Posts by Don

Quote from Pacatus

we try to apply Epicurean teachings to better our lives

And...Right there. I'd ask what "Epicurean teachings" are you trying to apply to better your life. If you're trying to apply Epicurus's teachings to better your life, that makes you an Epicurean as opposed to a Christian or Stoic or something else.

I'll be the first to say unequivocally that there is no "apostolic" Epicurean lineage, there is no Epicurean scholarch determining Orthodox practices. But, if someone wants to think of themselves as an Epicurean and part of a larger Garden community, there has to be some shared principles and practices. I also grant it's a wide net but the net cannot be so huge that it means nothing to say "I'm an Epicurean." Otherwise, it means nothing and Epicurus at least taught that words have to have a commonly understood meaning otherwise communication is impossible.

There is also a difference between implementing a smorgasbord or cafeteria of practices into one's life and picking a single path. Both can need done. There are Jewish Buddhists out there. But, from my perspective, if someone wants to think of themselves as an Epicurean, they have to share some principles and practices with other "Epicureans" for that word to have meaning.

Quote from Cassius

I never thought we were far apart on this and after further discussion I feel sure of it

On the actual topic of suicide, I would agree. I think we both understand someone's (maybe even my own) decision to take that step in the extreme of pain and suffering. I think that's a humane and humble position to have.

That said, I don't necessarily think that's a position that Epicurus or the Epicurean school would take. I don't see textual evidence of that position. We can rationalize that they might have taken it, but I'm not seeing textual evidence of it.

Quote from Cassius

There are not really any Ideal forms or essences of "Epicureans," only individual people who claim to more or less apply Epicurean views in their lives - and no matter how many doctrines we add or subtract from a person there is no essence or ideal form of an Epicurean for us to justify our labelling, or any moment when an Epicurean ceases to be an Epicurean due to a loss of sufficient Epicurean elements.

Hmmm... Well, under that definition of "Epicurean," it seems to me that I could call myself a "Christian" if I want to. There have to be some Epicurean criteria or some "essential" (I don't like the word but I'll use it) doctrines by which one lives their life to be considered an Epicurean. Otherwise the word has no meaning.

I wasn't saying that Cassius Longinus wasn't an Epicurean. In fact, I said he was an Epicurean. I'm saying his decision to kill himself was in keeping with his heritage and upbringing as to what it meant to be a Roman citizen in a military setting. He could be both things. I would even go so far as to posit that him laying down his life in a manner befitting a Roman may even have given him pleasure in the end. He determined he would die *as a Roman* and not as some kind of captured criminal or slave.

Quote from ccarruth42

Don, are you pointing to an experience similar to what's reported when someone is on their deathbed and a loved one tells them that it's ok to go if they need to. Basically, the loved one tells the sick person they have permission to let go when they're ready. So instead of clinging to life, they now have permission to "exit the play"?

To me, this scenario seems to match the sentiment behind your quote

Quote from Don

It's accepting one's imminent death "animo aequo" with no more concern than walking out of a play that has no pleasure anymore. "Torquatus" acknowledges that there is no pleasure in the pain, but death is imminent so it's time to not regret or complain to the gods and so on. It's time to hold on to the only thing you have left in your final moments,

Exactly! Well put. That's one of the exact scenarios I was thinking of!

Quote from Cassius

It is easy for me to imagine hypothetical circumstances in which continuing to live would result in overwhelming pain with virtually no offsetting pleasure whatsoever.

Oh, it's easy for me, too. If I ever encounter that situation in my life, what will I do? I don't know, but I'm not discounting the option out of hand. Consider a diagnosis of Alzheimer's or a degenerative physical disease where everything, one's mind and one's control over one's body are slowly, inexorably taken from you accompanied by constant pain. Would you - would I - choose to end our suffering? This also brings up the difference between "suffering" and "pain." They're not the same. Is suicide - or physician-assisted suicide - an option?

I have no problem coming up with hypothetical situations around this topic.

But you also say "virtually no offsetting pleasure whatsoever," which implies that there's *some* "offsetting pleasure" which almost looks to me like a description of Epicurus's end of life.

