Posts by Don

Welcome, @PrudentPleasure . Good username

It's all myth anyway, so there are conflicting birth narratives for many deities. Everybody wanted to be associated with them. From the Theoi site:

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PARENTS

APHRODI′TE (Aphroditê), one of the great Olympian divinities, was, according to the popular and poetical notions of the Greeks, the goddess of love and beauty. Some traditions stated that she had sprung from the foam (aphros) of the sea, which had gathered around the mutilated parts of Uranus, that had been thrown into the sea by Kronos after he had unmanned his father. (Hesiod. Theog. 190; compare Anadyomene.) With the exception of the Homeric hymn on Aphrodite there is no trace of this legend in Homer, and according to him Aphrodite is the daughter of Zeus and Dione. (Il. v. 370, &c., xx. 105.) Later traditions call her a daughter of Kronos and Euonyme, or of Uranus and Hemera. (Cic. De Nat. Deor. iii. 23; Natal. Com. iv. 13.) ... According to Hesiod and the Homeric hymn on Aphrodite, the goddess after rising from the foam first approached the island of Cythera, and thence went to Cyprus, and as she was walking on the sea-coast flowers sprang up under her feet, and Eros and Himeros accompanied her to the assembly of the other great gods, all of whom were struck with admiration and love when she appeared, and her surpassing beauty made every one desire to have her for his wife.

Quote from Joshua

Aphrodite was born of foam off Cythera, but went to Cyprus. Both islands had cultic sites dedicated to her. Athena was born from Zeus' head, but is associated also with the island of Rhodes.

For additional info...

https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html

"According to Hesiod and the Homeric hymn on Aphrodite, the goddess after rising from the foam first approached the island of Cythera, and thence went to Cyprus,..."

ATHENA - Greek Goddess of Wisdom, War & Crafts

Athena was the ancient Greek goddess of wisdom and good counsel, war, the defence of towns, heroic endeavour, weaving, pottery and various other crafts. She…

www.theoi.com

"ATHENE (Athena) was the Olympian goddess of wisdom and good counsel, war, the defence of towns, heroic endeavour, weaving, pottery and various other crafts."

Quote from Joshua

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ANONYMOUS: I, THE pencil, was silver when I came from the fire, but in thy hands I have become golden likewise. So, charming Leontion, hath Athena well gifted thee with supremacy in art, and Cypris with supremacy in beauty.

Book 16 of the Planudean Anthology.

Oh! Cypris is another name for Aphrodite! So Leontion has been given art (τέχνης*) by Athena and beauty by Aphrodite! I get it now.

*

craft, skill, trade

art

cunning, wile

Epicurus also wrote a book entitled Neocles : dedicated to Themista.

Correct, the top half of the statue is not original to the base/chair/legs.

Per Pamela Gordon: According to Margherita Guarducci, lower half is 2nd c.CE Roman copy of Greek original, most of upper half is from another statue, head and arms belong to try another era, and the entire figure was "restored" in the 16th c.

Compare the statue of Epicurus as it was originally found, especially the throne:

I just got The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus through interlibrary loan yesterday and started with the chapter on women in the Garden. The author, within a few pages in the chapter, brought up the fact that some scholars identify a statue of St. Hippolytus in the Vatican as having originally been a statue of Themista of Lampsacus due to the obvious women's double hem and sandals and characteristic throne. The statue, as it is seen today, is pieced together from various fragments, but the throne and base are one piece.

I found one open access article that talks about this:

A Heavily Bearded Philosopher in Women's Underwear. Deconstructing and Reconstructing the Identity of the So-called Hippolytus Statue. In: Louvain Studies 44 (2021), 340-364 (Open Access)

Strictly speaking, the so-called Hippolytus statue should not exist. This free-standing, full-size sculpture of a bearded philosopher, supplied with Christian…

www.academia.edu

Or Google [Themista Hippolytus] and you'll get more resources.

I was completely unaware of this prior to The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus so I am very much looking forward to reading the book.

And along those lines, from my perspective the important distinction isn't mental and physical pleasures; it's pleasures that have their origin within ourselves (recollection, anticipation, freedom from anxiety, etc.) and those that have their origin external to ourselves (taking part in pleasurable activities)

I've been down this road in a previous thread:

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RE: Confidence in Katastematic Pleasure

I really started down this road in part with the discovery of Metrodorus being quoted in Clement of Alexandria's Stromata II.131, p. 498 which states (in translation )

[…]

The primary source for my contention was simply the title of Metrodorus's book: On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects. The Greek title reads: Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ημας αιτιαν προς ευδαιμονιαν της εκ των…

Don

February 10, 2023 at 11:57 PM

Welcome! Salve! Χαίρε!

(Should I assume your screen name is short for TetraPharmakos? ΤετραΦαρμακος?)

Quote from Kalosyni

As for ataraxia, I like to define it as "smooth sailing" to highlight active choices rather than passivity.

There's certainly precedent for that. My understanding is that the word has connotations of calm seas.

That's very kind, Kalosyni . Thank you very much.

And here's a variety of perspectives: Dennett, Kaku, Sapolsky, Pinker, et al...

Here's the compatibilist perspective from Sean Carroll:

Quote from Godfrey

god-bad dichotomy

I don't know if this was a typo or deliberate, but this made smile: there is NO god-bad dichotomy!

Great first post, Quiesco ! Welcome aboard. Look forward to your contributions to our discussions here!

btw, evidently even Epicurus admired Pyrrho's conduct:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius

In debate he was looked down upon by no one, for he could both discourse at length and also sustain a cross-examination, so that even Nausiphanes when a young man was captivated by him: at all events he used to say that we should follow Pyrrho in disposition but himself in doctrine; and he would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho;

Quote from Cassius

so at least five years - maybe more (?)

Zeno was about 7 years younger than Epicurus.

The significance of the timeline is that Epicurus was establishing a mature school in his own property six years before Zeno even began teaching in the Stoa.

Wikipedia:

Apart from Crates, Zeno studied under the philosophers of the Megarian school, including Stilpo, and the dialecticians Diodorus Cronus, and Philo. He is also said to have studied Platonist philosophy under the direction of Xenocrates, and Polemo.

Summary: I would characterize Epicureanism and Stoicism as siblings, with the former being the older one and with all the stereotypical sibling rivalry that goes along with that metaphor. The siblings are not close.

Zeno of Citium ,the founder of the Stoic school of philosophy, which he taught in Athens from about 300 BC. Zeno began teaching in the colonnade in the Agora of Athens known as the Stoa Poikile (Greek Στοὰ Ποικίλη) in 301 BC. His disciples were initially called "Zenonians," but eventually they came to be known as "Stoics," a name previously applied to poets who congregated in the Stoa Poikile.

Bornc . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens

***

Epicurus bought his house and garden in Athens in 306 BCE after teaching in Mytilene and Lampsacus for years. His philosophy was already nearing maturity when he came to Athens.

Born 341 BC Samos, Greece

Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens, Greece

***

Epicurus's philosophy was not in response to Stoicism. Stoicism wasn't developed enough to be a real rival to his philosophy until later in the history of the Garden. The philosophies became true rivals by the time of Cicero and Philodemus.

Epicurus's texts shouldn't be read in reference to Stoicism, but the later texts need to be read with Stoics in mind.

That's my perspective.

So... Timeline

Epicurus Born 341 BCE Samos, Greece

Zeno Born c . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

Epicurus established Garden 306 BCE

Zeno *begins* teaching in the Stoa 300 BCE

Epicurus Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens

Zeno Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens