Posts by Don

Quote from Todd

Pleasure could be defined as what anyone chooses.

What anyone chooses that does not cause mental or physical pain (in the widest sense)?

I admit that I like the "babies and animal" argument as well as "it's as obvious as snow is cold, fire is hot."

However, I always come back to why anyone does anything. For Stoics, being virtuous - or being perceived as acting for virtue - provides them with a sense of satisfaction. To me, satisfaction = pleasure. For Christians, believing in an afterlife appears to bring them joy. Joy = pleasure. For Buddhists, ridding oneself of desires brings contentment. Contentment = pleasure. And so on down the line. To me, there's no escaping it.

Quote from Todd

I feel like I want a theory. A theory grounded in reality, of course, but still a theory. This is might be a corrosive desire.

This is an interesting way to phrase that (and I'm meaning that as a positive thing not a criticism).

Could you share what you think of when you say "theory"? Would you have an example from another philosophy or religion (not that you necessarily agree with; just an example)? Or what you'd want the theory to be in Epicurean philosophy.

It seems that number comes from here:

https://www.thoughtco.com/number-of-atoms-in-the-universe-60379

and there's this:

How Many Atoms Are There in the Universe?

It’s no secret that the universe is an extremely vast place. That which we can observe (aka. “the known Universe”) is estimated to span roughly  93 billion…

www.universetoday.com

It's important to look at what that second one says: "And yet, those numbers don’t accurately reflect how much matter the universe may truly house. As stated already, this estimate accounts only for the observable universe which reaches 46 billion light years in any direction, and is based on where the expansion of space has taken the most distant objects observed."

Even so, I don't get my science from a 2,000+ year old text. However, Epicurus was headed in the right direction. For all intents and purposes from a human perspective, the difference between those estimates and "infinity" are academic. The word Epicurus used was άπειρος "without limit" often translated as "infinite."

My perspective on Epicurus's philosophy doesn't rise or fall on determining an unimaginable number of atoms. There are also other cosmos (cosmoi) to consider in the infinite All. When considering that, the number is atoms is unlimited.

PS. There's also the question of how to translate Epicurus's άτομος (atomos) into modern physics. Can we use it to refer to an "atom" as we define it? Is it a molecule? Is it a quark? Meson? Wave function? Again, Epicurus did not have access to our methods and tools, but he "got" that the cosmos is material and composed of matter and had no supernatural origin. That's the important point rather than trying to find a "Gotcha!"

Thanks, @Faunus , for the question!

Welcome back, Todd!

"THE ELDER PLINY ON PHILOSOPHERS." MIRIAM GRIFFIN. Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies. Supplement. No. 100, VITA VIGILIA EST: ESSAYS IN HONOUR OF BARBARA LEVICK (2007), pp. 85-101 (17 pages)

Excerpt p.91:

Pliny 's philosophical stance

There is not need here to describe and analyze the philosophical or quasi-philosophical views of the Elder Pliny, since that difficult task has been done very well by Mary Beagon and others.28 There is a consensus that Pliny is not an adherent of any one philosophical doctrine, but that his mental landscape features strong Stoic elements, notably on cosmology, non-anthropomorphic conception of the divine (with HN 2.14, cf. Sen. Nat. 2.45), the existence of divine Providence, and man's centrality in the universe. There is also a clear debt to Epicureanism, notably in the rejection of belief in the after life (HN 7.5), belief in astrology and various forms of divination (2.23-24, 2.28, 11.273), and, at one point, belief in direct providential concern for individuals (2.20): superstitions from which the rational study of nature can free us (2.54).

(HN = Natural History)

I checked, and Pliny was staying for some time in Misenum (modern Miseno) with his sister and nephew (Pliny the Younger) and was there when Vesuvius erupted. That's literally only a 7-8 hour *walk* from Herculaneum (modern Ercolano), arguably one *the* hotspots of Epicurean activity in ancient Rome. So, yeah, Pliny easily saw, talked to, and had first-hand knowledge of Epicureans while writing his Natural History.

So yeah, that first draft paper I posted is going to have a substantial revision that includes Pliny's text in addition to other points discovered. All in all, I keep seeing a stronger case for Gamelion 20 as THE day of Epicurus's birthday.

Quote from Cassius

Also Don what do you take Pliny's point to be in this discussion? The "thus?"

We don't live on after we die. The portraits (to which he was referring in the previous section) simply display the wealth of the dead people, not their character.

