Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Do we also think that the Vatican sayings numberings were added later?

They weren't numbered, but they're definitely an anthology.

I think the Principal Doctrines reads much more coherently if you don't split it into 40 discrete pieces.

I also want to emphasize that the "40" is superimposed on the text. There is no indication in the manuscripts that they were numbered in any way. There are breaks or spaces in the text, but not in any way indicating each of these "40." The are paragraphs or sections, but not 40 individual doctrines.

Quote from Kalosyni

Going back to the original question: What are the possible reasons why the list of 40 Principal Doctrines does not feature a statement explicitly stating pleasure to be the goal of life?

It is possible that there were more Doctrines than just 40? So that what we have from Diogenes Laetrius is incomplete?

It looks to me that Diogenes Laertius lists two goals -- and this excerpt shows a conflict. On one hand there is "health of the body and tranquility of the mind" but further down "pleasure is the alpha and omega".

Letter from Menoeceus (R.D Hicks):

Quote

We must also reflect that of desires some are
natural, others are groundless ; and that of the natural some are
necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the
necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if
the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live.
[128]
He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will
direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body
and tranquillity of mind, seeing that this is the sum and end of a
blessed life. For the end of all our actions is to be free from pain
and fear, and, when once we have attained all this, the tempest of the soul is laid ; seeing that the living creature has no need to go in search of something that is lacking,
nor to look for anything else by which the good of the soul and of
the body will be fulfilled. When we are pained because of the
absence of pleasure, then, and then only, do we feel the need of
pleasure. Wherefore we call pleasure the alpha and omega of a
blessed life.
[129]
Pleasure is our first and kindred good. It is the
starting-point of every choice and of every aversion, and to it we
come back, inasmuch as we make feeling the rule by which to judge of
every good thing. And since pleasure is our first and native good,
for that reason we do not choose every pleasure whatsoever, but
ofttimes pass over many pleasures when a greater annoyance ensues
from them.

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For what it's worth, here are my verses 128-9 from that section of the letter to Menoikeus:

Quote

[128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind (<τῆς ψυχῆς> ἀταραξίαν ataraxia), that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life. For the sake of this, we do everything in order to neither be in bodily or mental pain nor to be in fear or dread; and so, when once this has come into being around us, it sets free all of the calamity, distress, and suffering of the mind, seeing that the living being has no need to go in search of something that is lacking for the good of our mental and physical existence. For it is then that we need pleasure, if we were to be in pain from the pleasure not being present; but if we were to not be in pain, we no longer desire or beg for pleasure. And this is why we say pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment of the blessed life. [129] Because we perceived pleasure as a fundamental good and common to our nature, and so, as a result of this, we begin every choice and rejection against this, judging every good thing by the standard of how that pleasure affects us or how we react to considering experiencing that pleasure. And because pleasure is the fundamental and inborn good, this is why not every pleasure is seized and we pass by many pleasures when greater unpleasant things were to result for us as a result: and we think many pains better than pleasures whenever greater pleasure were to follow for a longer time by patiently abiding the pain.

Quote from Cassius

So there are numerous ways of coming at this, but the bottom line is I see no reason not to interpret PD01 as applicable to all life everywhere

My reservation on that would be the latter part of PD01 where neither anger not favor/gratitude affects the one who is blessed and incorruptible. Epicurus is clear that gratitude is important for humans to live a pleasurable life.

Quote from Cassius

And from the letter to Menoeceus passage translated as Please is the alpha and Omega of the blessed life...". Same word?

τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν. Yep. It's used there. "pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment of the blessed life." But there's the blessed life open to mortals which has pleasure and pain and the blessed life of the gods with no pain.

Quote from Cassius

And if so that would mean that each of the descriptors if the beings referenced in PD01,

Is immortal/incorruptible used to refer to humans? Or to "goods" like friendship? That's a difference that seems significant to me.

Quote from Cassius

So what about the word translated as "blessed?". Does it have connotations so strong that it cannot be applied to humans? If "immortal" can be applied to human activities, then can "blessed" be less flexible?

Τὸ μακάριον is used in connection with humans, too, one example being PD27

PD1 - blessed, fortunate, wealthy, “well-off”. There appears to me no certain etymology of [makar] or the longer form [makarios/on].It appears to have something to do with being wealthy (both literally and figuratively?).

