Posts by Don

Quote from Onenski

Quote from Don

Metrodorus stresses the importance of both kinds of pleasures, but he also wrote a book entitled "On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects."

Hi, Don!

I think I have another possible interpretation of Metrodorus' book title. This is the idea: who is "ourselves" referring to? The first and obvious interpretation is "each one of us, internally". Another possible interpretation is "us, as a community of epicurean friends".

What I mean is that we can derive two very different ideas from the title of the book. The first one is, I think, in some sense ascetic, or individualistic: "I can be happy and have pleasure by myself. I don't need the objects around me" (I'm exaggerating for clearness). The second one is more social: "the greatest pleasures are not in wine, banquets, money, etc. The greatest pleasures are in ourselves, people, in the moments we have in our community with our friends".

All this depends, of course, on the ambiguity of the "ourselves" in English, so if it doesn't exist in Greek, just ignore my comment 😅

In any case, my own opinion about katastematic pleasures is that I think they don't derive from epicurean physics, so the only reason we can have to defend them must be a practical reason. So, if we accept the distinction between kinetic and katastematic pleasures, it must be because is useful for having a joyful life.

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I think you raise a very interesting interpretation. As you said, it depends on the Greek. So, let's see what we can find:

On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects

Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ημας αιτιαν προς ευδαιμονιαν της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον

Let's break this down...which I should have done at the beginning! I should know better than to take any translation at face value.

Περι just introduces the book title like "On.." "About..." "Concerning..."

μειζονα is the "greater, larger"

την παρ' ημας αιτιαν has an embedded phrase is something like "the cause for us"

The "in Ourselves" in the original translation appears to come from παρ' ημας appears to be stock phrase in the language meaning “resulting from us"

ημας is the accusative of ἡμεῖς (hēmeîs): us (1st person plural)

προς ευδαιμονιαν toward happiness (lit. eudaimonia)

της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον that which is good from things (pragmaton)

πρᾶγμᾰ (prâgma) n (genitive πρᾱ́γμᾰτος); third declension

• deed, act, fact
• occurrence, matter, affair
• thing
• (in the plural) circumstances, affairs

So, I'm not sure that solves the question, but there's some information to add to the discussion.

Another translation now could be "Concerning that cause resulting from us that leads to eudaimonia is greater than that which is good from things." Clunky, I know, but as literal as I can make it.

PS. My main hesitation in ascribing a community meaning to "resulting from ourselves" is that the quote from the book describes an internal state: "What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?"

I haven't decided if this is going to be useful or not, but I went through Diogenes Laertius, Book 10, and pulled out the times that ataraxia (or a form of the word) shows up:

Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus:

[80] we must not suppose that our treatment of these matters fails of accuracy, so far as it is needful to ensure our tranquillity and happiness*. When, therefore, we investigate the causes of celestial and atmospheric phenomena, as of all that is unknown, we must take into account the variety of ways in which analogous occurrences happen within our experience ; while as for those who do not recognize the difference between what is or comes about from a single cause and that which may be the effect of any one of several causes, overlooking the fact that the objects are only seen at a distance, and are moreover ignorant of the conditions that render, or do not render, peace of mind** impossible --all such persons we must treat with contempt. If then we think that an event could happen in one or other particular way out of several, ***we shall be as tranquil*** when we recognize that it actually comes about in more ways than one as if we knew that it happens in this particular way.

*τὸ ἀτάραχον καὶ μακάριον (to atarakhon (&) makarion): atarakhon is a form of the word ataraxia; makarion is the word used to describe the blessedness of the gods.

**ἀταρακτῆσαι ataraktesai

**ἀταρακτήσομεν ataraktesomen "we shall be tranquil"

[82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

*ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)

Epicurus, Letter to Pythocles:

[85] In the first place, remember that, like everything else, knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether taken along with other things or in isolation, has no other end in view than peace of mind* and firm conviction.

*ἀταραξίαν ataraxian/ataraksian

[96] if you fight against clear evidence, you never can enjoy genuine peace of mind*.

* ἀταραξίας ataraxias/ataraksias

Diogenes Laertius, X.128:

[128] He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body and *tranquillity of mind*, seeing that this is the sum and end of a blessed life.

* τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ἀταραξίαν ten tes psykhes ataraxian/ataraksian

Diogenes Laertius, X.136:

The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : "*Peace of mind* and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest ; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity."

