Posts by Don

Insightful comments from everyone. Thanks for engaging!!

Let me say that I'm willing to concede that we probably should - to use a Philodemus phrase - feel the bite of anxiety when it is appropriate. Maybe such as at a particular unexpected event like the tornado. I could see feeling "anxious" about that. But we shouldn't let the bite linger unnecessarily or overwhelm us! My position (to offer some concessions and compromises in light of this discussion) is due to my interpreting "anxiety" as "chronic worry or dread with no action resulting from the mental disturbance." So, what some of you are putting under the heading of anxiety, I'd probably - rightly or wrongly - pick another word to describe that emotion.

Additionally, I do think Epicurus calls us to rid ourselves of anxiety in certain things: punishment after death, wrath of the gods, etc., etc. We should eradicate those beliefs and feel no anxiety about those.

Quote from Kalosyni

we will need to ask ourselves "Is this a healthy worry or an unhealthy worry?"

Well put.

Happy Twentieth!!

I can't make it tonight. Family obligations.

I may try to make it this Saturday for the European meeting. Work that day is up in the air.

So, anyway...

A Joyous Twentieth to All!

I would say it's a pain we do not have to undergo. It's turbulence and trouble that isn't necessary.

Quote from waterholic

When it comes to Epicurus, accepting pain and anxiety may be acceptable for pleasure in the future,

Pain, yes. Anxiety, no.

I think we can be concerned about the future or plan for the future or foresee the future without including anxiety in the mix. Anxiety - defined here by me as the opposite of ataraxia - is adding suffering on top of waiting for evidence or planning for the future.

If I see a tornado in the distance, having anxiety about it doesn't help me or anyone around me. Of course, I'm going to take it seriously, I'm going try and remember what I know about the behavior of tornadoes, I'm going to get my family and I moving, I'm going to keep an eye on its progress. But adding anxiety on top of that - "Oh, man! Oh, man! Oh, man!! It's coming. It's coming! - doesn't help me make prudent choices and serves no positive purpose.

Quote from waterholic

In the end, certain knowledge/understanding helps train our minds and vanquish the anxiety.

Well stated. My take is that the "virtue" the Stoics use to build their freedom from anxiety foundation is rickety and unstable, whereas the Epicurean foundation of rooting out beliefs, suspicions, and superstitions is much sounder.

Follow-up on the Lonesome Dove quote that Dr. Austin refers to:

Quote

“Lorie darlin’, life in San Francisco, you see, is still just life. If you want any one thing too badly, it’s likely to turn out to be a disappointment. The only healthy way to live life is to learn to like all the little everyday things, like a sip of good whiskey in the evening, a soft bed, a glass of buttermilk, or a feisty gentleman like myself.”

Tell it, Gus.

Quote from waterholic

indeed, sometimes periods of anxiety are unavoidable and even desireable for the likelihood of future pleasure.

I'm still not convinced by this sentiment even though I respect all three people making it: Kalosyni , Cassius , and @waterholic .

Anxiety need not be a given in our lives. We can plan without being anxious. We can endure pain - even deliberately choose pain - without the addition of anxiety if we consider the circumstances or know it will lead to more pleasure. We can choose to remain calm even "under fire" (literally, in the case of the video of David Hogg during a school shooting.) Freedom from anxiety and its associated mental disturbances is what Epicurus is calling us to experience so that we can better experience all the other pleasures available to us, free from the underlying mental disturbances that would mar that pleasurable experience.

Just having compiled in another thread all the references to ataraxia and related terms from the texts, I remain convinced this is the case.

ΕΥΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΑ (Eudaimonia and related terms. There are not as many variants of eudaimonia as ataraxia, but all present will be accounted for in this entry)

From εὐδαίμων (eudaímōn, “fortunate”) +‎ -ίᾱ (-íā, “feminine abstract substantive”); eu "good/well" + daimon "in-dwelling spirit; daemon". While δαίμων was sometimes used interchangeably with θεός (theós), when used together in a context, a δαίμων is usually a lower god than a θεός (theós).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ry=eu)daimoni/a

NOTE: This is a placeholder entry for occurrences of eudaimonia in the texts ... more to come.

ΑΤΑΡΑΞΙΑ (Ataraxia and related terms: Note that αταραξια is literally "ataraksia" even though the usual English spelling is "ataraxia." Therefore, words that have atarak- are directly related.