Like I said above, I might agree with in principle that suicide - or physician-assisted suicide - is a viable end of life option in extremis, but I'm wrestling with whether or not that's necessarily an Epicurean response to that situation. I'm just not seeing justification for that in the extant texts. I *fully* agree with you as you've said elsewhere about Epicurus insisting that we take charge for our lives and choices. But, as far as I can see in the texts, Epicurus and Metrodorus and "Torquatus" never advocated for suicide in response to "intolerable" pain. You've mentioned that Epicurus was able to tolerate his pain and so he wasn't experiencing "intolerable" pain, but to my mind that's splitting hairs. If someone tells me that can't image any greater pain than they were already experiencing and that they feel they're dying within the day, that sounds pretty "intolerable" to me. (Now, whether Epicurus's letter has been embellished over the centuries? Maybe, but we have the text that we have.)

Quote from Cassius

"Do you think Epicurus would say that Cassius made a poor decision in committing suicide rather than handing himself over to Antony's men?"

I hesitant to put words in dead people's mouth, so I won't speak for Epicurus. I will say that it seems to be that G. Cassius Longinus committed suicide because he was a Roman, first and foremost, not because he was an Epicurean. His Roman culture and upbringing and conditioning led him to that - probably to him - inescapable decision to take his life.

Quote from Cassius

The main issue is that I don't see a bright line saying "hang in there to the very last moment" that would apply to everyone in all situations.

It's not a "hang in there until the last moment." That kind of "grit your teeth and bear it" is a Stoic response. That's not what I'm saying the texts say. If you're in pain, you can scream, yell, bite down on a wooden stick, writhe. An Epicurean is not going to "grin and bear it."

BUT, I'm seeing the texts within the time period they were written, which is why it's so hard translating specific ancient situations into modern "hypothetical" scenarios. The intolerable pain, the pain with no pleasure left, the mind-numbing all-encompassing pain - when those texts were written - is going to lead to death imminently. You have wounds or a disease like that, it's going to kill you - most likely in short order. And, even if you are in pain, try to remember to face it "animo aequo" - no regrets, no fear, no superstition.

On the other hand, modern science can work medical miracles in situations that would have been lethal in ancient times! That's where the difficulty comes in. Is it better to allow someone to die rather than provide "life-saving" (usually "life-prolonging-at-what-expense") treatment? That's where the modern "death positive" community is so intriguing and important in providing information on palliative care, hospice care, etc. If pain can be managed and suffering relieved, death can be faced "animo aequo".

Quote from Cassius

"never consider suicide lightly and always consider it to be a last resort but know that death is available to you as a relief from pain if in fact you judge the situation makes it the best choice."

Fully agree with that first statement! And that's where the "death positive" movement says that there are ways to mitigate suffering as death approaches. If it is "the best choice," it has to be after every other option has been weighed because of its finality. Too many people see it as just another choice. Here are some statistics about suicide in the US:

Suicide Data and Statistics | Suicide | CDC

This is why the letter to Menoikeus section is so important in my view. Epicurus is specifically addressing people who talk flippantly about suicide and "leaving life as quickly as possible." It couldn't have been the Stoics either, because they were not the powerhouse they would become at the time Epicurus was writing. This seems to be a general cultural attitude in ancient Greece.

And I know you're not talking flippantly. I know that and want to acknowledge that. But when we talk about suicide being a "choice" or even the "best choice" it seems the old slippery slope argument to making it just another choice if there's pain in one's life. And Epicurus and the Epicurean school did not endorse that in any way.

Quote from Cassius

death is unconsciousness for eternity

I know you didn't mean it this way, but I'll note it anyway. I would caution against using a word like "unconsciousness for eternity" in that context. Unconsciousness is still a state of being and implies a being that is unconscious. Death is the complete absence of sensation and feeling because there's no thing to sense or feel. There is no being - no person, no thing - after one dies. It is the complete cessation of life. Nada. Zilch. No thing. Like I said, I know you didn't mean anything like that by using that word, but it stuck out to me when I read it like "Oops! Better nip this one in the bud before someone else latches onto it!"

Quote from Cassius via Epicurus Wiki

The fourth tenet of the Four-Part Cure alludes precisely to this: what is painful, is easy to endure. In illness, we hope to regain our health; even when the illness is chronic and painful, the pain grows dull with habituation, and we learn to cherish the pleasures left us, despite the pain; finally, when pain reaches an unbearable maximum, death cannot be far behind it -- and death means the cessation of the senses, and thus of both pleasure and pain.

Epicurus' view on suicide is both humane and practical: it does not entirely disallow suicide (as does Christianity, and other religious faiths), nor does it offer it too readily, either as escapism or as an article in some code of honor (as have done several militarist cultures).