See also https://books.google.com/books?id=sPCww…ymology&f=false

Notes on MAKARIOS - Blessed

MENO* - Greek Thoughts- Language Studies - StudyLight.org

Also

PD27 Ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα, πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις.

DB - That which wisdom provides with regard to the complete/fulfilled blissful life, by far the best is the gaining of friendship.

Quote from Cassius

Further and rephrased: I wonder if that passage about competing with the gods for happiness indicates that the changing level available to non-gods, when it is at its highest level, can be equal the unchanging level of the gods, with the only difference being the limitation in time available to the non-gods?

VS 33. The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness. σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν [hope or expect to have] κἂν <διὶ [dative of Zeus]> ὑπὲρ εὐδαιμονίας μαχέσαιτο. [contend/compete]

So, it does say contend or compete. It doesn't say equal.

The word translated "highest" is the superlative of άκρος akros:

• At the edge, extreme, beginning, end: outermost (especially of the top)
• Being the most of any characteristic: best, oldest, first

I get the idea that the sense of well-being of the gods is unchanging and constant and so at the "most extreme edge" of the spectrum of how eudaimonia is experienced. Non-gods experience the addition and subtraction (subtraction of pleasures = pain??) in their lives.

Quote from Cassius

Don, as our resident Greek expert, what is your assessment of the possibility that PD01 is not a reference to the gods alone, but is intended to be a reference to the best life for humans as well as gods, and thus serves as a reference to pleasure (the opposite of pain as stated in PDO3) being the goal?

It's possible... Maybe. But I'd also reference DL 10.121:

121] Two sorts of happiness (eudaimonia) can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

121] Τὴν εὐδαιμονίαν διχῆ νοεῖσθαι, τήν τε ἀκροτάτην, οἵα ἐστὶ περὶ τὸν θεόν, ἐπίτασιν οὐκ ἔχουσαν: καὶ τὴν <κατὰ τὴν> προσθήκην καὶ ἀφαίρεσιν ἡδονῶν.

Quote from Kalosyni

"tranquility" within Epicureanism is a state of mind which is free from worry.

Agreed.

Quote from Kalosyni

It is not a state of the body (sitting in stillness). And it is not a state of mind which comes from doing something like Buddhist or Hindu meditations.

Agreed. I would still say that the faculty, state, condition can be strengthened (so to speak) to serve as the foundation for living a pleasurable life.

Quote from Kalosyni

it comes from studying nature and reasoning out issues such as the nature of the natural world, the nature of god(s), the nature of death, using proper choices and avoidances, being confident in future health and security, being confident in support from friends and good neighbors, and self-sufficency.

Agreed And I would say the strengthening of the confidence of ataraxia comes from the continuing study (meditation) of nature etc

Quote from Kalosyni

So that when we do talk about "tranquility" within Epicureanism, it is a result caused by the mind's ability to impliment and reason through all the things I listed in the above paragraph.

Agreed. But tranquility and calm mean tranquility and calm. The metaphor I'd use for it (which seems to be a connotation of the Greek) is like sailing on smooth, tranquil water.

Quote from Kalosyni

We would never say: let's concentrate hard to create some tranquility (that would be putting the cart before the horse) but instead we would simply focus on doing what needs to be done to remove worries from the mind (which may entail making some choices and taking action).

Agreed, I think. There is concentration involved and contemplation and theorizing and putting that contemplation into action. I still translate the wise one's characteristic as "taking more pleasure in contemplation."

Quote from Don

As literal as possible:

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος "The wealth of nature..."

καὶ ὥρισται* καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, "is the best and easily procured...

ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν (kenōn doxōn "empty beliefs/principles/doctrines") εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει. "But that of empty opinions runs onto infinity."

*πλοῦτος ploutos. Ex., plutocracy. Wealth, riches.

**ὥρισται is, according to LSJ, a contraction of ὁ ἄριστος (o aristos) from which we get aristocracy. So, it literally means "best, finest; best in its kind, and so in all sorts of relations, serving as Sup. of ἀγαθός (agathon "good"). I'm wondering if the "limited" translation is from the idea of oligos as in oligarchy as in rule by a few or limited number. If I've misunderstood ὥρισται I am more than open to correction!