From ἀ- (a-, “not”) +‎ ταράσσω (tarássō, “trouble, disturb”) +‎ -ῐ́ᾱ (-íā); Antonyms: τᾰρᾰχή (tarakhḗ)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀτα^ρ-αξία

PD17 One who acts aright is utterly steady and serene, whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion. (Peter Saint-Andre)

ὁ δίκαιος ἀταρακτότατος, ὁ δʼ ἄδικος πλείστης ταραχῆς γήμων.

NOTE: ἀταρακτότατος means "utterly without disturbance" and by extension steady or serene, whereas πλείστης ταραχῆς means full of trouble, disorder, or tumult (expanded here to "full of trouble and confusion"; see also PD22

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VS79 He who is as peace within himself also causes no trouble for others. (Peter Saint-Andre)

ὁ ἀτάραχος ἑαυτῷ καὶ ἑτέρῳ ἀόχλητος.

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Fragment 519. The greatest fruit of justice is serenity.

δικαιοσύνης καρπὸς μέγιστος ἀταραξία.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.53; Hicks via Perseus): "Again, we must believe that smelling,81 like hearing, would produce no sensation, were there not particles conveyed from the object which are of the proper sort for exciting the organ of smelling, some of one sort, some of another, some exciting it confusedly and strangely, others quietly and agreeably.
"Καὶ μὴν καὶ τὴν ὀσμὴν νομιστέον, ὥσπερ καὶ τὴν ἀκοὴν οὐκ ἄν ποτε οὐθὲν πάθος ἐργάσασθαι, εἰ μὴ ὄγκοι τινὲς ἦσαν ἀπὸ τοῦ πράγματος ἀποφερόμενοι σύμμετροι πρὸς τοῦτο τὸ αἰσθητήριον κινεῖν, οἱ μὲν τοῖοι τεταραγμένως καὶ ἀλλοτρίως, οἱ δὲ τοῖοι ἀταράχως καὶ οἰκείως ἔχοντες.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.80; Hicks via Perseus): [80] we must not suppose that our treatment of these matters fails of accuracy, so far as it is needful to ensure our tranquillity and happiness (Don Note: lit. blessedness "makarion" - same word used for the gods). When, therefore, we investigate the causes of celestial and atmospheric phenomena, as of all that is unknown, we must take into account the variety of ways in which analogous occurrences happen within our experience ; while as for those who do not recognize the difference between what is or comes about from a single cause and that which may be the effect of any one of several causes, overlooking the fact that the objects are only seen at a distance, and are moreover ignorant of the conditions that render, or do not render, peace of mind impossible --all such persons we must treat with contempt. If then we think that an event could happen in one or other particular way out of several, we shall be as tranquil when we recognize that it actually comes about in more ways than one as if we knew that it happens in this particular way.

[80] οὐ δεῖ νομίζειν τὴν ὑπὲρ τούτων χρείαν ἀκρίβειαν μὴ ἀπειληφέναι, ὅση πρὸς τὸ ἀτάραχον καὶ μακάριον ἡμῶν συντείνει. ὥστε παραθεωροῦντας ποσαχῶς παρ᾽ ἡμῖν τὸ ὅμοιον γίνεται, αἰτιολογητέον ὑπέρ τε τῶν μετεώρων καὶ παντὸς τοῦ ἀδήλου, καταφρονοῦντας τῶν οὔτε τὸ μοναχῶς ἔχον ἢ γινόμενον γνωριζόντων οὔτε τὸ πλεοναχῶς συμβαῖνον, τὴν ἐκ τῶν ἀποστημάτων φαντασίαν παριδόντων,121 ἔτι τε ἀγνοούντων καὶ ἐν ποίοις οὐκ ἐστιν ἀταρακτῆσαι <καὶ ἐν ποίοις ὁμοίως ἀταρακτῆσαι.>122 ἂν οὖν οἰώμεθα καὶ ὡδί πως ἐνδεχόμενον αὐτὸ γίνεσθαι, αὐτὸ τὸ ὅτι πλεοναχῶς γίνεται γνωρίζοντες, ὥσπερ κἂν ὅτι ὡδί πως γίνεται εἴδωμεν, ἀταρακτήσομεν.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.82; Hicks via Perseus): [82] But mental tranquillity means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

[82] ἡ δὲ ἀταραξία τὸ τούτων πάντων ἀπολελύσθαι καὶ συνεχῆ μνήμην ἔχειν τῶν ὅλων καὶ κυριωτάτων.