In principle, I think I agree with that last paragraph, but, for me, it would be an extrapolation from the existing texts and not based on any I've read (in this thread or outside of it). Especially in the letter to Menoikeus, Epicurus seems to come down hard on those who talk about exiting life as quickly as possible. He doesn't appear to add any qualifiers. The end of life situations I read are about living life in a manner that will allow you to accept imminent death at the end, even if accompanied by "pains that cannot be augmented," with no regrets, no cursing the gods, no fear of an afterlife, etc.

Quote from Cassius

I would see "exiting the play when it has ceased to please us" as a viable option.

As I mentioned, I don't see that line as saying what you're interpreting it as. I see it as having no more concern for the approach of imminent death as one would in "exiting the play when it has ceased to please us." The emphasis is not on an active walking out or actively killing oneself that's the metaphor. It's accepting one's imminent death "animo aequo" with no more concern than walking out of a play that has no pleasure anymore. "Torquatus" acknowledges that there is no pleasure in the pain, but death is imminent so it's time to not regret or complain to the gods and so on. It's time to hold on to the only thing you have left in your final moments,

"animo aequo".

Quote from Cassius

And in support of that spirit I would enlist "spitting contempt on life and on those who cling to it" as the same spirit of taking charge of your death just as you take charge of your life:

VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and I have closed off every one of your devious entrances. And we will not give ourselves up as captives, to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who cling to it maundering, we will leave from life singing aloud a glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived.

Same here for Metrodorus's Vatican Saying. You seem to imply that he encourages us to kill ourselves while "singing aloud a glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived." I don't get that at all. He's a little hyperbolic but he's encouraging the same things as I've mentioned above. When the end comes and you know what's coming, sing "a glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived." Don't cling needlessly to life if you're dying. Don't try to bargain with the gods. If you've lived well, be happy for that! Life is done. Take the example of Epicurus's death and look back on a life well-lived with pleasant memories as death is imminent.

Here is a paper that cites the one you referenced (that one behind the paywall)

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f6a6/8bb87913d6481817873845afa32fd0385936.pdf

I want to state here that this discussion of suicide is not meant to be casual or flippant. It is an exploration of the ancient texts.

I am sure all of us would encourage anyone dealing with thoughts of suicide to reach out for help to a friend or to a medical professional or to the national 988 number.

Today in the US, “988” is the three-digit, nationwide phone number to connect directly to the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline as established by the FCC.

Quote from Cassius

you are taking the position that suicide is never warranted for an Epicurean?

I'm not sure I'm saying that, especially in light of modern medical intervention that can continue physical existence but not provide quality of life. Right now, I'm neither saying nor not saying suicide is never an option for an Epicurean. I (think) I am saying I'm not seeing any advocacy for suicide as a viable option in any of the texts.

Quote from Cassius

So that while you might choose to die 'for a friend" you would never choose to die "for yourself"?

I think that's an apple and orange argument. To me, the reason you would "die for a friend" is that if the friend dies and you *could* have saved them, you have to live with that pain for the remainder of your life. I don't think that's applicable to the discussion of whether suicide is an option as an end of life decision.

There's also the section on death in the Letter to Menoikeus (emphasis added):

Quote from Epicurus's Letter to Menoikeus

Furthermore, accustom yourself in believing that, for us, death is nothing since all pleasure and pain are in perception of the senses and the mind, and death is the absolute negation of perception. So, correct understanding is that death is nothing for us, and this is what makes the mortality of life enjoyable: not gaining an endless lifetime for oneself but taking away the yearning for not dying or immortality. [125] For there is nothing terrible in living for the one who truly comprehends that there is nothing terrible in not living. So, the one who says death is to be feared is foolish, not that there will be pain and distress when it is present but that there is pain in anticipation; because that which is present does not trouble, disquiet, or annoy, and anticipation itself pains and distresses one fruitlessly. Death, that which causes utter horror, which causes one to shudder, that "most utterly horrifying of pains" as it is understood by the hoi polloi, then is nothing to us. On the one hand, at the time when we are (that is while we are living), death is not present; on the other hand, whenever death is present, then we are not (i.e., we don't exist). Death is neither a concern for those who are living nor for those whose lives are ended.

