Posts by Don

Quote from Kalosyni

instead of anxiety we could use the word "worry"?

I'm coming around to the word "rumination."

Rumination: Relationships with Physical Health

Rumination is a form of perserverative cognition that focuses on negative content, generally past and present, and results in emotional distress. Initial…

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Although "worry" could work for future directed anxiety.

Quote from Kalosyni

should everyone try to live a worry-free life? Is it even possible? Would a worry-free life be worth living?

Yes to all, in my opinion. It comes down to whether one can take action or not. It seems similar to the sentiment encapsulated in that Serenity Prayer. Basically, if something can be done about a situation, do it. If nothing can be done, don't worry about it. Make prudent decisions about both.

Quote from Kalosyni

Should questions like these remain a personal exploration, so there is no right or wrong or absolute answer that applies to everyone or to every time and place? Or is this a help line of discussion amongst friends?

It seems to me that Epicurus was fairly clear and firm that ataraxia was a necessary component of a pleasurable life. It's not morally right or wrong, it's a way of experiencing our lives, clear-eyed, worry-free, and taking prudent action in all situations that will lead to the most pleasurable life possible for ourselves.

PS: And I speak as a "recovering ruminator" myself!

I read that New York Times article and what kept running through my head was...

Quote from Inigo Montoya

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It seems to me they're using "anxiety" to mean several different things because the word attracts attention. "Anxiety is good" is better than a nuanced approach to the research and findings. I certainly wouldn't use "anxiety" to describe the several different emotions they're discussing.

I want to say explicitly that, from my perspective, Emily (Dr. Austin preferred Emily on our podcast conversation, so I feel I can use her first name ) did an *exceptional* job of placing tranquility and freedom from anxiety in context while maintaining its importance in Epicurean philosophy. I completely agree with her characterization. And just to make sure I understood her characterization, my take is that Epicurus taught that ataraxia was vitally important for the both the pleasure that a calm, anxiety-free mind brings itself BUT ALSO that it allows the enjoyment of other pleasures - both necessary and extravagant - in our lives more fully. With tranquil minds, we are more fully present to the everyday pleasures we experience, like a wholesome lunch of warm fresh bread and cool water... Just as an example

Quote from The Guardian

Freedom from anxiety is good, all other things being equal, but many would say that a willingness to do without tranquility is what has enabled them to push themselves and live fuller lives.

(clears throat...)

Quote from Epicurus

For we recognize it as the primary and innate good, we honor it in everything we accept or reject, and we achieve it if we judge every good thing by the standard of how that thing affects us. And because this is the primary and inborn good, we do not choose every pleasure. Instead, we pass up many pleasures when we will gain more of what we need from doing so. And we consider many pains to be better than pleasures, if we experience a greater pleasure for a long time from having endured those pains. So every pleasure is a good thing because its nature is favorable to us, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen — just as every pain is a bad thing, yet not every pain is always to be shunned. It is proper to make all these decisions through measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages, for sometimes we treat a good thing as bad and a bad thing as good.

Just sayin', Guardian. Epicurus has you covered.

A generally positive review in The Guardian is no small feat!! Congratulations to Dr. Austin!

I can easily imagine the Stoics huffing and puffing and "Oh, they just don't understand Stoicism!!" Methinks we understand y'all better than you think.

Quote from Cassius

it becomes easier to see as if for the first time how much of Epicurus is a direct rejection of Platonic idealism

It's like - oh, I don't know - like coming out of a cave and seeing the light for the first time

I found it so great seeing Sagan talk the talk against Plato while being in a cave! Well played, Carl. Well played.

Oh, man! That video takes me back. I was a huge fan of Sagan in high school. I even remembering wearing a turtleneck or two in his honor Weren't we talking about taking on distinctive clothing of one's sect in another thread?

Sagan definitely doesn't pull any punches on Plato! Bravo! It lays out the "case against" Plato and his "ideas are better than the natural world" fallacy.

I often forget that Samos was part of Ionia, and that Aristarchus (c. 310 – c. 230 BCE) was actually born on Samos after Epicurus (341–270 BC) around the time Epicurus was teaching at Mytilene. Aristarchus was a student of Strato of Lampsacus, who was the third head of the Peripatetic School in Greece. And Lampsacus is, of course, familiar to Epicureans! Per Wikipedia, Strato might have known Epicurus during his period of teaching in Lampsacus between 310 and 306 BCE. The ideas of natural science and observation of nature were swirling all around Ionia before and during Epicurus's time there during his upbringing and early teaching career.

