Posts by Don

Quote from camotero

Trying to bridge a gap between EP and modern organized religion.

The chasm between organized religion/superstition and Epicurean philosophy is wide, deep, and filled with alligators. In some ways, it's best to turn away from the gap and beat a path in the opposite direction. As Lucretius says, religion is prone to many evils. Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum!!

I'm slowly trying to emulate Epicurus in his observance of the rites and holidays. Taking joy in family gatherings. Appreciating the art and celebrating with an internal realignment of what it all means.

But the opinion of the crowds is false piety and I have no desire to go down that road again (at least at the time of this writing. Humans can be fickle creatures). Being concerned by their rules, their traditions, their playing field is not required. As George Carlin says in that video, there's 10 because 10 sounds official. That, in itself, to me is a reason to come up with a different number.

I debated whether to weigh in here, but, in the end, I'll err on the side of friendly, respectful, frank speech. I hope this is conveyed and received with that framing. And, I'm fully aware, you'll do what you feel you need to do in your situation.

I would agree that the Ten Commandments is ubiquitous in Western culture. Everyone will inevitably hear about it, probably sooner than later. Plus, kids will have questions. Boy howdy, do they have questions sometimes!

That said, the idea of feeling that one is constrained to come up with 10 "good ideas" to compete with this outdated list of 10 divine commands is fraught with potential frustration. That said, the Wikipedia article on alternatives does show it's a common exercise:

Alternatives to the Ten Commandments - Wikipedia

although even those lists range from 3 to 11 but simply go through the exercise to demonstrate the outdated-nesd of the traditional list (actually at least 2 slightly different lists in the Bible... Evidently "God" couldn't make up "His" mind!).

My suggestion, if/when the question arises, is to use it as an opportunity to talk about...

"Some/all religions try to give instructions to people on how to live together. In Christianity and Judaism, their book gives them 10 instructions they are supposed to follow. Buddhists have 4 important things to say then give 8 ways to get there then have 5 important things to say on how to act (Buddhists really like lists!!). Lists are a way to make it easy to remember things. Some things on all these lists are basically good ideas for everyone. Others keep people in line and punish them for goofy things that don't exist. The 10 Commandments include things that make "God" jealous and mad. That's just silly! How could the "Master of the Universe" care about little things like that!? All of the lists mostly say something like we shouldn't hurt people and people shouldn't hurt us. That's a good idea, isn't it? But what would be in your list? Let's talk about what kind of list of good ideas you'd come up with? Would you like to think about that together?"

Raising kids is hard!! No argument there! But trying to pound an Epicurean peg into a Judeo-Christian hole seems fraught with frustration and pitfalls. Plus, I think it doesn't do religion or Epicureanism any favors. Get rid of the oppressive religion. Don't play on its field. Set sail in your own little boat, free of indoctrination!

Quote from Cassius

will substitute Don's. Link - twhanks

I would suggest picking the copy you like best. You can note that it can be borrowed from the archive with a FREE account. For ex.

Epicurus and his philosophy : DeWitt, Norman Wentworth, 1876- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Bibliography, p.361-362

archive.org

It looks like there are several copies available through Internet Archive

Internet Archive Search: Epicurus and his philosophy

Quote from Cassius

With apologies to Don, I have to also note that it opens up the possibility that someone creative with Latin and in tune with the Eoicurean viewpoint might actually be able to reconstruct the thrust of what might have been included at the end of Book Six.

Maybe at some point Austin herself could take a stab at it, or even someone like David Sedley or Martin Ferguson Smith

For those interested, here is Thucydides's account of the plague. Open the Year 2 section on the linked page:

History of the Peloponnesian War/Book 2 - Wikisource, the free online library

LOL! If y'all don't stop calling attention to interesting bits, I'm never going to finish this in the right order

And the social media chapter also seems spot on!

I jumped ahead and read her first politics chapter. I think it's one of the best interpretations of "live unknown" that I've read anywhere. Short on time right now, but wanted to share that.

I just downloaded the e-book. I'll try and read it and post thoughts. If Cassius is encouraged, that bodes well.

Yes! I encourage everyone to read the article. I've hit its Up vote button!

I'm also going to check out her book, just published Nov 1.

Good find, Cassius !

I had heard the "make a eunuch a man" quote, but I wanted to look up the origin. Diogenes Laertius quotes this in Book 4.6.43 on Arcesilaus.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IV, Chapter 6. ARCESILAUS (c. 318-242 B.C.)

Another pleasant story told of him is this. Some one had inquired why it was that pupils from all the other schools went over to Epicurus, but converts were never made from the Epicureans: "Because men may become eunuchs, but a eunuch never becomes a man," was his answer.

"ἐκ μὲν γὰρ ἀνδρῶν γάλλοι γίνονται, ἐκ δὲ γάλλων ἄνδρες οὐ γίνονται."

The word translated "eunuch" is γάλλος

A. priest of Cybele, Schwyzer 633.11 (Eresus, ii/i B. C.), Arr. Epict.2.20.17, AP6.234 (Eryc.), 220 (Diosc.):—fem. form Γαλλαί Lyr.Adesp.121.

II. eunuch, J.AJ4.8.40, PGnom.244, D.L.4.43.

The word translated "man" is ἄνδρες which is man as in male person. Arcesilaus doesn't use άνθρωπος "human being" but "manly man."

A γάλλος as LSJ shows was a eunuch but I find the fact that this refers specifically to a priest of Cybele very interesting. Yes, Arcesilaus was obviously referring to the castration part. But, this part in the Wikipedia article is interesting too (emphasis added):

"Most modern scholarship agrees that Cybele's consort, Attis, and her eunuch Phrygian priests (Galli) would have arrived with the goddess, along with at least some of the wild, ecstatic features of her Greek and Phrygian cults."