But the hoi polloi, on the one hand, flee from death as if it is the greatest evil, then, on the other hand, on the other hand, they desire for themselves an ending of the evil (pain) in living. [126] So then, the wise one neither begs nor craves for living nor fears not living: Neither to set oneself against living, nor to imagine that it is evil to not live. Just as the most food is not chosen but that which brings the greatest pleasure; choose as well not the longest time but that in which one enjoys the fruits of that which bring the greatest pleasure.

So, the one who exhorts, on the one hand, for the one who is young to live nobly; and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed but also because the practice of living well, nobly, and beautifully and the practice of dying well, nobly, and beautifully are the same. But far worse is the one who says, on the one hand, it is well not to be born; or, on the other hand,

"failing this, to pass through the gates of Hades as soon as possible."

[127] On the one hand, if what they say is persuasive, how does one not depart from life? For this is readily at hand, if indeed one was to resolve oneself steadfastly to this. If, on the other hand, this is in jest, one is foolish for making fun of things which do not admit of this.

To me, all those underlined parts are saying the same this as leaving life "animo aequo."

Quote from Cassius

This is certainly an interesting question, especially in regard to Epicurus' own death. It has never been clear to me from the texts whether Epicurus knew that his condition was irreversible and terminal, or whether he had hope of recovery, which I think would make all the difference in a situation like his.

Well, he says ""On this blissful day, which is also the last of my life" That sounds pretty irreversible and terminal to me.

Quote from Cassius

very close to a "mind over reality" situation

Oh, I don't think that at all. Even the sage will cry out on the rack. But leaving life "animo aequo" just means:

aequo (aequiore, aequissimo) animo, with even mind, with equanimity, patiently, calmly, quietly, with forbearance

If you're experiencing that much intolerable pain, you know what's coming. Scream, wail, cry out in pain, but don't rail against. Don't curse the gods. Don't complain about regrets in your life. If you *know* you're dying (which is what that kind of pain meant in Epicurus's day) and there's no escape, face it "animo aequo".

Quote from Cassius

Do you not think that such situations exist? Or do you think that .even in such extreme circumstances we have the mental power to suppress our pain?

Again, I'm not saying the pain is repressed like a Stoic. I'm saying the pain is real, intolerable, and lethal. An Epicurean isn't "suppressing" anything. They're feeling and acknowledging their pain. If it's that bad, they understand the end is near. All this comes out of the medical assistance that was available in Epicurus's day.

Where we're at now with medical treatment is a different story entirely.

Quote from Cassius

you are Not going to die voluntarily if there is any reasonable way around it.

Again, I bring up the example of Epicurus's death. He *knew* he was going to die, and yet he still didn't choose to die voluntarily, even though there was no way around it.

Quote from Cassius

sometimes you choose to die for a friend is clearly stated, and everyone should be a friend to themselves, so I definitely think that applies.

Hmm... not sure if I agree here either. That seems a little convoluted in being a friend to yourself so you'll die for you? I think this is an apple and oranges situation here.

Quote from ccarruth42

Does VS38 apply to this EOL question? Reading through the PD and VS and saw it.

"He is of very small account for whom there are many good reasons for ending his life."

Exactly, ccarruth42 !

There's also VS75:

This saying is utterly ungrateful for the good things one has achieved: provide for the end of a long life.

εἰς τὰ παρῳχηκότα ἀγαθὰ ἀχάριστος φωνὴ ἡ λέγουσα· τέλος ὅρα μακροῦ βίου.

Saint-Andre has a note to this translation: The force of ὅρα here might be "provide for" (as I have translated it), "beware", or even just "look to"; the overall sense is that preparing for a supposed afterlife shows a lack of appreciation for the good things of life on earth.

Vatican Sayings, by Epicurus

Cicero, De Finibus 1.15.49

ut enim mortis metu omnis quietae vitae status perturbatur, et ut succumbere doloribus eosque humili animo inbecilloque ferre miserum est, ob eamque debilitatem animi multi parentes, multi amicos, non nulli patriam, plerique autem se ipsos penitus perdiderunt, sic robustus animus et excelsus omni est liber cura et angore, cum et mortem contemnit, qua qui affecti sunt in eadem causa sunt, qua ante quam nati, et ad dolores ita paratus est, ut meminerit maximos morte finiri, parvos multa habere intervalla requietis, mediocrium nos esse dominos, ut, si tolerabiles sint, feramus, si minus, animo aequo e vita, cum ea non placeat, tamquam e theatro exeamus.

Specifically:

si tolerabiles sint, feramus, si minus, animo aequo e vita, cum ea non placeat, tamquam e theatro exeamus.

