Posts by Don

First thoughts, random:

Being frugal does NOT mean ascetic or stingy or anything negative.

It takes practice to be a "frugal hedonist".

It means being aware of what you're actually spending YOUR time and money on.

Are you actually taking pleasure in what you spend time and money on.

Don't get caught up with instant gratification: instead of "pulling the lever for cheese" (classic mouse experiment metaphor), try "walking to cheese mountain, befriend the cheese miners, etc."

Relish: REALLY experience your activities. Take time to actually taste that cup of coffee. Take pleasure in the details of your life.

My note: I think frugal hedonist is a good description of Epicurus's lifestyle, much better than the ascetic he's made out to be.

Looking forward to reading more.

The Art of Frugal Hedonism: A Guide to Spending Less While Enjoying Everything More

The Art of Frugal Hedonism is your leisurely guide to a life that both makes sense, while indulging the senses; how to live lightly but luxuriantly.

www.frugalhedonism.com

I'm working my way through this book, and it specifically mentions Epicurus. Opening this thread for thoughts on this one.

A counterintuitive method to ensure 2023 is your most fun year ever.

michaelrucker.com

The Fun Habit

Discover the latest compelling scientific evidence for the potent and revitalizing value of fun and how to make having fun a habitual and authentic...

www.simonandschuster.com

Just started listening to the audiobook and it strikes me as eminently Epicurean!!

Starting this thread to record thoughts of mine or others as my listening continues...

The JSTOR paper doesn't have much else. It does say that if Burley was using Diogenes Laertius that it would have to be a Latin translation since he didn't read Greek. Burleys sources were primarily medieval not ancient. The chief source was the Speculum Maius by the friar Vincent of Beauvais. And also the Compendiloquium by John of Wales.

Burleys work included poets and philosophers and playwrights from after Diogenes' time. Diogenes also didn't include poets or playwrights in his work.

Two manuscripts erroneously attributed to Laertius were found to be other editions of Burley.

Quote from Cassius

Interesting that Burley says "he said that pleasure is the highest good." Does Diogenes Laertius' commentary state it that way aside from including the letter to Menoeceus? almost sounds like there his quoting Torquatus' formulation.

I think Burley is just responding to the general consensus of Epicurus at the time.

Quote from Kalosyni

I am still back on Diogenes Laertius, Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers,

and found this eyebrow raising qoute in Wikipedia:

Quote

He is criticized primarily for being overly concerned with superficial details of the philosophers' lives and lacking the intellectual capacity to explore their actual philosophical works with any penetration. However, according to statements of the 14th-century monk Walter Burley in his De vita et moribus philosophorum, the text of Diogenes seems to have been much fuller than that which we now possess.

Do we know what Burley said specifically?

Quote from Cassius

Also as to the possibility that PDO1 is intended to refer to more than just the Epicurean gods even though the term "immortal" is used, there is this:

VS78. The noble soul occupies itself with wisdom and friendship; of these, the one is a mortal good, the other immortal.

Going back to this ...

ὁ γενναῖος περὶ σοφίαν καὶ φιλίαν μάλιστα γίγνεται, ὧν τὸ μέν ἐστι θνητὸν ἀγαθόν, τὸ δὲ ἀθάνατον.

There are two different words used that are translated "immortal" in PD1 and VS78.

PD1 uses άφθαρτος aphthartos which is more like uncorrupted, undecaying, which can be translated as immortal or eternal but places more emphasis on an unchanging nature.

VS78 uses θνητός thnētos for the "mortal" and αθάνατος athanatos "not mortal; not dying" but the former can mean literally "(of things) befitting mortals." ἀθάνατον is "immortal" but better thought of as undying, everlasting, perpetual. So, for me, the emphasis is on the persistence in time in VS78. The wisdom we acquire in our lives dies with us. But friendship lasts in our memories even after the friend dies, as does the memory of ourselves in our friends.