PS. There is ὁριστός from ὁρίζω (horízō, “separate, delimit”) but ὥρισται with its sense connected to "the good" seems to me to make sense here.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%84…2#Ancient_Greek

I would be curious to get Eikadistes 's take.

PS: I found it interesting that the predicates in the first phrase are ὥρισται ooristai and εὐπόριστός euporistos. The first appears to be a feminine plural and the second appears to be masculine? So, do they apply to ploutos (it would appear given the ending of the euporistos) or to "nature" physeos? This is where my Greek knowledge begins to break down

Per LSJ:

εὐπόρ-ιστος , ον, (πορίζω)

A.easy to procure or secure, Id.Ep.3p.63U., Sent.21, Fr.469, Dsc.Eup. Praef.: Sup., ἀμπεχόνη, οἰκία, Ph.2.424, cf. Phld.D.1.15; feasible, Cic.Att.7.1.7; εὐπόριστα (sc. φάρμακα), τά, common, family medicines: title of work by Dsc., Orib.Eup.Praef. (called περὶ ἁπλῶν φαρμάκων in codd. of Dsc.Eup.); also, ordinary food, opp. game out of season, Plu.Luc.40, Pomp.2. II. Act., providing one's subsistence with ease, Ptol.Tetr.155.

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I just realized there's this epitaph of Epicurus from Atheneaus quoted by Diogenes Laertius:

And here is the epigram20 in which Athenaeus eulogizes him :

[12] Ye toil, O men, for paltry things and incessantly begin strife and war for gain ;

but nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range.

This message Neocles' wise son heard from the Muses or from the sacred tripod at Delphi.21

[12] ἄνθρωποι, μοχθεῖτε τὰ χείρονα, καὶ διὰ κέρδος ἄπληστοι νεικέων ἄρχετε καὶ πολέμων:

τᾶς φύσιος δ᾽ ὁ πλοῦτος ὅρον τινὰ βαιὸν ἐπίσχει, αἱ δὲ κεναὶ κρίσιες τὰν ἀπέραντον ὁδόν.

τοῦτο Νεοκλῆος πινυτὸν τέκος ἢ παρὰ Μουσέων ἔκλυεν ἢ Πυθοῦς ἐξ ἱερῶν τριπόδων.

20 Anthology of Planudes. iv. 43.

This text mentions "nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range" but the same wording is not used as in the PD itself. However, in light of this, I can see how the PD is translated with "limited". That said, I'm not 100% convinced that "the best of its kind" can't be correct. I'm less sure than I was, but not entirely dissuaded.

Quote from Onenski

Quote from Don

Metrodorus stresses the importance of both kinds of pleasures, but he also wrote a book entitled "On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects."

Hi, Don!

I think I have another possible interpretation of Metrodorus' book title. This is the idea: who is "ourselves" referring to? The first and obvious interpretation is "each one of us, internally". Another possible interpretation is "us, as a community of epicurean friends".

What I mean is that we can derive two very different ideas from the title of the book. The first one is, I think, in some sense ascetic, or individualistic: "I can be happy and have pleasure by myself. I don't need the objects around me" (I'm exaggerating for clearness). The second one is more social: "the greatest pleasures are not in wine, banquets, money, etc. The greatest pleasures are in ourselves, people, in the moments we have in our community with our friends".

All this depends, of course, on the ambiguity of the "ourselves" in English, so if it doesn't exist in Greek, just ignore my comment 😅

In any case, my own opinion about katastematic pleasures is that I think they don't derive from epicurean physics, so the only reason we can have to defend them must be a practical reason. So, if we accept the distinction between kinetic and katastematic pleasures, it must be because is useful for having a joyful life.

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I think you raise a very interesting interpretation. As you said, it depends on the Greek. So, let's see what we can find:

On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects

Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ημας αιτιαν προς ευδαιμονιαν της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον

Let's break this down...which I should have done at the beginning! I should know better than to take any translation at face value.

Περι just introduces the book title like "On.." "About..." "Concerning..."

μειζονα is the "greater, larger"

την παρ' ημας αιτιαν has an embedded phrase is something like "the cause for us"

The "in Ourselves" in the original translation appears to come from παρ' ημας appears to be stock phrase in the language meaning “resulting from us"

ημας is the accusative of ἡμεῖς (hēmeîs): us (1st person plural)

προς ευδαιμονιαν toward happiness (lit. eudaimonia)

της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον that which is good from things (pragmaton)

πρᾶγμᾰ (prâgma) n (genitive πρᾱ́γμᾰτος); third declension

• deed, act, fact
• occurrence, matter, affair
• thing
• (in the plural) circumstances, affairs

So, I'm not sure that solves the question, but there's some information to add to the discussion.