Rackham's translation (that Cassius gives above) reads:

It is schooled to encounter pain by recollecting that pains of great severity are ended by death, and slight ones have frequent intervals of respite; while those of medium intensity lie within our own control: we can bear them if they are endurable, or if they are not, we may serenely quit life's theater, when the play has ceased to please us.

Yonge (from Project Gutenberg ) reads:

For as the whole condition of tranquil life is thrown into confusion by the fear of death, and as it is a miserable thing to yield to pain and to bear it with a humble and imbecile mind; and as on account of that weakness of mind many men have ruined their parents, many men their friends, some their country, and very many indeed have utterly undone themselves; so a vigorous and lofty mind is free from all care and pain, since it despises death, which only places those who encounter it in [pg 116]the same condition as that in which they were before they were born; and it is so prepared for pain that it recollects that the very greatest are terminated by death, and that slight pains have many intervals of rest, and that we can master moderate ones, so as to bear them if they are tolerable, **and if not, we can depart with equanimity out of life, just as out of a theatre, when it no longer pleases us.**

Okay, so here are those initial thoughts I foreshadowed previously...

I read this text in relation to PD4

"Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains." (Saint-Andre)

The reason that "the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time" is because, in Epicurus's time at least, that meant it would kill you.

However, according to this PD again, "diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains."

Both sections of this PD are exactly the situations that Epicurus found himself in, but he wrote on his deathbed: "My continual sufferings from strangury and dysentery are so great that nothing could augment them." If there was a time to advocate suicide, this would surely have been a place to do it. And yet, Epicurus's conduct at the end of life even gets lauded by Stoics like Marcus Aurelius and Seneca.

I've admitted my Latin is rudimentary, at best, but it seems to be that the way the punctuation in the Latin goes seems to set up the following phrases:

si tolerabiles sint "if it (pain) is tolerable"

feramus "we bear (it)"

si minus "if not"

animo aequo "with a calm mind"

e vita "from life"

cum ea non placeat "when it (life) no longer pleases"

tamquam e theatro exeamus "as if we are exiting from a theater"

Read in the context of PD4, this Ciceronian text says to me: When pain is no longer tolerable, it is going to kill you. but you should be able to face that situation, with a calm mind, as if you're simply exiting a theater presenting a play that you are no longer enjoying.

To my reading, this text is not advocating suicide even in the most extreme cases, because Epicurus was experiencing pains so bad that "nothing could augment them." But, even then, he set his "gladness of mind" against that pain to recall happy memories.

If you break down the Yonge translation:

1. the very greatest [pains] are terminated by death

2. slight pains have many intervals of rest

3. we can master moderate ones, so as to bear them if they are tolerable

4. if not, we can depart with equanimity out of life, just as out of a theatre, when it no longer pleases us.

To my reading of the text, it is saying that if you have intolerable pain, it'll be over soon. Keep your calm mind in anticipation of leaving life as you would walking out of a theater when the play no longer pleases you.

I don't think I'm doing any tricky or complex exegesis here. I'm trying to read the text as literally as possible, and I'm not seeing an advocacy of suicide in any sense.

Cassius: Would you want to move posts #6 to the end to a new thread so we don't hijack the original intent of this thread?

LOL! Just to check myself:

Definition of ALBEIT

even though : although… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Yeah, I'm still not sure I agree, but this'll have to wait until later. I have thoughts.

Quote from Cassius

It is schooled to encounter pain by recollecting that pains of great severity are ended by death, and slight ones have frequent intervals of respite; while those of medium intensity lie within our own control: we can bear them if they are endurable, or if they are not, we may serenely quit life's theater, when the play has ceased to please us.

Hmm... I've seen other translations and the Latin and I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation as that text endorsing suicide as a solution albeit in the extreme. I'll create another thread possibly so this thread isn't hijacked.

Quote from Kalosyni

So it is incorrect to translate it as "culture"? (as Monadnock does in above translation).

The word is παιδεία which refers to the educational system that made one a "good citizen" of the polis, very pro-Platonic and pro- Aristotelian. So, acculturation and indoctrination are my preferred translations.

Quote from Cassius

here is also the slightly less agreeable (but still true) implication that we are "able to leave when the play has ceased to please us" -- meaning that under truly horrible circumstances there is always the possibility of taking our "final exit."

I know you bring this up on occasion, but I can never remember the textual reference. Where is that?