DigiVatLib

Vatican Sayings on folio numbers 401v-404v (401v & 402r shown below, VS1 / PD1 is at the bottom of the left page: Το μακαριον και αφθ... etc.)

And here is a link to a previous post of mine that had links to the Principal Doctrines as given in DL, Book 10. You'll see the continuous text as opposed to the red letter initial letters of the Vatican Sayings above:

Post

RE: Presenting the Principal Doctrines in Narrative Form

Okay, as promised, here are the best digitized manuscripts I can find online of Diogenes Laertius with citations and images of where the Principal Doctrines start. I have not begun to go through the various texts to see where gaps appear to be, but the Oxford Arundel MS531 seems to be the most promising for that exercise; however, the others definitely need to be examined.

Oh, and this isn't intended to be just for people who read Greek. I would be curious for anyone to take a look at the…

Don

August 15, 2022 at 11:00 PM

Quote from Cassius

Do we also think that the Vatican sayings numberings were added later?

They weren't numbered, but they're definitely an anthology.

I think the Principal Doctrines reads much more coherently if you don't split it into 40 discrete pieces.

I also want to emphasize that the "40" is superimposed on the text. There is no indication in the manuscripts that they were numbered in any way. There are breaks or spaces in the text, but not in any way indicating each of these "40." The are paragraphs or sections, but not 40 individual doctrines.

Quote from Kalosyni

Going back to the original question: What are the possible reasons why the list of 40 Principal Doctrines does not feature a statement explicitly stating pleasure to be the goal of life?

It is possible that there were more Doctrines than just 40? So that what we have from Diogenes Laetrius is incomplete?

It looks to me that Diogenes Laertius lists two goals -- and this excerpt shows a conflict. On one hand there is "health of the body and tranquility of the mind" but further down "pleasure is the alpha and omega".

Letter from Menoeceus (R.D Hicks):

Quote

We must also reflect that of desires some are
natural, others are groundless ; and that of the natural some are
necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the
necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if
the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live.
[128]
He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will
direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body
and tranquillity of mind, seeing that this is the sum and end of a
blessed life. For the end of all our actions is to be free from pain
and fear, and, when once we have attained all this, the tempest of the soul is laid ; seeing that the living creature has no need to go in search of something that is lacking,
nor to look for anything else by which the good of the soul and of
the body will be fulfilled. When we are pained because of the
absence of pleasure, then, and then only, do we feel the need of
pleasure. Wherefore we call pleasure the alpha and omega of a
blessed life.
[129]
Pleasure is our first and kindred good. It is the
starting-point of every choice and of every aversion, and to it we
come back, inasmuch as we make feeling the rule by which to judge of
every good thing. And since pleasure is our first and native good,
for that reason we do not choose every pleasure whatsoever, but
ofttimes pass over many pleasures when a greater annoyance ensues
from them.

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For what it's worth, here are my verses 128-9 from that section of the letter to Menoikeus:

Quote

[128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind (<τῆς ψυχῆς> ἀταραξίαν ataraxia), that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life. For the sake of this, we do everything in order to neither be in bodily or mental pain nor to be in fear or dread; and so, when once this has come into being around us, it sets free all of the calamity, distress, and suffering of the mind, seeing that the living being has no need to go in search of something that is lacking for the good of our mental and physical existence. For it is then that we need pleasure, if we were to be in pain from the pleasure not being present; but if we were to not be in pain, we no longer desire or beg for pleasure. And this is why we say pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment of the blessed life. [129] Because we perceived pleasure as a fundamental good and common to our nature, and so, as a result of this, we begin every choice and rejection against this, judging every good thing by the standard of how that pleasure affects us or how we react to considering experiencing that pleasure. And because pleasure is the fundamental and inborn good, this is why not every pleasure is seized and we pass by many pleasures when greater unpleasant things were to result for us as a result: and we think many pains better than pleasures whenever greater pleasure were to follow for a longer time by patiently abiding the pain.