Another translation now could be "Concerning that cause resulting from us that leads to eudaimonia is greater than that which is good from things." Clunky, I know, but as literal as I can make it.

PS. My main hesitation in ascribing a community meaning to "resulting from ourselves" is that the quote from the book describes an internal state: "What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?"

I haven't decided if this is going to be useful or not, but I went through Diogenes Laertius, Book 10, and pulled out the times that ataraxia (or a form of the word) shows up:

Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus:

[80] we must not suppose that our treatment of these matters fails of accuracy, so far as it is needful to ensure our tranquillity and happiness*. When, therefore, we investigate the causes of celestial and atmospheric phenomena, as of all that is unknown, we must take into account the variety of ways in which analogous occurrences happen within our experience ; while as for those who do not recognize the difference between what is or comes about from a single cause and that which may be the effect of any one of several causes, overlooking the fact that the objects are only seen at a distance, and are moreover ignorant of the conditions that render, or do not render, peace of mind** impossible --all such persons we must treat with contempt. If then we think that an event could happen in one or other particular way out of several, ***we shall be as tranquil*** when we recognize that it actually comes about in more ways than one as if we knew that it happens in this particular way.

*τὸ ἀτάραχον καὶ μακάριον (to atarakhon (&) makarion): atarakhon is a form of the word ataraxia; makarion is the word used to describe the blessedness of the gods.

**ἀταρακτῆσαι ataraktesai

**ἀταρακτήσομεν ataraktesomen "we shall be tranquil"

[82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

*ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)

Epicurus, Letter to Pythocles:

[85] In the first place, remember that, like everything else, knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether taken along with other things or in isolation, has no other end in view than peace of mind* and firm conviction.

*ἀταραξίαν ataraxian/ataraksian

[96] if you fight against clear evidence, you never can enjoy genuine peace of mind*.

* ἀταραξίας ataraxias/ataraksias

Diogenes Laertius, X.128:

[128] He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body and *tranquillity of mind*, seeing that this is the sum and end of a blessed life.

* τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ἀταραξίαν ten tes psykhes ataraxian/ataraksian

Diogenes Laertius, X.136:

The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : "*Peace of mind* and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest ; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity."

ὁ δ᾽ Ἐπίκουρος ἐν τῷ Περὶ αἱρέσεων οὕτω λέγει: "ἡ μὲν γὰρ *ἀταραξία* καὶ ἀπονία καταστηματικαί εἰσιν ἡδοναί: ἡ δὲ χαρὰ καὶ ἡ εὐφροσύνη κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ βλέπονται."

PD17:

17. The just man enjoys the *greatest peace of mind*, while the unjust is full of the utmost **disquietude**.

Ὁ δίκαιος *ἀταρακτότατος*, ὁ δ᾽ ἄδικος πλείστης **ταραχῆς** γέμων.

*ἀταρακτότατος ataraktotatos

Compare **ταραχῆς** tarakhes (the latter part of a + taraksia "not + disquietude")

I would add to this the two forms of γαλήνιος "calm" shows up as well.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Don

Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus,

So sounds like "calmness" coming through the practice of studying natural science?

And at the end of the letter to Herodotus, Epicurus writes:

"It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind (γαληνισμὸν galenismon - related to the same word he uses to describe his own calm coming from the study of nature)."

Quote from Kalosyni

Thinking about the larger context:

It possible that the "calm" within Epicureanism is refering to the feeling which arises when one thinks about "when death is, I will not be" and the "gods do not punish" (they are not the cause of thunder and lightening and they are not involved with humans).

So it is not a "mind-over-matter" like in Hinduism or Buddhism, but rather reasoning through those two things (death and the nature of the gods).

Is there any other practices in Epicureanism besides these two, that would lead to a feeling of "calm"?

[37] "Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus

ἐγγαληνίζω τῷ βίῳ, "spend life calmly"

from γαληνίζω ,

A.calm, still, esp. waves or winds, Hp.Vict.3.71, E.Fr.1079.

