Posts by Don

  • Welcome Quiesco!

    Great first post, Quiesco ! Welcome aboard. Look forward to your contributions to our discussions here!

    btw, evidently even Epicurus admired Pyrrho's conduct:

    Quote from Diogenes Laertius

    In debate he was looked down upon by no one, for he could both discourse at length and also sustain a cross-examination, so that even Nausiphanes when a young man was captivated by him: at all events he used to say that we should follow Pyrrho in disposition but himself in doctrine; and he would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho;

  • Seven Steps With Epicurus - A Slide Presentation

    Quote from Cassius

    so at least five years - maybe more (?)

    Zeno was about 7 years younger than Epicurus.

    The significance of the timeline is that Epicurus was establishing a mature school in his own property six years before Zeno even began teaching in the Stoa.

    Wikipedia:

    Apart from Crates, Zeno studied under the philosophers of the Megarian school, including Stilpo, and the dialecticians Diodorus Cronus, and Philo. He is also said to have studied Platonist philosophy under the direction of Xenocrates, and Polemo.

    Summary: I would characterize Epicureanism and Stoicism as siblings, with the former being the older one and with all the stereotypical sibling rivalry that goes along with that metaphor. The siblings are not close.

  • Seven Steps With Epicurus - A Slide Presentation

    Zeno of Citium ,the founder of the Stoic school of philosophy, which he taught in Athens from about 300 BC. Zeno began teaching in the colonnade in the Agora of Athens known as the Stoa Poikile (Greek Στοὰ Ποικίλη) in 301 BC. His disciples were initially called "Zenonians," but eventually they came to be known as "Stoics," a name previously applied to poets who congregated in the Stoa Poikile.

    Bornc . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

    Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens

    ***

    Epicurus bought his house and garden in Athens in 306 BCE after teaching in Mytilene and Lampsacus for years. His philosophy was already nearing maturity when he came to Athens.

    Born 341 BC Samos, Greece

    Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens, Greece

    ***

    Epicurus's philosophy was not in response to Stoicism. Stoicism wasn't developed enough to be a real rival to his philosophy until later in the history of the Garden. The philosophies became true rivals by the time of Cicero and Philodemus.

    Epicurus's texts shouldn't be read in reference to Stoicism, but the later texts need to be read with Stoics in mind.

    That's my perspective.

    So... Timeline

    Epicurus Born 341 BCE Samos, Greece

    Zeno Born c . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

    Epicurus established Garden 306 BCE

    Zeno *begins* teaching in the Stoa 300 BCE

    Epicurus Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens

    Zeno Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens

  • Episode 168 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 21 - Chapter 10 - The New Freedom 01

    Here's a little more on the "choice and avoidance" commentary from above:

    Περῐ́ (+ genitive) = "about, concerning, because of"

    αιρέσεων = genitive plural form of αἵρεσῐς

    φῠγών = genitive plural form of φῠγή

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φυ^γή

    I find it interesting that αιρέσεων can refer to the taking of a town in battle, and φῠγών flight in battle. There's a metaphorical war going on when you make "choices and 'avoidances'" which is why I'm encouraging a more active English word.

    Look at other uses of φῠγή other than Epicurus in LSJ definition 2. "flight or escape from a thing, avoidance of it":

    - Aeschylus, Suppliant Women 395: Chorus: I am determined *to flee to escape* this marriage that offends my soul,...

    - Sophocles, Antigone 364: Chorus: From Death alone he shall procure no escape, but from baffling diseases he has devised *flights.*

    - Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus 280: Oedipus: But rather consider that they look on the god-fearing man [280] and on the godless, and that never yet has an impious man found *escape.*

    -Euripides, Helen 799: Helen: Here, as a suppliant, I am asking for an *escape* from his bed.

    - also cites Philodemus in P.Herc.1251.11 (peri haireseon kai phygon, i.e., his book of the same title as Epicurus's); opp. δίωξις, Epicur.Sent.25. (see above for comment on δίωξις)

    Here's P.Herc.1251. Column 11 with line numbers:

    [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ντελο[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

    [⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ναιτου[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

    πα[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]α καὶ διὰ τοῦτο δ[ῆ-]

    λον [ἔτ]ι τῶν κ̣[α]κοπραγι[ῶν ἐ-]

    5 [κ]είνω[ν] ἔξω κ[ακ]ίστ[ους] εἶν[αι· ὃ]

    [διὰ] τὰ π[ε]ρὶ τῶ[ν] τεττάρω[ν εἰ-]

    [ρ]η̣μέν̣α λέγεται, το[ῦ] τὴ[ν περί-]

    λη̣ψιν τὴν περὶ τῶν κυρι[ωτ]ά̣-

    [τ]ων καὶ τὴν μνήνην π̣[ολ-]

    10 λὰ συμβάλλεσθαι πρ̣ὸς τὰς

    οὔσας αἱρέσεις καὶ φυγὰς οὐ-

    κ̣ ἴσους τιθεμένου, καθάπερ

    ἐξεδέξαντό τινες ἀγροί-

    κως, τῶι τινας ἀναφέρε̣σ-

    15 θαι τῶν αἱρέσεων καὶ φυ̣γῶν

    ἐπὶ τὰς περὶ τούτων ἀτα-

    ραξίας, ἀλλὰ τῶι κ[α]τ̣ορθοῦσ-

    θαι μὲν αὐτὰς τοῖς τέλεσι

    τοῖς τῆς φύσεως παραμ̣ε-

    20 τ[ρ]ούντων, πολλὰ δὲ [τ]ῶν

    [ ̣ ̣]τ̣α̣[ ̣ ̣]α̣τ̣α̣ς̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]τ̣[ ̣]εν

    PS. The Epicur.Sent.25 refers to PD25...