Quote from Cassius

So there are numerous ways of coming at this, but the bottom line is I see no reason not to interpret PD01 as applicable to all life everywhere

My reservation on that would be the latter part of PD01 where neither anger not favor/gratitude affects the one who is blessed and incorruptible. Epicurus is clear that gratitude is important for humans to live a pleasurable life.

Quote from Cassius

And from the letter to Menoeceus passage translated as Please is the alpha and Omega of the blessed life...". Same word?

τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν. Yep. It's used there. "pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment of the blessed life." But there's the blessed life open to mortals which has pleasure and pain and the blessed life of the gods with no pain.

Quote from Cassius

And if so that would mean that each of the descriptors if the beings referenced in PD01,

Is immortal/incorruptible used to refer to humans? Or to "goods" like friendship? That's a difference that seems significant to me.

Quote from Cassius

So what about the word translated as "blessed?". Does it have connotations so strong that it cannot be applied to humans? If "immortal" can be applied to human activities, then can "blessed" be less flexible?

Τὸ μακάριον is used in connection with humans, too, one example being PD27

PD1 - blessed, fortunate, wealthy, “well-off”. There appears to me no certain etymology of [makar] or the longer form [makarios/on].It appears to have something to do with being wealthy (both literally and figuratively?).

See also https://books.google.com/books?id=sPCww…ymology&f=false

Notes on MAKARIOS - Blessed

MENO* - Greek Thoughts- Language Studies - StudyLight.org

Also

PD27 Ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα, πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις.

DB - That which wisdom provides with regard to the complete/fulfilled blissful life, by far the best is the gaining of friendship.

Quote from Cassius

Further and rephrased: I wonder if that passage about competing with the gods for happiness indicates that the changing level available to non-gods, when it is at its highest level, can be equal the unchanging level of the gods, with the only difference being the limitation in time available to the non-gods?

VS 33. The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness. σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν [hope or expect to have] κἂν <διὶ [dative of Zeus]> ὑπὲρ εὐδαιμονίας μαχέσαιτο. [contend/compete]

So, it does say contend or compete. It doesn't say equal.

The word translated "highest" is the superlative of άκρος akros:

• At the edge, extreme, beginning, end: outermost (especially of the top)
• Being the most of any characteristic: best, oldest, first

I get the idea that the sense of well-being of the gods is unchanging and constant and so at the "most extreme edge" of the spectrum of how eudaimonia is experienced. Non-gods experience the addition and subtraction (subtraction of pleasures = pain??) in their lives.

Quote from Cassius

Don, as our resident Greek expert, what is your assessment of the possibility that PD01 is not a reference to the gods alone, but is intended to be a reference to the best life for humans as well as gods, and thus serves as a reference to pleasure (the opposite of pain as stated in PDO3) being the goal?

It's possible... Maybe. But I'd also reference DL 10.121:

121] Two sorts of happiness (eudaimonia) can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

121] Τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν διχῆ νοεῖσθαι, τήν τε ἀκροτάτην, οἵα ἐστὶ περὶ τὸν θεόν, ἐπίτασιν οὐκ ἔχουσαν: καὶ τὴν <κατὰ τὴν> προσθήκην καὶ ἀφαίρεσιν ἡδονῶν.

Quote from Kalosyni

"tranquility" within Epicureanism is a state of mind which is free from worry.

Agreed.

Quote from Kalosyni

It is not a state of the body (sitting in stillness). And it is not a state of mind which comes from doing something like Buddhist or Hindu meditations.

Agreed. I would still say that the faculty, state, condition can be strengthened (so to speak) to serve as the foundation for living a pleasurable life.

Quote from Kalosyni

it comes from studying nature and reasoning out issues such as the nature of the natural world, the nature of god(s), the nature of death, using proper choices and avoidances, being confident in future health and security, being confident in support from friends and good neighbors, and self-sufficency.

Agreed And I would say the strengthening of the confidence of ataraxia comes from the continuing study (meditation) of nature etc

Quote from Kalosyni

So that when we do talk about "tranquility" within Epicureanism, it is a result caused by the mind's ability to impliment and reason through all the things I listed in the above paragraph.