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Epicurs, Letter to Pythocles (DL 10.85; Hicks via Perseus): "In the first place, remember that, like everything else, knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether taken along with other things or in isolation, has no other end in view than peace of mind and firm conviction.

"Πρῶτον μὲν οὖν μὴ ἄλλο τι τέλος ἐκ τῆς περὶ μετεώρων γνώσεως εἴτε κατὰ συναφὴν λεγομένων εἴτε αὐτοτελῶς νομίζειν εἶναι ἤπερ ἀταραξίαν καὶ πίστιν βέβαιον, καθάπερ καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν λοιπῶν.

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Epicurus, Letter to Pythocles (DL 10.96; Hicks via Perseus): [96] For in all the celestial phenomena such a line of research is not to be abandoned ; for, if you fight against clear evidence, you never can enjoy genuine peace of mind.

[96] ἐπὶ πάντων γὰρ τῶν μετεώρων τὴν τοιαύτην ἴχνευσιν152 οὐ προετέον. ἢν γάρ τις ᾖ μαχόμενος τοῖς ἐναργήμασιν, οὐδέποτε δυνήσεται ἀταραξίας γνησίου μεταλαβεῖν.

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Epicurus, On Choices and Avoidances (DL10.136; Hicks revised slightly by Don to be more literal, via Perseus): And Epicurus in his work On Choice states in this manner: "Peace of mind and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest ; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity."

ὁ δ᾽ Ἐπίκουρος ἐν τῷ Περὶ αἱρέσεων οὕτω λέγει: "ἡ μὲν γὰρ ἀταραξία καὶ ἀπονία καταστηματικαί εἰσιν ἡδοναί: ἡ δὲ χαρὰ καὶ ἡ εὐφροσύνη κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ βλέπονται."

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Epicurus, Letter to Menoikeus 128 ( Don translation):

[128] The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind* since this is the goal of a blessed life.

[128] τούτων γὰρ ἀπλανὴς θεωρία πᾶσαν αἵρεσιν καὶ φυγὴν ἐπανάγειν οἶδεν ἐπὶ τὴν τοῦ σώματος ὑγίειαν καὶ τὴν <τῆς ψυχῆς> ἀταραξίαν, ἐπεὶ τοῦτο τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν ἐστι τέλος.

*NOTE: I added the parenthetical phrase "that is for our physical and our mental existence," at this point in my translation to clarify and paraphrase the previous phrases.

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I would also include citations to γαληνίζω (galēnizō) and related terms as synonyms for ataraxia:

Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.37): [37] "Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this"

37] "Ὅθεν δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ, παρεγγυῶν τὸ συνεχὲς ἐνέργημα ἐν φυσιολογίᾳ καὶ τοιούτῳ μάλιστα ἐγγαληνίζων τῷ βίῳ ἐποίησά σοι ...

ἐγγαληνίζω τῷ βίῳ, "spend life calmly" from γαληνίζω

A.calm, still, esp. waves or winds, Hp.Vict.3.71, E.Fr.1079.

2. intr., become calm, prob. in Hp. Morb.Sacr.13; to be calm or tranquil, Alex.178.6, Ph.1.354; “τὸ γαληνίζον τῆς θαλάττης” Arist.Pr.936a5:—so in Med., Xenocr. ap. Orib.2.58.98.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus (DL 10.83, last line of the letter):

"It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind."

"Τοιαῦτα γάρ ἐστιν, ὥστε καὶ τοὺς κατὰ μέρος ἤδη ἐξακριβοῦντας ἱκανῶς ἢ καὶ τελείως, εἰς τὰς τοιαύτας ἀναλύοντας ἐπιβολάς, τὰς πλείστας τῶν περιοδειῶν ὑπὲρ τῆς ὅλης φύσεως ποιεῖσθαι: ὅσοι δὲ μὴ παντελῶς τῶν ἀποτελουμένων εἰσίν, ἐκ τούτων καὶ κατὰ τὸν ἄνευ φθόγγων τρόπον τὴν ἅμα νοήματι περίοδον τῶν κυριωτάτων πρὸς γαληνισμὸν ποιοῦνται."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, γα^λην-ισμός