ὁ δ᾽ Ἐπίκουρος ἐν τῷ Περὶ αἱρέσεων οὕτω λέγει: "ἡ μὲν γὰρ *ἀταραξία* καὶ ἀπονία καταστηματικαί εἰσιν ἡδοναί: ἡ δὲ χαρὰ καὶ ἡ εὐφροσύνη κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ βλέπονται."

PD17:

17. The just man enjoys the *greatest peace of mind*, while the unjust is full of the utmost **disquietude**.

Ὁ δίκαιος *ἀταρακτότατος*, ὁ δ᾽ ἄδικος πλείστης **ταραχῆς** γέμων.

*ἀταρακτότατος ataraktotatos

Compare **ταραχῆς** tarakhes (the latter part of a + taraksia "not + disquietude")

I would add to this the two forms of γαλήνιος "calm" shows up as well.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Don

Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus,

So sounds like "calmness" coming through the practice of studying natural science?

And at the end of the letter to Herodotus, Epicurus writes:

"It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind (γαληνισμὸν galenismon - related to the same word he uses to describe his own calm coming from the study of nature)."

Quote from Kalosyni

Thinking about the larger context:

It possible that the "calm" within Epicureanism is refering to the feeling which arises when one thinks about "when death is, I will not be" and the "gods do not punish" (they are not the cause of thunder and lightening and they are not involved with humans).

So it is not a "mind-over-matter" like in Hinduism or Buddhism, but rather reasoning through those two things (death and the nature of the gods).

Is there any other practices in Epicureanism besides these two, that would lead to a feeling of "calm"?

[37] "Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus

ἐγγαληνίζω τῷ βίῳ, "spend life calmly"

from γαληνίζω ,

A.calm, still, esp. waves or winds, Hp.Vict.3.71, E.Fr.1079.

2. intr., become calm, prob. in Hp. Morb.Sacr.13; to be calm or tranquil, Alex.178.6, Ph.1.354; “τὸ γαληνίζον τῆς θαλάττης” Arist.Pr.936a5:—so in Med., Xenocr. ap. Orib.2.58.98.

Very much enjoyed the novel The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell on this topic

The Sparrow (novel) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Joshua

Quote

-GAUNT-

All places that the eye of heaven visits

Are to a wise man ports and happy havens.

Teach thy necessity to reason thus:

There is no virtue like necessity.

Think not the King did banish thee,

But thou the King. Woe doth the heavier sit

Where it perceives it is but faintly borne.

Go, say I sent thee forth to purchase honor,

And not the King exiled thee; or suppose

Devouring pestilence hangs in our air

And thou art flying to a fresher clime.

Look what thy soul holds dear, imagine it

To lie that way thou goest, not whence thou com’st.

Suppose the singing birds musicians,

The grass whereon thou tread’st the presence

strewed,

The flowers fair ladies, and thy steps no more

Than a delightful measure or a dance;

For gnarling sorrow hath less power to bite

The man that mocks at it and sets it light.

-BOLINGBROKE-

O, who can hold a fire in his hand

By thinking on the frosty Caucasus?

Or cloy the hungry edge of appetite

By bare imagination of a feast?

Or wallow naked in December snow

By thinking on fantastic summer’s heat?

O no, the apprehension of the good

Gives but the greater feeling to the worse.

Fell sorrow’s tooth doth never rankle more

Than when he bites but lanceth not the sore.

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I was thinking of this exchange in Richard II in relation to 'ataraxia under duress'. John of Gaunt is Bolingbroke's father, and has dutifully argued for his own son's banishment--a service to the king which he comes to bitterly regret. One senses that his advice is as much for himself as for his son. But Bolingbroke is having none of it. "Who can hold a fire in his hand by thinking on the frosty Caucasus?"

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I had thoughts of ataraxia under duress watching this interview with David Hogg. He addresses the idea specifically (using calm not ataraxia, of course) starting around 0:58.

Quote from Cassius

VS08. The wealth required by Nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth required by vain ideals extends to infinity

"Required?"

Yeah, I don't see *required* in the Greek. It literally just says "is" ἐστιν.

As literal as possible:

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος "The wealth of nature..."

καὶ ὥρισται* καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, "is the best and easily procured...

ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν (kenōn doxōn "empty beliefs/principles/doctrines") εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει. "But that of empty opinions runs onto infinity."

*πλοῦτος ploutos. Ex., plutocracy. Wealth, riches.

**ὥρισται is, according to LSJ, a contraction of ὁ ἄριστος (o aristos) from which we get aristocracy. So, it literally means "best, finest; best in its kind, and so in all sorts of relations, serving as Sup. of ἀγαθός (agathon "good"). I'm wondering if the "limited" translation is from the idea of oligos as in oligarchy as in rule by a few or limited number. If I've misunderstood ὥρισται I am more than open to correction!

PS. There is ὁριστός from ὁρίζω (horízō, “separate, delimit”) but ὥρισται with its sense connected to "the good" seems to me to make sense here.

ἄριστος - Wiktionary

I would be curious to get Eikadistes 's take.

PS: I found it interesting that the predicates in the first phrase are ὥρισται ooristai and εὐπόριστός euporistos. The first appears to be a feminine plural and the second appears to be masculine? So, do they apply to ploutos (it would appear given the ending of the euporistos) or to "nature" physeos? This is where my Greek knowledge begins to break down

Per LSJ:

εὐπόρ-ιστος , ον, (πορίζω)

A.easy to procure or secure, Id.Ep.3p.63U., Sent.21, Fr.469, Dsc.Eup. Praef.: Sup., ἀμπεχόνη, οἰκία, Ph.2.424, cf. Phld.D.1.15; feasible, Cic.Att.7.1.7; εὐπόριστα (sc. φάρμακα), τά, common, family medicines: title of work by Dsc., Orib.Eup.Praef. (called περὶ ἁπλῶν φαρμάκων in codd. of Dsc.Eup.); also, ordinary food, opp. game out of season, Plu.Luc.40, Pomp.2. II. Act., providing one's subsistence with ease, Ptol.Tetr.155.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

VS08. The wealth required by Nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth required by vain ideals extends to infinity

This is similar to PD15.

Neither St. Andre or O'Connor include it in their translations -- O'Connor says in footnote that is it the same as PD15.

Nor Bailey. He simply references PD15:

XV. The wealth demanded by Nature is both limited and easily procured; that demanded by idle imaginings stretches on to infinity. (Bailey)

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος καὶ ὥρισται καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν (kenōn doxōn "empty beliefs/ principles/ doctrines") εἰς ἄπειρον (apeiron - one of the words Epicurus used to describe the extent of the universe) ἐκπίπτει.

Another excerpt of interest from Epicurus, On Nature, book 14, column 24 (using Les Epicuriens, Google Translate on the French, and the papyrus transcription):

...we must count ourselves fortunate in this, too - that all who are engaged in such trivialities may have some sort of remedy by which it is possible, simply to attain at times calmness (κα̣τα̣στάσεις katastaseis) in the contemplation of nature, to get rid of their inborn ([σ]υμφύτου; French: connaturel) [trouble; ταραχ]ῆς], which even later [missing 1 column].

[ἀ-]

γ̣απητ[ὸν] καὶ τοῦτ[ο], τὸ

δὴ πάντα τὸν συνε̣[χό]με-

νον̣ [ταῖς] τοιαύταις περι-

εργ[ε]ίαις ἔχειν οἱονὶ φάρ-

μακ̣ον δι' οὗ κα̣τα̣στάσεις

ἁ̣πλ[ᾶς ἔστι]ν ἐν τῆι περὶ φύ-

σε[ως θεωρί]αι ἀπαλλαγή-

σε[σθαι τῆς σ]υμφύτου ἑαυ-

τα̣[ῖς ταραχ]ῆς ἣ καὶ ὕσ̣τε-

10ρον̣ [ ̣ ̣] ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ η̣πο ̣ ̣ σιτ ̣ ̣

γε [ ̣ ̣] ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ὥστε ̣ ̣ ̣ υ̣ ̣

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣] ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ τοιού̣[τοι]ς ̣ ̣

[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣] ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ον̣ [ ̣ ̣ ̣] ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣

[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

Compare to Fragment 116. I summon you to sustained enjoyment and not to empty and trifling virtues, which destroy your confidence in the fruits of what you have.

ἐγὼ δʼ ἐφʼ ἡδονὰς συνεχεῖς παρακαλῶ καὶ οὐκ ἐπʼ ἀρετὰς κενὰς καὶ ματαίας καὶ ταραχώδεις ἐχούσας τῶν καρπῶν ἐλπίδας.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Joshua

in the cases of schadenfreude, déjà vu, or a cappella

Who gets to decide what these words actually mean? Who do we all accept is the authority?

This question is similar to the whole "Eskimos have a hundred words for snow" myth. The Inuit may have individual words for different types of snow, but English can still convey the meaning. It just takes more words. The may be one word in Inuktitut for it, but English can still say "packed snow that can be used to track an animal etc."

