists at the point of interaction between sense receptors on the tongue and one of a number of chemical compounds. When we say "it's sweet", I think what we really mean is "it tastes sweet [to me]".

    Well put, Joshua ! :thumbup: :thumbup:

    Quote from Joshua

    And maybe now is a good time to remind everyone about the great and glorious Mochus! This Mochus, the alleged father of ancient atomism, was considered by several early English scientists to have been one and the same with Moses himself; and by this circuitous route they make God out to be the father of Atomism, and they further connect the Greek word atom with the Hebrew name Adam, the "first beginnings". Does atomism lead to nihilism or not? Per usual, they are trying to have it both ways.

    ^^ LOL! I was completely unaware of "great and glorious Mochus"! By Zeus, those Christians will co-opt anything!!

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 11:14 AM

    For consideration:

    Democritus (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    This has a good section of the implications (and possible misinterpreting) of Democritus's "only atoms and void are real."

    Also a thought on the "slippery slope to nihilism" if by nihilism one means "the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence or arbitrariness of human principles and social institutions." (Wikipedia) Democritus was known as the "laughing philosopher" so he obviously had a reputation of being of good cheer. I think this stems directly from his "only atoms and void are real" perspective. In the words of The Beatles:

    Quote

    Nothing is real,

    And nothing to get hung about.

    "Strawberry Fields Forever"

    It seems to me that Democritus was saying, "We're all just ultimately atoms and void. All those problems you worry about, all that fame you're chasing, all that will ultimately dissolve into atoms and void! Just chill out and laugh!"

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 9:37 AM

    FYI...

    Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IX, Chapter 7. DEMOCRITUS(? 460-357 B.C.)

    An excerpt is below. Both the similarities and differences between Democritus and Epicurus are intriguing.

    The third phrase interested me though:

    "everything else is merely thought to exist."

    τὰ δ᾽ ἄλλα πάντα νενομίσθαι

    That last word νενομίσθαι is simply a verb form of the same word used in the Democritus quote above: is by custom, is commonly used, etc. So Diogenes corroborates the reference by a Sextus Empiricus.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, νομ-ίζω

    Excerpt:

    Such was the life of our philosopher.

    [44] His opinions are these. The first principles of the universe are atoms and empty space ; everything else is merely thought to exist. The worlds are unlimited ; they come into being and perish. Nothing can come into being from that which is not nor pass away into that which is not. Further, the atoms are unlimited in size and number, and they are borne along in the whole universe in a vortex, and therby generate all composite things--fire, water, air, earth ; for even these are conglomerations of given atoms. And it is because of their solidity that these atoms are impassive and unalterable. The sun and the moon have been composed of such smooth and spherical masses [i.e. atoms], and so also the soul, which is identical with reason. We see by virtue of the impact of images upon our eyes.

    [45] All things happen by virtue of necessity, the vortex being the cause of the creation of all things, and this he calls necessity. The end of action is tranquillity, which is not identical with pleasure, as some by a false interpretation have understood, but a state in which the soul continues calm and strong, undisturbed by any fear or superstition or any other emotion. This he calls well-being and many other names. The qualities of things exist merely by convention ; in nature there is nothing but atoms and void space. These, then, are his opinions.

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 9:16 AM

    Lucretius, On the Nature of Things, Book 3 (English Text)

    On the Nature of Things, Book 3:

    In considering these things, [370]

    you cannot accept at all the theory

    in the revered views of great Democritus

    that individual primary particles

    of body and of soul are put in place,

    alternating one after the other,

    and shape our limbs, holding them together.(12)

    (12) Democritus (c. 460 BC-c.370 BC), a Greek philosopher, is credited as the first to propose a detailed atomic theory. Democritus claimed that atoms of body and soul were equal in number and united in pairs throughout the human body

  • Democritus' "Nothing is truly real but atoms and void" statement

    • Don
    • October 4, 2022 at 7:35 AM
    Quote from Joshua

    In Greek:

    Quote

    νόμωι (γάρ φησι) γλυκὺ καὶ νόμωι πικρόν, νόμωι θερμόν, νόμωι ψυχρόν, νόμωι χροιή, ἐτεῆι δὲ ἄτομα καὶ κενόν (Tetralogies of Thrasyllus, 9; Sext. Emp. adv. math. VII 135)

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…entry=no%2Fmos2

    νόμωι "by custom, conventionally" is an interesting word to use, and I'm not sure I completely disagree with Democritus. We are all - everything - is literally temporary arrangements of atoms and void. That doesn't mean we're not "real". If one drills down far enough, you end up with atoms and void. But through our arrangements of atoms, we interact with the world, each other. Epicurus himself or Lucretius said atoms don't have color or smell or taste, but arrangements give rise to color and smell and taste.

    Edit: I suppose I should also include ἐτεῆι δὲ ἄτομα καὶ κενόν "for, in reality, atoms and void." ἐτεῆι does mean "in reality." In fact, LSJ uses Democritus's quote in its definition.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐτεός

  • New Article on the Inscription (And the "Bitter Gift" Misattribution)

    • Don
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:29 PM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    But it is very upsetting that it is on the wikipedia website

    Yeah, I'm going to need to go in and take that out of the Wikipedia article with a "citation needed" if someone's going to say "Epicurus called life a "bitter gift."" I've spent some time with the letter to Menoikeus and I can say for certain that that phrase is *not* in there.

  • New Article on the Inscription (And the "Bitter Gift" Misattribution)

    • Don
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:24 PM
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Maybe Joshua has some insights, as I see a reference to "bitter gift" from an Ancient Greek tragedy Hippolytus by Euripides ("bitter gift" of Poseidon):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=s7wvD…polytus&f=false

    Oh, this is fun! That line is also translated:

    Hippolytus

    Poseidon your father's gifts, what woe they brought!

    In Greek:

    Ιππόλυτος

    ὦ δῶρα πατρὸς σοῦ Ποσειδῶνος πικρά.

    That last word of the Greek πικρά "bitter" is the same word that shows up in Democritus's quote about "by convention" we've been discussing elsewhere.

    So, ὦ δῶρα πικρά. is literally "the bitter gift."

  • New Article on the Inscription (And the "Bitter Gift" Misattribution)

    • Don
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:13 PM

    I was a bit shocked to see "bitter gift" so widespread across the Internet!

    It's just so counterintuitive if one knows anything about Epicurus's philosophy. Life is a precious gift if anything... Although "gift" sets up the idea that there's a giver so that's a bit problematic.

    So, there's yet another topic that needs corrected... In addition to all the rest ;(

  • New Article on the Inscription (And the "Bitter Gift" Misattribution)

    • Don
    • October 3, 2022 at 4:07 PM

    By Zeus! "Bitter gift" shows up everywhere!!

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22bitter+gift%22+Epicureanism+&client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&ei=gEA7Y6-hNLKnptQP3sSCsAg&oq=%22bitter+gift%22+Epicureanism+&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKsCOgoIABBHENYEELADOgUIABCABDoGCAAQHhAWOggIABAeEA8QFjoHCCEQoAEQCjoHCCEQChCrAkoECEEYAFCgDljwhAFgoo4BaAJwAHgAgAHhAYgB7QySAQUwLjkuMZgBAKABAcgBBcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

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