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It would also be instructive to include variations on the word ταραχή (tarakhē; "trouble", "disorder", or "tumult") since that forms the root of ataraxia ("no trouble", "no disorder", or "no tumult")

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, τα^ρα^χή

Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus. (DL 10.77): [77] For troubles and anxieties and feelings of anger and partiality do not accord with bliss, but always imply weakness and fear and dependence upon one's neighbours. Nor, again, must we hold that things which are no more than globular masses of fire, being at the same time endowed with bliss, assume these motions at will. Nay, in every term we use we must hold fast to all the majesty which attaches to such notions as bliss and immortality, lest the terms should generate opinions inconsistent with this majesty. Otherwise such inconsistency will of itself suffice to produce the worst disturbance in our minds. Hence, where we find phenomena invariably recurring, the invariableness of the recurrence must be ascribed to the original interception and conglomeration of atoms whereby the world was formed.

[77] ἀφθαρσίας ῾οὐ γὰρ συμφωνοῦσιν πραγματεῖαι καὶ φροντίδες καὶ ὀργαὶ καὶ χάριτες μακαριότητι, ἀλλ᾽ ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ καὶ φόβῳ καὶ προσδεήσει τῶν πλησίον ταῦτα γίγνεταἰ, μήτε αὖ πυρὸς ἀνάμματα συνεστραμμένου τὴν μακαριότητα κεκτημένα κατὰ βούλησιν τὰς κινήσεις ταύτας λαμβάνειν: ἀλλὰ πᾶν τὸ σέμνωμα τηρεῖν, κατὰ πάντα ὀνόματα φερόμενον ἐπὶ τὰς τοιαύτας ἐννοίας, ἵνα μηδ᾽ ὑπεναντίαι ἐξ αὐτῶν <γένωνται> τῷ σεμνώματι δόξαι: εἰ δὲ μή, τὸν μέγιστον τάραχον ἐν ταῖς ψυχαῖς αὐτὴ ἡ ὑπεναντιότης παρασκευάσει. ὅθεν δὴ κατὰ τὰς ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἐναπολήψεις τῶν συστροφῶν τούτων ἐν τῇ τοῦ κόσμου γενέσει δεῖ δοξάζειν καὶ τὴν ἀνάγκην ταύτην καὶ περίοδον συντελεῖσθαι.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus. (DL 10.78):

"Ἔτι τε οὐ τὸ πλεοναχῶς ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις εἶναι καὶ τὸ ἐνδεχόμενον καὶ ἄλλως πως ἔχειν, ἀλλ᾽ ἁπλῶς μὴ εἶναι ἐν ἀφθάρτῳ καὶ μακαρίᾳ φύσει τῶν διάκρισιν ὑποβαλλόντων ἢ τάραχον μηθέν: καὶ τοῦτο καταλαβεῖν τῇ διανοίᾳ ἔστιν ἁπλῶς εἶναι.

"Further, we must recognize on such points as this no plurality of causes or contingency, but must hold that nothing suggestive of conflict or disquiet is compatible with an immortal and blessed nature. And the mind can grasp the absolute truth of this.

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus. (DL 10.81): [81] "There is yet one more point to seize, namely, that the greatest anxiety of the human mind arises through the belief that the heavenly bodies are blessed and indestructible, and that at the same time they have volitions and actions and causality inconsistent with this belief ; and through expecting or apprehending some everlasting evil, either because of the myths, or because we are in dread of the mere insensibility of death, as if it had to do with us ; and through being reduced to this state not by conviction but by a certain irrational perversity, so that, if men do not set bounds to their terror, they endure as much or even more intense anxiety than the man whose views on these matters are quite vague.