And this is important for the 20th discussion because Pliny was not Epicurean but he reported what he saw and what he was told. The fact that his villa was close enough to Pompeii and Herculaneum that he could get to the doomed city while the eruption was happening tells me he undoubtedly had contact with Epicureans. He didn't celebrate the Eikas but he could have easily seen people celebrating it. Same goes for Pliny the Younger of someone wants to say that her added this to book 35. Either way, we're covered!

From my perspective, this is big. I just found this in Pliny 's Natural History, 35.2:

Quote

Thus it is that we possess the portraits of no living individuals, and leave behind us the pictures of our wealth, not of our persons.

And yet the very same persons adorn the palæstra and the anointing-room4 with portraits of athletes, and both hang up in their chamber and carry about them a likeness of Epicurus.5 On the twentieth day of each moon they celebrate his birthday6 by a sacrifice, and keep his festival. known as the "Icas,"7 every month: and these too, people who wish to live without being known!8 So it is, most assuredly, our indolence has lost sight of the arts, and since our minds are destitute of any characteristic features, those of our bodies are neglected also.

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, BOOK XXXV. AN ACCOUNT OF PAINTINGS AND COLOURS., CHAP. 2. (2.)—THE HONOUR ATTACHED TO PORTRAITS.

The footnote - from John Bostock in 1855! - says "6 In reality, his birth-day was not on the twentieth day of any month; but, for some reason which is not known, he fixed upon this day.—B. He was born on the seventh day of the month Gamelion."

LOL!! Although later parts were published posthumously by Pliny the Younger shortly after Pliny's death during the destruction of Pompeii, Pliny's Natural History is from the 1st century CE **when there were still practicing Epicureans right in Herculaneum near where Pliny actually had a villa!!!*** Pliny no doubt knew Epicureans first-hand!! For me, I'm going to take the word of Pliny over a 19th century scholar!

In Latin:

Quote

iidem palaestras athletarum imaginibus et ceromata sua exornant, epicuri voltus per cubicula gestant ac circumferunt secum. natali eius sacrificant, feriasque omni mense vicesima luna custodiunt, quas icadas vocant, ii maxime, qui se ne viventes quidem nosci volunt. ita est profecto: artes desidia perdidit, et quoniam animorum imagines non sunt, negleguntur etiam corporum.

Quote from Cassius

I wonder if Epicurean possibly, or Stoic.....

My guess would be Aristotelian because he obviously liked to make long lists of things

I found last night that Hesychius of Alexandria in his Lexicon of unusual and obscure Greek words written in the 5th or 6th c. CE includes the following entry:

δεκάτη προτέρα· ἡ πρὸ εἰκάδος, ὡς ὑστέρα· ἡ μετ' εἰκάδα

δεκάτη προτέρα· ἡ πρὸ εἰκάδος ("for/instead of εἰκάδος/20th"), like ὑστέρα· ἡ μετ' εἰκάδα ("after εἰκάδα/20th, i.e., 21st")

PS: Note - I'm getting that use of πρὸ from LSJ, definition III.1.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πρό

III. in other relations:

1. of Preference, before, rather than, κέρδος αἰνῆσαι π. δίκας to praise sleight before right, Pi.P.4.140, cf. Pl.R.361e; πᾶν δὴ βουλόμενοι σφίσι εἶναι π. τῆς παρεούσης λύπης anything before, rather than, their actual trouble, Hdt.7.152 (so, in order to avoid, “π. τοῦ δεινοτάτου” D.54.19); “πᾶν π. τοῦ δουλεῦσαι ἐπεξελθεῖν” Th.5.100, cf.4.59; ἑλέσθαι, αἱρεῖσθαι, or κρῖναί τι π. τινός to choose one before another, Id.5.36, Pl.R.366b, Phlb.57e; π. πολλοῦ ποιήσασθαι to esteem above much, i.e. very highly, Isoc.5.138; “π. πολλῶν χρημάτων τιμήσασθαί τι” Th.1.33, cf.6.10; π. ἄλλων more than others, Pl.Mx.249e (v.l.), cf. A. Th.1002; δυσδαίμων . . π. πασᾶν γυναικῶν ib.927 (codd., lyr.); “π. πάντων θεῶν τῇ Ἑστίᾳ πρώτῃ προθύειν” Pl.Cra. 401d: after a Comp. it is redundant, “ἡ τυραννὶς π. ἐλευθερίης ἀσπαστότερον” Hdt.1.62, cf.6.12, Pl.Ap.28d, Cri.54b, Phd.99a; for ἤ after “ἄλλος, οὐδεὶς ἄλλος π. σεῦ” Hdt.3.85, cf.7.3.

Hesychius of Alexandria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's an ancient author providing specific definitions for both δεκάτη προτέρα and δεκάτη ὑστέρα as alternative names for the 20th and 21st days of the month.

Hesychii Alexandrini lexicon : Hesychius, of Alexandria : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book digitized by Google from the library of Harvard University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.

archive.org

Quote from Cassius

I just clicked through to

https://athenianyear.wordpress.com

That's quite a website!

I'll be curious to see where he got his information on the names of the days.

It appears to meet that his calculations are the same as the calendar at

HMEPA: Hellenic Month Established Per Athens temporary

Oh, and not a criticism btw! Just speaking from experience

I would be careful about too rigidly sticking to a set of questions: Q, A, Q, A, repeat. The best "interviews" are a conversation, albeit a "structured" conversation, but I'd suggest keeping the "conversation" part firmly in mind.

More on akratos...

ACRATUS (Akratos) - Greek God or Spirit of Unmixed Wine

Quote

Akratos was no doubt regarded as a deity of festive excess.

Was ancient wine more alcoholic than modern wine?

This article is taken from a contribution to the website 'Bad Ancient'. It discusses the alcoholic content of ancient wines using ancient literature,…

www.academia.edu

Interesting article on ancient wine, ABV %ages, watering down, etc.

I'm continuing to see both the undiluted wine and the warm bath as ways to ease his pain not to hasten his death.

Quote from Kalosyni

favorite ice cream flavor

If y'all ever find yourselves in NE Ohio, you owe it to yourself to go to Mitchell's Ice Cream for the Vegan Chocolate! Best @#$& chocolate ice cream - vegan or otherwise - anywhere!

Mitchell's Homemade

www.mitchellshomemade.com

For holiday reading or viewing, Muppet Christmas Carol is/was a family tradition when kids were under the roof

Quote from Cassius

it's not a good likeness,

At least it hews closer to the traditional bust than others I've seen. It strikes me as "Epicurus as a Renaissance scholar."

Horace, Satire 2

Q. Horatius Flaccus (Horace), Satyrarum libri, book 1, Improbus, dum vitia quaedam declinant, in contraria incidere.

Q. Horatius Flaccus (Horace), The Works of Horace, book 1, Bad men, when they avoid certain vices, fall into their opposite extremes.

Quote

The tribes of female flute-players,1 quacks, vagrants, mimics, blackguards;2 all this set is sorrowful and dejected on account of the death of the singer Tigellius; for he was liberal [toward them]. On the other hand, this man, dreading to be called a spendthrift, will not give a poor friend [5] wherewithal to keep off cold and pinching hunger. If you ask him why he wickedly consumes the noble estate of his grandfather and father in tasteless gluttony, buying with borrowed money all sorts of dainties; he answers, [10] because he is unwilling to be reckoned sordid, or of a mean spirit: he is praised by some, condemned by others.

(audatur ab his, culpatur ab illis.)

So that Latin on the etching refers to Tigellius in Horace's writing and not to Epicurus, but the artist used it anyway. This demonstrates how easily lines can be taken out of context and how important it is to track down the source of quotations.

Quote from Joshua

Quote

48. Strangury and dysuria are cured by drinking pure wine, and venesection; open the vein on the inside.

--Hippocrates; Aphorisms, Section VII; transl. Francis Adams

http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/aphorisms.7.vii.html

GREAT FIND, Joshua !!

Here's the Greek:

στραγγουρίην καὶ δυσουρίην θώρηξις καὶ φλεβοτομίη λύει: τάμνειν δὲ τὰς ἔσω.

Interestingly, Diogenes has, in his transcription of Epicurus's letter, στραγγουρία τε παρηκολουθήκει καὶ δυσεντερικὰ

"Strangury followed closely also by dysentery"

But it would make more sense if it was supposed to be dysuria "painful urination" δυσουριην since Hippocrates treats those two conditions in the same aphorism.

Those two words look similar enough and I could see someone not paying attention and confusing the two when copying a manuscript: ΔΥΣΟΥΡΙΗΝ vs ΔΥΣΕΝΤΕΡΙΚΑ