As to "who gets to decide", the authority at the present is the LSJ for ancient Greek that's available on Perseus.

The Thesaurus Linguae Latinae (TLL) is the most authoritative dictionary of ancient Latin. It is the only lexicon to cover all surviving Latin texts from the earliest times down to AD 600. Another is the Lewis and Short.

These dictionaries take into account scholarship, context, historical linguistics, and other factors to convey the range of meaning inherent in the words.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Easy is due to the eu- prefix on the verbs in lines 3 & 4 of the Tetrapharmakos

Don are you aware of any other reference stating "easy" other than the tetrapharmokos ?

Line 3: euktēton εὔκτητον

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐκρα_τό-μελι , εὔκτητος

Line 4: euekkarterēton εὐεκκαρτέρητον

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐδρομ-ία , εὐεκ-καρτέρητος

Compare euekkritos

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐδρομ-ία , εὐέκ-κρι^τος

Quote from Cassius

Also is this Voula Tsouna? Do you have the more specific cite?

It's a mashup of Tsouna, Les Epicuriens, and the text from the actual papyrus at papyri.info. No individual cite, just the Philodemus.

Quote from Cassius

a particular text does demand the "EASY"

Easy is due to the eu- prefix on the verbs in lines 3 & 4 of the Tetrapharmakos.

Take a look at the LSJ definitions for a number of words in ancient Greek that begin eu-. Many have the connotation of easy, easily, without effort, honestly, etc.

I'm putting this here primarily as an interesting tidbit but also partly in reference to numbers 7 & 8 on my initial list.

From Philodemus, On Choices and Avoidances, columns 4 and 5:

[4] [Epicurus teaches us that good is easy for us to procure] and that evil is [not] only limited precisely because it is useless to have defined the good (τἀγαθόν), if it is difficult, if not impossible, for us to attain, nor to have fixed limits to evil, if it is difficult to bear because of its long duration. This knowledge has the effect of prohibiting both the pursuit of any [good] which is not by nature capable of eliminating pain - such are, most of the time, the [goods] which have motivated a search eager in humans -, and let none be discarded which does not prevent having pleasure -- that is how one must [conceive] most of [those which are acquired] gradually. And, in reverse, for [missing approximately 20 lines]

[5] [missing 3 lines] After that, it is also necessary to take into account the differences that present the desires (ἐπιθυμ̣[ιῶ]ν̣) relating to the pleasures and to what produces them, since precisely the lack of discernment on this subject gives rise to serious errors concerning the choices and the rejections. It is indeed because they regard as what is most necessary the goods which are most external to them, I mean a sovereign power, a dazzling fame, an exceptional wealth and sources of pleasure of this sort and other similar ones that they are in charge of the most painful evils; and that, conversely, [they remain deaf to their most necessary appetites] (ἀναγκαιοτάτων), because they take them for what is most exterior to them [missing about 20 lines].

Notes:

The "external" in the middle of column 5 is: External; alien; ξενοτάτων

II. c. gen. rei, strange to a thing, unacquainted with, ignorant of it; III. strange, unusual.

A related word appears in Epicurus fragment 266:

From the perspective of the infinite time that has passed, nothing novel occurs in the universe.

οὐδὲν ξένον ἐν τῷ παντv ἀποτελεῖται παρὰ τὸν ἤδη γεγενημένον χρόνον ἄπειρον.

The idea of ξένος is the strange, foreign, something or someone from "outside". There's a whole cultural thing about xenia but I don't think that's relevant in the current context.

Quote from Godfrey

Of course this is no knock on the musk ox. It may even make it more Epicurean! I'm just questioning this particular analogy

Hey! Anything to make them musk ox more Epicurean

So, we can't judge what brings the musk ox pleasure!

I'm finding it difficult to swipe between Kalosyni 's responses and my first post, so for easier reference, here are the two closer to each other.

Quote from Don with Kalosyni's responses

1. Epicurus advocates strengthening a quiet, calm, anxiety-free mind.
   1. Not completely correct -- "strengthening" implies you do all sorts of things. But we only see that this is some kind of result that happens to correspond to removing fear of death and the gods (an after affect).
2. Equanimity/tranquility/ataraxia is available at all times, even under duress and trying circumstances.
   1. Not correct - impossible to do and where is this in Epicurean philosophy?
3. IF we can cultivate ataraxia, we have a much better chance of making a good choice to remove, move around, or avoid the "obstacle to pleasure" than we would if we get anxious, feel "psychological unrest" or get agitated or fearful.
   1. Not correct - we cultivate prudence so that we don't choose pleasures with cause much worse pains
4. Tranquility / ataraxia are not the "goal of life" but Epicurus stresses over and over the importance of freedom from disturbance in the mind and "pain in the body" (I have a problem with this kind of translation of aponia, but we'll leave that for another time.) (Still not that time btw )
   1. Not completely correct - "Epicurus stresses over and over" -- this is an exaggeration, perhaps we should count when and where this is stated in the texts (how many times?)
5. PLEASURE is the goal, and tranquility is pleasure, freedom from anxiety is pleasure, but it is pleasure that is always available to us which is why Epicurus places such importance on it - NOT exclusionary importance as the ONLY pleasure we should pursue but of significant and paramount importance to give us the possibility of the best pleasurable life possible in addition to all the other pleasures we can experience.
   1. Correct.
6. My metaphor of what is meant by ataraxia / tranquility / calm is the picture of a musk ox, facing into the howling winter wind, legs braces, ice forming on its hair and face, knowing the disturbance will eventually pass ("Pain is short...") and it can then go on and paw the snow for luscious plants to eat. (Note: just a metaphor btw. Not saying musk oxen are Epicureans.)
   1. Don't agree -- sounds Stoic - if that ox was smart he would find some bushes and other oxes to hunker down with instead of standing out in the wind -- luckily we aren't oxes.
   2. Don NOTE: See post 11 above for more context on this.
7. My reading of katastematic pleasures, including ataraxia, are those that arise from within ourselves and that these are the only pleasures in life that we can be confident of at all times.
   1. Too vague -- if you are talking about being confident in your bodily health, and enjoying feeling healthy in the body, then I will agree
8. The kinetic pleasures arise from our interaction with external stimuli and phenomena.
   1. What about sitting out in the sunshine and the feeling that comes with enjoying that? (And this strengthens the feeling of "health in the body")
9. Metrodorus stresses the importance of both kinds of pleasures, but he also wrote a book entitled "On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects."
   1. In my opinion what Metrodorus wrote doesn't take into consideration how the environment that you live in (which contains physical objects) affects your physical and mental well being. We are animals which require certain basic conditions for our physical and mental well being.
10. Cassius raises the point that the following is a new assertion to him and he is not "aware of textual citations to support it": my reading of katastematic pleasures, including ataraxia, are those that arise from within ourselves and that these are the only pleasures in life that we can be confident of at all times.
    1. This seems not completely correct -- I am confident that my next meal with bring pleasure -- is that something which arises only in myself?
11. Cassius countered with citing Diogenes Laertius quote about the wise man will "cry out and lament" when on the rack.
    I countered his quotation with the quote just prior to that with "even if the wise man be put on the rack, he is happy (eudaimonia)."
    1. I don't agree with this "happy on the rack" -- I personally think this "happiness in all circumstances" doesn't make sense to me.

So, that'll be a little easier to refer to. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Kalosyni's points at this point, but I do think they move the conversation forward. Thanks!

Quote from Cassius

Ok so yes there is a list of Metrodorus' works in DL and that's not in it, right? Is It clear that Clement is talking about the same Metrodorus?

As I remember, DL doesn't list all of Epicurus's titles either. There are titles mentioned elsewhere that aren't in his list.

Wow! Y'all have been busy. I'll respond to your various points, but I had to provide some context for my musk ox analogy.

The musk ox (umingmak "the bearded one" in the language of the Inuit) is easily my favorite animal, followed closely by the tardigrade (yes, big nerd here).

In the habitat in which the musk ox lives - the northern Arctic tundra - there are no trees, no bushes, nothing to hide behind. In fact, they typically prefer windswept land in winter where the wind keeps the snow swept away. They'll either stand in the wind or lay down in a gale to reduce their exposure. They appear unfazed by the conditions, and my metaphor was that they know the storm will pass, "the pain will be brief."

It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but, hey, I got to talk about musk oxen

The description of kinetic and katastematic from The Faith of Epicurus by Benjamin Farrington (1967) is spot on from my perspective:

Quote from Farrington, p. 132

" 'pleasure' may be eitherr kinetic (i.e., produced by a stimulus from without) or katastematic (i.e., a state of the organism created by itself without external stimulus)."

I posted a screenshot of this page on a prior thread.