Posts by Don

Eikadistes , I had never seen that but I am definitely intrigued.

So, the form of that is:

ΣTOIXEIΩΣEIΣ ΔΩΔEKA

(or in upper & lower case, for comparison)

Στοιχειώδεις δώδεκα.

I was curious to see how the other sets of books were listed in Diogenes ' Book 10:

Περὶ φύσεως ἑπτὰ καὶ τριάκοντα.

On Nature (in) 37 (books)

Ἐπιστολικὰ περὶ Ἐμπεδοκλέους εἴκοσι καὶ δύο.

Letters concerning Empedocles (in) 22 (books)

Πρὸς τοὺς σοφιστὰς ἐννέα.

Against the Sophists (in) nine (books)

Πρὸς τοὺς ἰατροὺς τρία.

Against the Physicians (in) three (books)

There were others but those only used numerals. But these three here all use the number directly after the title and are translated, with no fanfare, as Title (in) X# (books).

I do notice that the form in Diogenes 10.44 is ταῖς Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί with the number preceding the "elements/principles." However, in looking at them placement of other numbers in relation to the noun they're modifying, some are before, some after. The placement of Δώδεκα between the definite article and στοιχειώσεσί leads me to interpret ταῖς Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί as "in The 12 Principles/ Elements." I'm not saying I couldn't be persuaded otherwise, but that's my current understanding.

Welcome, Plantpierogi , to our virtual Garden

PS: After reading Cassius 's post below, I'll second his "Glad that you found the lurking helpful, and welcome to the club "

...we say pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment, the beginning and end (ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος) of the blessed life.

~ Epicurus, Letter to Menoikeus

May your old year end and your new one begin with pleasures, both great and small!

Happy New Year!

All very cool! Plus people shouldn't forget your 20er moon phase icons (must say I'm obviously partial to that one )

Quote from Don

But that's a conversation for another thread

Like this one ...

Thread

Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion)

Had this been shared before?

https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/47860495

Don

June 29, 2022 at 11:26 PM

Quote from Nikolsky

If Epicurus did not divide pleasures into kinetic and static,

I still think Epicurus (and Metrodorus and Philodemus) did use those categories; however, I think much ado has been made of them by later commentators.

But that's a conversation for another thread

Quote from Don

The sage will found a school, but not in a way that attracts a crowd around themselves or plays to the mob.

I don't know if this is a repeat of info, but I just discovered today that this could be a response (or a jab) at Theophrastus, head of Aristotle's school, who regularly spoke to thousands of pupils:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius 5.2.37

About 2000 pupils used to attend his lectures. In a letter to Phanias the Peripatetic, among other topics, he speaks of a tribunal as follows2: "To get a public or even a select circle such as one desires is not easy. If an author reads his work, he must re-write it. Always to shirk revision and ignore criticism is a course which the present generation of pupils will no longer tolerate." And in this letter he has called some one "pedant."

Reading through the Routledge chapter and it strikes me that when they mention enargeias, this appears to be a related word to the one that Epicurus used to describe our perception of the gods in the letter to Menoikeus:

Gods exist, and the knowledge of them is manifest to the mind's eye (ἐναργὴς enargēs).

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , ἐναπο-στέγω , ἐναργ-ής

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , ἐναπο-στέγω , ἐνάργ-εια

I haven't had a chance to read the paper/chapter yet (on the to-do list!), but it's one interpretation of the "true" is that sense impressions originate with "real" truly existing objects and so we can rely on our senses that there IS indeed a real, external world that exists independently of us? Were there schools in ancient Greece that taught we couldn't be sure if this?

Literally, blue skying it here.

My take, from an ancient Epicurean perspective, would be that the senses receive the films of the images onto the sense organs as a die casts a piece of metal. The error arises when the mind interprets (almost immediately or simultaneously) the impression made by the die.

Quote from Cassius

Here is DeWitt's article focusing on the subject. I am having trouble getting the Greek word in the summary typed in - if any moderator has the ability to fix that in the description (where I have placed the ________) please do.

File

Norman DeWitt - "Epicurus - All Sensations Are True"

DeWitt's interpretation of the "all sensations are true" controversy.

Cassius

December 29, 2022 at 12:23 PM

Here it is in plain text for you to copy:

αληθής

Also

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀληθ-ής

All we have from the Letter to the philosophers of Mytilene that Dewitt references in that "satire" section:

Epicurus: Fragments - translation

[ U113 ]

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Philosophers, X.8: Furthermore, Epicurus himself in his letters says of Nausiphanes: "This so maddened him that he abused me and called me a didaskalon." {= "pedagogue," a trite, pedantic teacher} Epicurus used to call Nausiphanes a pleumonon. {= "jellyfish," imputing obtuseness and insensibility}

U114 ]

Sextus Empiricus, Against the Professors, I.3: Epicurus, then, though he had been one of this man’s disciples, did his best to deny the fact in order that he might be thought to be a self-taught and original philosopher, and tried hard to blot out the reputation of Nausiphanes, and became a violent opponent of the Arts and Sciences wherein Nausiphanes prided himself. Thus, in his Letter to the Philosophers of Mytilene, Epicurus says, "I quite suppose that ‘the bellowers’ will fancy that I am even a disciple of ‘the jellyfish’ having sat under him in the company of some crapulous striplings;" whereby he calls Nausiphanes a "jellyfish" as being without sense. And again, after proceeding further and abusing the man at length, he hints at his proficiency in Arts and Sciences when he says – "In fact he was a sorry fellow and exercised himself on matters which cannot possibly lead to wisdom," alluding thereby to Arts and Sciences.

My question with DeWitt is: Where is he getting this? How can he make those broad statements when we don't even have the texts?

DeWitt did a lot of "historical fiction" writing on the flimsiest (or non-existent!) of evidence... In my opinion.

About halfway through and had a thought about being open to other ideas, etc. At least the Epicureans didn't walk themselves off from other philosophers' ideas. The number of books they wrote against other schools show that they definitely engaged with other ideas. To counter them and argue against them, of course; but they were engaged in the marketplace of ideas.

Quote from Cassius

so hard to know what to say.

Philosophers Rorschach Test

I was completely unaware of this mosaic. Thanks, Joshua , for posting it.

That guy in the gold-colored cloak and a "crown?" on the left is quite striking. Are there any philosophers that fit that kind of description?

That guy seated on the left reminds me of Metrodorus from Autun.

https://www.pompeiiinpictures.com/pompeiiinpictures/VF/Villa_020.htm

I found this interesting in one of the papers referenced in the Wikipedia article:

Quote

Athens is visible in the upper right background, as well as what might be the Dipylon Gate with its bronze amphorae on top, which was not far from the academy.

The Garden was supposed to be situated near the Dipylon Gate just outside the walls of the city. Plus, those boots on the statue and the shoes on the mosaic person sitting to the right look s lot alike.

Quote from Nate

This is excellent, Don! Thank you for taking the time to organize this information.

Thank you, Eikadistes , for your contribution, enthusiasm, and encouragement on this topic!