Posts by Don

For contrast...

Quote from Epictetus, Discourses 3.3

In this manner ought every one chiefly to train himself. When you go out in the morning, examine whomsoever you see or hear; and answer as if to a question. What have you seen? A handsome person. Apply the rule. Is this a thing controllable by Will or uncontrollable? Uncontrollable. Then discard it. What have you seen? One in agony for the death of a child. Apply the rule. Death is inevitable. Banish this despair, then.

This is an interesting dialogue in Epictetus, too:

Epictetus, Discourses, book 3, Concerning a certain governor who was an epicurean.

Quote from Joshua

(Mis)Quoting Epicurus--An Analysis of Language in Epictetus

The title of your thread caught me eye too since I just started listening to a new podcast: Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman.

Time for a new podcast spinoff from Lucretius Today? Misquoting Epicurus with Joshua and Dr. Emily Austin

Quote from Joshua

Somehow I don't think that modern Stoics would accept this argument if it were put the other way--if it were claimed, for example, that Torquatus, Lucretius, or Philodemus understood Stoicism better than any modern Stoic ever could.

While there's no question Epictetus, Cicero, Arrian, Plutarch, Paul the Apostle, et al. would have known more about Epicureanism than we do, would have known practicing Epicureans, and would have had access to Epicurean texts now lost to us, it's also no question that they all had axes to grind, were no friend to the philosophy, and had no reason to give an unbiased report. There is no reason why we shouldn't take a cautious approach to what they wrote about a rival philosophy while at the same time being grateful (??) to them for transmitting to us what they did. At the same time, these are the same people and their ilk that burned, threw away, and generally discarded the Epicurean texts in the first place, so my gratitude only goes so far.

Nice work, Joshua! I found this to maybe provide even more context.

Quote from Usener w translation via Attalus website

[ U523 ]

Lactantius, Divine Institutes, III.17.42: [Epicurus maintains that] pleasure is the greatest good; there is no human society – each one takes thought for himself. {Cf. U581}

Cf. Cicero, Letters to Atticus, VII.2.4: …Carneades {spoke} with more wisdom than our philosophers Lucius and Patron, who in sticking to selfish hedonism and denying altruism, and saying that man must be virtuous for fear of the consequences of vice and not because virtue is an end in itself, fail to see that they are describing a manner not of goodness but of craftiness.

Arrian, Diatribes of Epictetus, II.20.6: So too Epicurus, when he wishes to abolish the natural fellowship of men with one another, makes use of the very thing he is destroying. For what does he say? "Don’t be deceived, men, or misled or mistaken: there is no natural fellowship of rational beings with each other. Believe me: those who say otherwise are deceiving you and reasoning falsely."

Ibid., II.20.20: So with Epicurus: he cut off everything that characterizes a man, the head of a household, a citizen, and a friend, but he did not succeed in cutting off the desires of human beings; for that he could not do.

http://www.attalus.org/translate/epicurus3.html

Usener. Epicurea. 1887. p.318

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Usener includes that as a quote of Epicurus in U523, but also includes several others in U523 as context. So, Arrian could easily be paraphrasing for his own purposes or even pulling out of context for his own purposes.

On this very topic, I agree with Dr. Austin when she talks and writes about Epicurus and the community of Epicureans relying on each other. Epicurus took guardianship of children, made arrangements for dowries, allowed people to name their children after him, made arrangements for people to live in his house and garden after he died, and so on. That doesn't sound like someone who was vehemently opposed to "fellowship of rational beings."

It seems that Arrian, via Epictetus, is setting up a diatribe against Epicurus and so is more than willing to do what it takes to make his point.

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus owned two cloaks

I saw this all over the internet, but no source.

- Seneca, in letter 87, talks about having two cloaks: one as a spread, one as a cover.

- Eupolis calls the sophists "parasites" because they had two cloaks to choose from when they visited the agora. (in Flatterers, fragment 159)

- Juvenal in Satire 13, talks about the Cynics having two cloaks; the Stoics, one.

I have no idea where Epicurus only having two cloaks comes from.

Quote from Cassius

subsisted mostly on bread and olives

Mostly from same Internet searches... But at least he's eating bread, olives, water, and cheese.

PS: I would like to say this is a minor point. It's right off the bat so it stands out, but it's not a make or break because it seems having just two cloaks in ancient Greece wasn't that big of a deal. It's like "bread and water" being the quintessential daily meal and not some sort of "spartan" ascetic practice.

PPS. Still about 14 minutes to go in the podcast episode but so far SO refreshing to hear such positive conversation on a mainstream podcast of Epicureanism and Epicurus! Can't wait to finish.... But it's late so I'll leave that till morning.

I'm thinking it might be more advantages to *describe* the condition we want to be free of rather than use a single word (since that's my modus operandi when I translate from ancient Greek ). By "free from anxiety" I mean...

Free from incessant, nagging doubt or worry of whether past actions were the right ones to take, whether present circumstances are the right course to take, and whether the future is to dreaded.

That's just a first draft for conversation!

Quote from Todd

I could certainly imagine myself relaxing by a gentle stream, ruminating about some ideas I'd recently encountered

See, now I'd call that contemplating or cogitating.

Quote from Cassius

What? "Rumination" is not generally a negative word, is it?

LOL. I've never had a positive connotation associated with ruminate

To me, it's chewing over something in your mind over and over without getting anywhere.

Quote from Kalosyni

instead of anxiety we could use the word "worry"?

I'm coming around to the word "rumination."

Rumination: Relationships with Physical Health

Rumination is a form of perserverative cognition that focuses on negative content, generally past and present, and results in emotional distress. Initial…

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Although "worry" could work for future directed anxiety.