Agreed. But tranquility and calm mean tranquility and calm. The metaphor I'd use for it (which seems to be a connotation of the Greek) is like sailing on smooth, tranquil water.

Quote from Kalosyni

We would never say: let's concentrate hard to create some tranquility (that would be putting the cart before the horse) but instead we would simply focus on doing what needs to be done to remove worries from the mind (which may entail making some choices and taking action).

Agreed, I think. There is concentration involved and contemplation and theorizing and putting that contemplation into action. I still translate the wise one's characteristic as "taking more pleasure in contemplation."

Quote from Don

As literal as possible:

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος "The wealth of nature..."

καὶ ὥρισται* καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, "is the best and easily procured...

ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν (kenōn doxōn "empty beliefs/principles/doctrines") εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει. "But that of empty opinions runs onto infinity."

*πλοῦτος ploutos. Ex., plutocracy. Wealth, riches.

**ὥρισται is, according to LSJ, a contraction of ὁ ἄριστος (o aristos) from which we get aristocracy. So, it literally means "best, finest; best in its kind, and so in all sorts of relations, serving as Sup. of ἀγαθός (agathon "good"). I'm wondering if the "limited" translation is from the idea of oligos as in oligarchy as in rule by a few or limited number. If I've misunderstood ὥρισται I am more than open to correction!

PS. There is ὁριστός from ὁρίζω (horízō, “separate, delimit”) but ὥρισται with its sense connected to "the good" seems to me to make sense here.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84…2#Ancient_Greek

I would be curious to get Eikadistes 's take.

PS: I found it interesting that the predicates in the first phrase are ὥρισται ooristai and εὐπόριστός euporistos. The first appears to be a feminine plural and the second appears to be masculine? So, do they apply to ploutos (it would appear given the ending of the euporistos) or to "nature" physeos? This is where my Greek knowledge begins to break down

Per LSJ:

εὐπόρ-ιστος , ον, (πορίζω)

A.easy to procure or secure, Id.Ep.3p.63U., Sent.21, Fr.469, Dsc.Eup. Praef.: Sup., ἀμπεχόνη, οἰκία, Ph.2.424, cf. Phld.D.1.15; feasible, Cic.Att.7.1.7; εὐπόριστα (sc. φάρμακα), τά, common, family medicines: title of work by Dsc., Orib.Eup.Praef. (called περὶ ἁπλῶν φαρμάκων in codd. of Dsc.Eup.); also, ordinary food, opp. game out of season, Plu.Luc.40, Pomp.2. II. Act., providing one's subsistence with ease, Ptol.Tetr.155.

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I just realized there's this epitaph of Epicurus from Atheneaus quoted by Diogenes Laertius:

And here is the epigram20 in which Athenaeus eulogizes him :

[12] Ye toil, O men, for paltry things and incessantly begin strife and war for gain ;

but nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range.

This message Neocles' wise son heard from the Muses or from the sacred tripod at Delphi.21

[12] ἄνθρωποι, μοχθεῖτε τὰ χείρονα, καὶ διὰ κέρδος ἄπληστοι νεικέων ἄρχετε καὶ πολέμων:

τᾶς φύσιος δ᾽ ὁ πλοῦτος ὅρον τινὰ βαιὸν ἐπίσχει, αἱ δὲ κεναὶ κρίσιες τὰν ἀπέραντον ὁδόν.

τοῦτο Νεοκλῆος πινυτὸν τέκος ἢ παρὰ Μουσέων ἔκλυεν ἢ Πυθοῦς ἐξ ἱερῶν τριπόδων.

20 Anthology of Planudes. iv. 43.

This text mentions "nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range" but the same wording is not used as in the PD itself. However, in light of this, I can see how the PD is translated with "limited". That said, I'm not 100% convinced that "the best of its kind" can't be correct. I'm less sure than I was, but not entirely dissuaded.