    PD25. If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to **avoid or pursue** something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

    εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε **φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν** ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

    Seems to me a better translation there would be "flee or pursue" or "escape or pursue" not milquetoast "avoid" since δίωξιν is the opposite of φυγὴν.

  • Seven Steps With Epicurus - A Slide Presentation

    Nice work.

    I'd add mention of Philodemus in Step 2.

    PS. Suggested draft:

    Texts continue to be discovered among the scrolls that were buried by Vesuvius in Herculaneum including works by Epicurus himself and Philodemus, a 1st century BCE Epicurean philosopher, poet, and student of Zeno of Sidon who was the head of the Garden in Athens at the time.

    Revise as needed :)

  • Episode 168 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 21 - Chapter 10 - The New Freedom 01

    During the episode, I expressed my misgivings/frustrations about the stock phrase "choice and avoidance." Avoiding, avoid, and avoidance have always struck me as milquetoast words. It reminds me of stepping around a mud puddle. "I avoided getting my foot wet."

    Epicurus specific words are in the title of the work that laid out his thoughts on these actions: Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν. (Peri haireseon kai phugon). First, let's get the LSJ definitions on the table:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, αἵρεσις

    αἵρεσις (hairesis) does mean "choice" but the connotation for me is much more active than just "choosing": "purpose, course of action or thought" Interestingly enough, it can also refer to the "taking" of a town by an army. It connotes for me an active process, not just a casual "choosing" what one has for dinner. I can live with "choice, choosing" but want to keep that active connotation in mind.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φεύγω

    φεύγω is what I really dislike translated as "avoidance." The first LSJ definition is "flee, take flight." If αἵρεσις is the taking of a town, φεύγω is fleeing or retreating. LSJ states that it is the opposite of διώκω which it "pursue or chase." A form of that word shows up in VS46:

    We cast off common customs just as we would do to wicked men who have been causing great harm for a long time.

    τὰς φαύλας συνηθείας ὥσπερ ἄνδρας πονηροὺς πολὺν χρόνον μέγα βλάψαντες τελείως ἐκδιώκομεν.

    ἐκδιώκομεν in this context means "to chase away, banish." So, φεύγω would refer to those being chased or being banished.

    So, in keeping with my active sense of αἵρεσις, I see the same for φεύγω. It's not just a casual avoidance or avoiding, it is an active fleeing, taking flight (as in Gandalf's telling the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" as he fell in Moria), or escaping from something. True, LSJ includes "avoid" but down the list and in the context of all those other active words.

    So, I much prefer, if I were to translate Epicurus's book Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν (and subsequent mentions of the practice) as "Concerning Choice and Flight" or "Choice and Escape" or "Pursuit and Escape" or something more active than "Choice and 'Avoidance'." You'll often see me use "choice or rejection" on the forum, but I would prefer to use one of those other translations.

  • Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

    Quote from Cassius

    So what are the literal definitions of that word. I can't imagine Don will be satisfied unless we have three or four synonymous usages!

    Ok I see the dictionary version....

    Seems I remember something similar in the Torquatus discussion about analogies and extensions perhaps.

    There's also the verb:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμετρ-έω

    Consider the συμ- sym- similar to the sym- in sympathy "together with (feeling "pathy")"

    -metreō "measure"

    So... Measuring one thing together with another, weighing against each other, judging two things together, etc.

  • Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

    Great call, Nate!! I don't know how that passed me by!

    [130] So, all pleasure, through its nature, belongs to us as a good; however, not all are elected; and just as all pains are entirely evil by their nature, so not all are always to be shunned.It is proper when judging these things to consider what is advantageous and what is not advantageous for you; in other words, what the consequences will be. We consult the consequences of our actions; because, on the one hand, pleasure over time can lead to pain; and on the other hand, pain can lead to pleasure.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμέτρ-ησις

  • Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

    "Hedonic calculus" does seem to be essentially an outdated, Benthamite Utilitarianism term, originally associated with literally counting up the dolors and hedons... which is in reality impossible, from my perspective. There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

    Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

    "Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision, albeit one that can -- should -- be informed by study and/or talking with a friend, guide, or other trusted person.

    Felicific calculus - Wikipedia

    Here's an interesting Humanist article from 2015 by Hiram Crespo that quotes Cassius, Onfray, and others:

    Whose Pleasure? Whose Pain? Applying the Hedonic Calculus to Public Policy - TheHumanist.com
    “We must, therefore, pursue the things that make for happiness, seeing that when happiness is present, we have everything; but when it is absent, we do…
    thehumanist.com

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