Quote from Kalosyni

should everyone try to live a worry-free life? Is it even possible? Would a worry-free life be worth living?

Yes to all, in my opinion. It comes down to whether one can take action or not. It seems similar to the sentiment encapsulated in that Serenity Prayer. Basically, if something can be done about a situation, do it. If nothing can be done, don't worry about it. Make prudent decisions about both.

Quote from Kalosyni

Should questions like these remain a personal exploration, so there is no right or wrong or absolute answer that applies to everyone or to every time and place? Or is this a help line of discussion amongst friends?

It seems to me that Epicurus was fairly clear and firm that ataraxia was a necessary component of a pleasurable life. It's not morally right or wrong, it's a way of experiencing our lives, clear-eyed, worry-free, and taking prudent action in all situations that will lead to the most pleasurable life possible for ourselves.

PS: And I speak as a "recovering ruminator" myself!

I read that New York Times article and what kept running through my head was...

Quote from Inigo Montoya

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It seems to me they're using "anxiety" to mean several different things because the word attracts attention. "Anxiety is good" is better than a nuanced approach to the research and findings. I certainly wouldn't use "anxiety" to describe the several different emotions they're discussing.

I want to say explicitly that, from my perspective, Emily (Dr. Austin preferred Emily on our podcast conversation, so I feel I can use her first name ) did an *exceptional* job of placing tranquility and freedom from anxiety in context while maintaining its importance in Epicurean philosophy. I completely agree with her characterization. And just to make sure I understood her characterization, my take is that Epicurus taught that ataraxia was vitally important for the both the pleasure that a calm, anxiety-free mind brings itself BUT ALSO that it allows the enjoyment of other pleasures - both necessary and extravagant - in our lives more fully. With tranquil minds, we are more fully present to the everyday pleasures we experience, like a wholesome lunch of warm fresh bread and cool water... Just as an example

Quote from The Guardian

Freedom from anxiety is good, all other things being equal, but many would say that a willingness to do without tranquility is what has enabled them to push themselves and live fuller lives.

(clears throat...)

Quote from Epicurus

For we recognize it as the primary and innate good, we honor it in everything we accept or reject, and we achieve it if we judge every good thing by the standard of how that thing affects us. And because this is the primary and inborn good, we do not choose every pleasure. Instead, we pass up many pleasures when we will gain more of what we need from doing so. And we consider many pains to be better than pleasures, if we experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains. So every pleasure is a good thing because its nature is favorable to us, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen — just as every pain is a bad thing, yet not every pain is always to be shunned. It is proper to make all these decisions through measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages, for sometimes we treat a good thing as bad and a bad thing as good.

Just sayin', Guardian. Epicurus has you covered.

A generally positive review in The Guardian is no small feat!! Congratulations to Dr. Austin!

I can easily imagine the Stoics huffing and puffing and "Oh, they just don't understand Stoicism!!" Methinks we understand y'all better than you think.

Quote from Cassius

it becomes easier to see as if for the first time how much of Epicurus is a direct rejection of Platonic idealism

It's like - oh, I don't know - like coming out of a cave and seeing the light for the first time

I found it so great seeing Sagan talk the talk against Plato while being in a cave! Well played, Carl. Well played.

Oh, man! That video takes me back. I was a huge fan of Sagan in high school. I even remembering wearing a turtleneck or two in his honor Weren't we talking about taking on distinctive clothing of one's sect in another thread?

Sagan definitely doesn't pull any punches on Plato! Bravo! It lays out the "case against" Plato and his "ideas are better than the natural world" fallacy.

I often forget that Samos was part of Ionia, and that Aristarchus (c. 310 – c. 230 BCE) was actually born on Samos after Epicurus (341–270 BC) around the time Epicurus was teaching at Mytilene. Aristarchus was a student of Strato of Lampsacus, who was the third head of the Peripatetic School in Greece. And Lampsacus is, of course, familiar to Epicureans! Per Wikipedia, Strato might have known Epicurus during his period of teaching in Lampsacus between 310 and 306 BCE. The ideas of natural science and observation of nature were swirling all around Ionia before and during Epicurus's time there during his upbringing and early teaching career.

Quote from Joshua

Don, you're a wizard! Thank you very much for looking for that, I'll add it to my source collection.

I was happy to do it... even though it drove me mad trying to dig it up I did this at work today so the above is a photo from my phone of my work computer screen!

Here is the link to Internet Archive:

Bullettino dell'Instituto di corrispondenza archeologica = Bulletin de l'Institut de correspondance archéologique : Instituto di corrispondenza archeologica : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The years 1854-55 were not published separately, but were included in the first two of the three volumes in-folio entitled: Monumenti, annali e bullettini...

archive.org

Found it!!!

Bull. D. Inst. is the Bullettino dell'Instituto di correspondenza archeologica from 1831

Page 112, no. 78 on a list...

So, not any additional information but at least we know what that @#$& cryptic citation was referring to!

Quote from Cassius

Also, re-reading that footnote, how are you people interpreting the "inscribed LVCR in the lettering of his own time"?

"His" meaning Lucretius, or "his" meaning Dr. Nott?

Lucretius's, I'd say.

Downloaded Daff Moon. Very cool! I especially like - from an Epicurean perspective - that it gives the age of the moon at the bottom. Now, all I have to do is check when it turns over to 20 days and tahdah! It's the eikas... aka protera dekatē!

Downloaded Daff Moon. Very cool! I especially like - from an Epicurean perspective - that it gives the age of the moon at the bottom. Now, all I have to do is check when it turns over to 20 days and tahdah! It's the eikas... aka protera dekatē!