The Epicureans were slandered with saying they took part in wild, hedonistic parties, which would have dovetailed nicely with this Γάλλος epithet.

Quote

As eunuchs, incapable of reproduction, the Galli were forbidden Roman citizenship and rights of inheritance; like their eastern counterparts, they were technically mendicants whose living depended on the pious generosity of others. For a few days of the year, during the Megalesia, Cybele's laws allowed them to leave their quarters, located within the goddess' temple complex, and roam the streets to beg for money. They were outsiders, marked out as Galli by their regalia, and their notoriously effeminate dress and demeanour, but as priests of a state cult, they were sacred and inviolate. From the start, they were objects of Roman fascination, scorn and religious awe.

EDIT: I stand corrected on the "ecstatic rites" in Wikipedia. I misinterpreted. See

The GALA and the Gallos

The Luwian ritual texts known as the Songs of Istanuwa and the Songs of the Men of Lallupiya are shown to be at once the earliest textual references to the…

www.academia.edu

"They are noted for their wailing and lamentation of Attis, Cybele’s mythological companion who died after castrating himself. The processions of the galloi, accompanied by the clanging of cymbals, were characterized by ecstatic selfmutilation and bloodletting."

However, that paper goes on to say that...

"The stereotypical gallus of Roman literature wore feminine dress and heavy makeup, had long yellow-tinted hair, and was willing to perform sex acts considered degrading by the Romans."

Just had to comment on Joshua 's mention of drama at 39:10. He's thinking of Aristophanes' The Clouds with Socrates teaching in the "Thinkatorium."

The Clouds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Plato appears to have considered The Clouds a contributing factor in Socrates' trial and execution in 399 BC.

"There is a famous story, as reported for example by Aelian, according to which Socrates cheerfully rose from his seat during the performance of The Clouds and stood in silent answer to the whispers among foreigners in the festival audience: "Who is Socrates?""

Quote from Pacatus

Unaffrighted by carefree gods,

untroubled by unfeeling death –

I really like that you didn't go the imperative command route on these! No "do not..." just describing the situation.

Quote from Pacatus

with perhaps a mantra,

How about this:

No fear

No death

Feel good

Bear pain

That's **very** much an "of the top of my head."

As always, there's much more going on behind why I chose these lines here and in the above poem, butI 'll jump down off my TetrapharmaBox for awhile now.

Okay, so here is draft 2, composed in the light of day. I tried to pay more attention to the syllable structure and alliteration and a little rhyme:

Blissful gods I do not fear,

free from care and woe.

Destined death bears not a threat,

think not rod nor gift.

Pleasant feeling is the good,

easy to procure.

Terror comes from pain and grief,

but I can endure.

EDIT: Okay, final revision (LOL) with more attention to syllable structure and formal alliteration, etc. I can almost guarantee this won't be the last one... but I'll stop hijacking the thread!

Blissful gods I do not fear,

free from care and woe.

Destined death, devoid of risk,

removes rod and reward.

Pleasant feeling is the good,

gained by nature's ease.

Dreadful pain disturbs my peace,

but I can endure.

Note: I have purposefully "almost" alliterated "peace" and "but" (same articulation, but one voiced one unvoiced). I also just realized ease and peace are almost rhymes with the same voiced/unvoiced pair. That was accidental but ... hmm...

Okay, a very quick attempt at an imayo (Japanese 4-line poem with 12 syllables in each line in a 7 first / 5 last split with a caesura separating them. Lines can also be split at the caesura. And, no, I didn't even know this was a poem style until I looked at that list in the last post!)

So, this is an attempt at a possible prayer-like, poetic rendition of the Tetrapharmakos:

Blissful gods I do not fear | free from care and woe.

My pending death brings nothing | neither rod nor gift.

The good is pleasant feeling | easy to procure.

The terrible is painful | but we can endure.

With the lines split:

Blissful gods I do not fear

free from care and woe.

My pending death brings nothing

neither rod nor gift.

The good is pleasant feeling

easy to procure.

The terrible is painful

but I can endure.

Thought y'all might be interested:

List of 168 Poetic Forms for Poets

Check out this list of 168 poetic forms for poets that includes everything from abstract poetry and ae freislighe to villanelle and zappai—and so many more in…

www.writersdigest.com

Quote from Pacatus

Quote from Don

That's always been one of my reasons for advocating for the Tetrapharmakos

That is both simple and familiar to an Epicurean. The usual English translations, though, seem more like instructions or rubrics, rather than self-expressive prayer or meditative affirmations. And not everyone will find the Greek either resonant or easy to remember/recite.

LOL! I'll take that as a challenge to come up with one that's not in the imperative and is more prayer-like

Quote from Pacatus

For me, the best prayers are brief: easy to remember.

That's always been one of my reasons for advocating for the Tetrapharmakos

I thought I had posted about prayer previously and sure enough - 2 years ago - I was going through Obbink's translation and commentary on On Piety:

Post

RE: Philodemus On Piety

προσευχεσθαι γαρ εν τωι Περί [Βιων] οικείον είναι [ημεί]ν φησίν.

I promised something on prayer yesterday, so to fulfill my self-imposed obligation , here's what Epicurus said about prayer according to column 26 of On Piety. The original is above and is mostly intact in the papyrus.

For he says in the On Ways of Life, προσευχεσθαι is οικείον for us.

προσευχεσθαι [proseukhesthai] means "prayer", specifically to offer prayers or vows; offer prayers or worship. The word can be broken down…

Don

December 16, 2020 at 11:05 PM

Not that it's any great insight! Just thought y'all could find it interesting.