2. intr., become calm, prob. in Hp. Morb.Sacr.13; to be calm or tranquil, Alex.178.6, Ph.1.354; “τὸ γαληνίζον τῆς θαλάττης” Arist.Pr.936a5:—so in Med., Xenocr. ap. Orib.2.58.98.

Very much enjoyed the novel The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell on this topic

The Sparrow (novel) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Joshua

Quote

-GAUNT-

All places that the eye of heaven visits

Are to a wise man ports and happy havens.

Teach thy necessity to reason thus:

There is no virtue like necessity.

Think not the King did banish thee,

But thou the King. Woe doth the heavier sit

Where it perceives it is but faintly borne.

Go, say I sent thee forth to purchase honor,

And not the King exiled thee; or suppose

Devouring pestilence hangs in our air

And thou art flying to a fresher clime.

Look what thy soul holds dear, imagine it

To lie that way thou goest, not whence thou com’st.

Suppose the singing birds musicians,

The grass whereon thou tread’st the presence

strewed,

The flowers fair ladies, and thy steps no more

Than a delightful measure or a dance;

For gnarling sorrow hath less power to bite

The man that mocks at it and sets it light.

-BOLINGBROKE-

O, who can hold a fire in his hand

By thinking on the frosty Caucasus?

Or cloy the hungry edge of appetite

By bare imagination of a feast?

Or wallow naked in December snow

By thinking on fantastic summer’s heat?

O no, the apprehension of the good

Gives but the greater feeling to the worse.

Fell sorrow’s tooth doth never rankle more

Than when he bites but lanceth not the sore.

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I was thinking of this exchange in Richard II in relation to 'ataraxia under duress'. John of Gaunt is Bolingbroke's father, and has dutifully argued for his own son's banishment--a service to the king which he comes to bitterly regret. One senses that his advice is as much for himself as for his son. But Bolingbroke is having none of it. "Who can hold a fire in his hand by thinking on the frosty Caucasus?"

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I had thoughts of ataraxia under duress watching this interview with David Hogg. He addresses the idea specifically (using calm not ataraxia, of course) starting around 0:58.

Quote from Cassius

VS08. The wealth required by Nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth required by vain ideals extends to infinity

"Required?"

Yeah, I don't see *required* in the Greek. It literally just says "is" ἐστιν.

As literal as possible:

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος "The wealth of nature..."

καὶ ὥρισται* καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, "is the best and easily procured...

ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν (kenōn doxōn "empty beliefs/principles/doctrines") εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει. "But that of empty opinions runs onto infinity."

*πλοῦτος ploutos. Ex., plutocracy. Wealth, riches.

**ὥρισται is, according to LSJ, a contraction of ὁ ἄριστος (o aristos) from which we get aristocracy. So, it literally means "best, finest; best in its kind, and so in all sorts of relations, serving as Sup. of ἀγαθός (agathon "good"). I'm wondering if the "limited" translation is from the idea of oligos as in oligarchy as in rule by a few or limited number. If I've misunderstood ὥρισται I am more than open to correction!

PS. There is ὁριστός from ὁρίζω (horízō, “separate, delimit”) but ὥρισται with its sense connected to "the good" seems to me to make sense here.

ἄριστος - Wiktionary

I would be curious to get Eikadistes 's take.

PS: I found it interesting that the predicates in the first phrase are ὥρισται ooristai and εὐπόριστός euporistos. The first appears to be a feminine plural and the second appears to be masculine? So, do they apply to ploutos (it would appear given the ending of the euporistos) or to "nature" physeos? This is where my Greek knowledge begins to break down

Per LSJ:

εὐπόρ-ιστος , ον, (πορίζω)

A.easy to procure or secure, Id.Ep.3p.63U., Sent.21, Fr.469, Dsc.Eup. Praef.: Sup., ἀμπεχόνη, οἰκία, Ph.2.424, cf. Phld.D.1.15; feasible, Cic.Att.7.1.7; εὐπόριστα (sc. φάρμακα), τά, common, family medicines: title of work by Dsc., Orib.Eup.Praef. (called περὶ ἁπλῶν φαρμάκων in codd. of Dsc.Eup.); also, ordinary food, opp. game out of season, Plu.Luc.40, Pomp.2. II. Act., providing one's subsistence with ease, Ptol.Tetr.155.