Quote from Joshua

Don, you're a wizard! Thank you very much for looking for that, I'll add it to my source collection.

I was happy to do it... even though it drove me mad trying to dig it up I did this at work today so the above is a photo from my phone of my work computer screen!

Here is the link to Internet Archive:

Bullettino dell'Instituto di corrispondenza archeologica = Bulletin de l'Institut de correspondance archéologique : Instituto di corrispondenza archeologica : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The years 1854-55 were not published separately, but were included in the first two of the three volumes in-folio entitled: Monumenti, annali e bullettini...

archive.org

Found it!!!

Bull. D. Inst. is the Bullettino dell'Instituto di correspondenza archeologica from 1831

Page 112, no. 78 on a list...

So, not any additional information but at least we know what that @#$& cryptic citation was referring to!

Quote from Cassius

Also, re-reading that footnote, how are you people interpreting the "inscribed LVCR in the lettering of his own time"?

"His" meaning Lucretius, or "his" meaning Dr. Nott?

Lucretius's, I'd say.

Downloaded Daff Moon. Very cool! I especially like - from an Epicurean perspective - that it gives the age of the moon at the bottom. Now, all I have to do is check when it turns over to 20 days and tahdah! It's the eikas... aka protera dekatē!

Downloaded Daff Moon. Very cool! I especially like - from an Epicurean perspective - that it gives the age of the moon at the bottom. Now, all I have to do is check when it turns over to 20 days and tahdah! It's the eikas... aka protera dekatē!

Quote from Cassius

An article I clipped somewhere -- not in English, but good pictures and possibly can be read through translators:

https://www.academia.edu/12743915/Immag…afia_lucreziana

I was slightly surprised that they date that engraved gem to the 1st century BCE. I hadn't realized that was contemporary to him. My only question would be: do we *know* it's Lucretius the poet and not another 1st c. BCE member of the gens Lucretia:

Lucretia gens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Cassius

I wish I could downvote Leonard

LOL! I hear you. His language is stilted and Victorian at best.

Quote from Cassius

Don, especially given your interest in the translation details -- am I missing something here in Leonard vs the others? And Leonard is the one Perseus uses too, if I recall correctly.

Correct. Perseus uses Leonard:

Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 1

Should you be looking a little further down for that Latin to correspond?

Fear holds dominion over mortality

Only because, seeing in land and sky

So much the cause whereof no wise they know,

Men think Divinities are working there.

Meantime, when once we know from nothing still

Nothing can be create, we shall divine

More clearly what we seek: those elements

From which alone all things created are,

And how accomplished by no tool of Gods.

Quote from Kalosyni

Also starting in passage 102, it says "we do not know the nature of the soul" implying skeptism. The "we" is totally incorrect because it is talking about the misleading nature of others. And I see in other translations it uses "they".

I agree with Kalosyni that the difference between "we" and "they" is significant!

ignoratur enim quae sit natura animai, (1.112)

ignoratur is verb 3rd sg pres ind pass, i.e., 3rd person singular would be "he" (or "they" if used in the singular sense) not "we" (1st person plural).

If Humphries is using "we"... that's an issue.

I'm partial to Stallings primarily since that's the first translation I read front to back

For anyone interested, I just saw this lunar calendar for 2023 available online.

2023 EarthSky Lunar Calendar

A unique and beautiful poster-sized calendar. Keep up with all phases of the moon every night of the year! Check out our article! How to use EarthSky’s lunar…

earthskystore.org

I found it fascinating to see the phases all in one grid.

PS. There's also a moon phase calendar at this site:

Moon Phases 2023 – Lunar Calendar

www.timeanddate.com

Quote from Charles

It's when we get into objects such as clothing and votive candles when it starts to become cult-like.

I'm assuming when you say "clothing" you're talking about distinctive apparel like a Catholic clerical collar, Japanese robes for Zen practitioners, and the distinctive attire of Hare Krishna proselytizers or even Mormon (excuse me, LDS) missionaries. If that's the case, I agree. There's no need for Epicureans to adopt a distinctive style or piece of clothing.

That said, if a group of Epicureans wants to host a special event that encourages attendees to wear an ancient Greek or Roman costume, I see no harm in that as long as it's for the pleasure of attendees and seen as a fun part of the evening. It's a form of re-enactment. There are re-enactors of all stripes, from those recreating Roman soldiers to US Civil War and Revolutionary-era regiments to members of the Society for Creative Anachronism.

The issue appears to me to lie in the adoption of a distinctive piece of clothing that announces to the world that "Hey, I'm a member of X!! Look at me!! I am SO special!!" Epicureans, it seems to me, did live unobtrusively most of the time but were always available if someone was curious about the school. The wearing of a ring or a piece of jewelry is a way to remind **oneself** to "act as if Epicurus were watching." It's not meant to be an advertisement to the world that "I'm acting as if Epicurus were watching! Look at me!" Rings and jewelry and cups in one's own home are private reminders. Unless someone comes up and closely examines that ring or is invited to one's home, they're not going to know the items contain a portrait of Epicurus. That's where the wearing of a t-shirt with Epicurus on it might be questionable?

As for votive candles, if it's done in the spirit of honoring the person of Epicurus and/or the philosophy, I see no problem if it brings pleasure to the person setting out the portrait and candles. If it reminds someone to "do everything as if Epicurus were watching" Sic fac omnia tamquam spectet. Just like a ring or piece of jewelry, that seems fine. We have pictures in our homes of relatives and others that we hold dear. Having a picture with a candle of someone who provides a foundation for one's way of living doesn't seem so far out of bounds to me.

And to be clear: EPICURUS IS NOT WATCHING! He's dead. He's gone. His atoms have dispersed. It's his philosophy by which we've chosen to live our lives. It's the philosophy that he taught that provides guidance. A feeling of awe or respect for the founder should not be confused with blind adherence to some guru.

In thinking further along these lines, Epicurus and his philosophy are compared to light throughout Lucretius. For example:

O thou who first uplifted in such dark

So clear a torch aloft, who first shed light

Upon the profitable ends of man,

O thee I follow, glory of the Greeks,

And set my footsteps squarely planted now

Even in the impress and the marks of thine

...

For if must needs be named for him the name

Demanded by the now known majesty

Of these high matters, then a god was he,-

Hear me, illustrious Memmius- a god;

Who first and chief found out that plan of life

Which now is called philosophy, and who

By cunning craft, out of such mighty waves,

Out of such mighty darkness, moored life

In havens so serene, in light so clear.

...

Even Epicurus went, his light of life

Run out, the man in genius who o'er-topped

The human race, extinguishing all others,

As sun, in ether arisen, all the stars.

Wilt thou, then, dally, thou complain to go?

In light of that (pun intended), maybe a votive candle is not such a bad symbol to remind someone of Epicurus and the philosophy. Hmmm

My only hesitation is that the picture has - to me - an almost Jesus vibe with the orientation of the face and the long hair. I didn't notice the pig until cassius pointed it out.

Quote from Onenski

Their idea is that Epicurus was a kind of megalomaniac, because of those statues, rings and protraits; or the celebrations every month; or because of the patternalistic practices

It seems the practices of wearing rings or displaying portrait busts or having cups with Epicurus's picture on them is a physical manifestation of both Seneca's quote "Do all things as if Epicurus were watching" and VS32 Honoring a sage is itself a great good to the one who honors. τοῦ σοφοῦ σεβασμὸς ἀγαθὸν μέγα τῷ σεβομένῳ ἐστί.

σεβασμὸς in modern Greek just means "respect" however, in ancient Greek it was broader: "to be moved by awe, fear, or respect for others or for their opinions; to feel shame; to experience the same feelings in a religious sense." So, this coincides in some ways with the orientation Epicureans should feel toward the gods themselves.

Quote from Kalosyni

For example: if a person said: "Oh how I wish I could go on a flight on Blue Origin, but it costs $1.25 million per passenger so I can't afford to do it." So then one would then reason about how this desire is not necessary for a happy life AND then replace that desire with something easier to get. Or another (more down to earth) example: if someone has very limited finances, but says "Oh it would be so nice to go to drive to a resort town on the ocean, but hotels are so expensive these days and I need to be careful about not spending away my limited savings." -- and then sees that the basic "deeper" human desire is for exploration (or for learning, experiencing, novelty, or relaxation) then finding something else such as exploring things and going to museums in one's own city, or finding a nice park with a river or lake.

Seems to dovetail nicely with:

Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?

Quote from Kalosyni

The internet definition of groundless = "not based on any good reason". And I really would want to know the original Greek word used? Don if you know?

The word usually associated with "groundless, empty, etc. desires" in translation is κενός kenos which is the exact same word Epicurus uses for "void" as in atoms and void. I always see "groundless" as having the connotation "nothing to back it up" and I'd agree with "not based on any good reason".

That said, if you're curious about a specific text, just let me know. I'd be happy to dig into it.