[81] "Ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοις ὅλως ἅπασιν ἐκεῖνο δεῖ κατανοεῖν, ὅτι τάραχος ὁ κυριώτατος ταῖς ἀνθρωπίναις ψυχαῖς γίνεται ἐν τῷ ταῦτά τε μακάρια δοξάζειν <εἶναι> καὶ ἄφθαρτα, καὶ ὑπεναντίας ἔχειν τούτῳ βουλήσεις ἅμα καὶ πράξεις καὶ αἰτίας, καὶ ἐν τῷ αἰώνιόν τι δεινὸν ἀεὶ προσδοκᾶν ἢ ὑποπτεύειν κατὰ τοὺς μύθους εἴ τε καὶ αὐτὴν τὴν ἀναισθησίαν τὴν ἐν τῷ τεθνάναι φοβουμένους ὥσπερ οὖσαν κατ᾽ αὐτούς, καὶ ἐν τῷ μὴ δόξαις ταῦτα πάσχειν ἀλλ᾽ ἀλόγῳ γέ τινι παραστάσει, ὅθεν μὴ ὁρίζοντας τὸ δεινὸν τὴν ἴσην ἢ καὶ ἐπιτεταμένην ταραχὴν λαμβάνειν τῷ εἰκαίως δοξάζοντι ταῦτα:

(NOTE: This directly precedes section DL 10.82 cited above and below.)

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Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus. (DL 10.82): For by studying them we shall rightly trace to its cause and banish the source of disturbance and dread, accounting for celestial phenomena and for all other things which from time to time befall us and cause the utmost alarm to the rest of mankind.

ἂν γὰρ τούτοις προσέχωμεν, τὸ ὅθεν ὁ τάραχος καὶ ὁ φόβος ἐγίνετο ἐξαιτιολογήσομεν ὀρθῶς καὶ ἀπολύσομεν, ὑπέρ τε μετεώρων αἰτιολογοῦντες καὶ τῶν λοιπῶν τῶν ἀεὶ παρεμπιπτόντων, ὅσα φοβεῖ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἐσχάτως.

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Epicurus, Letter to Menoikeus, (DL 10.131, Don translation):

Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal like those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly; but we mean that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind.

Ὅταν οὖν λέγωμεν ἡδονὴν τέλος ὑπάρχειν, οὐ τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας λέγομεν, ὥς τινες ἀγνοοῦντες καὶ οὐχ ὁμολογοῦντες ἢ κακῶς ἐκδεχόμενοι νομίζουσιν, ἀλλὰ τὸ μήτε ἀλγεῖν κατὰ σῶμα μήτε ταράττεσθαι κατὰ ψυχήν·

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PD22 (Peter Saint-Andre) You must reflect on the fundamental goal and everything that is clear, to which opinions are referred; if you do not, all will be full of trouble and confusion.

τὸ ὑφεστηκὸς δεῖ τέλος ἐπιλογίζεσθαι καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν ἐνάργειαν, ἐφʼ ἣν τὰ δοξαζόμενα ἀνάγομεν· εἰ δὲ μὴ πάντα ἀκρισίας καὶ ταραχῆς ἔσται μεστά.

NOTE: Here the translated phrase "trouble and confusion" reflects the Greek words ἀκρισία (literally "indistinctness") and ταραχή (literally "trouble", "disorder", or "tumult"); see also Principal Doctrine #17 and the note thereto.

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NOTE: This is not necessarily an exhaustive list as the writings of Philodemus and Metrodorus may yield more citations, but they are not as readily searched as the sources above.

Friendship was, is, and will be one of the most important factors for one's well-being.

That's from the long-running Harvard Study of Adult Development.:

“People who are more connected to family, to friends, and to community, are happier and physically healthier than people who are less well connected.”

What the Longest Happiness Study Reveals About Finding Fulfillment

A new book summarizes the findings from a famous happiness study that began in the 1930s—and explains how you can be happier.

greatergood.berkeley.edu

While the expectations and responsibilities of friendship were different in ancient Greece (one's literal life could be at risk without friends), the benefits of friendship overall would still be similar over time. I find the wording of that quote from the Harvard study interesting: “People who are more connected to family, to friends, and to community, are happier and physically healthier than people who are less well connected.” In ancient Greece, one could be physically healthier because your friends and family literally had to take care of all your needs if you got sick or injured. Now, we have some social safety net programs and hospitals and other institutions... but MANY things still have to be relied on through the kindness of friends and family: dropping off food if sick or recovering from surgery, a kind ear or should to cry one, etc.

In some ways, the adage "the more things change, the more they stay the same" seems apropos here.

Quote from Cassius

As to "perennial philosophy" - a term new to me - Yikes!!!

It's a new term to me too, but I used to be an advocate for the "different paths up the same mountain" thing. There are obviously *experiences* that may be common by virtue of being humans and animals and part of the natural world. But the *interpretation* of those experiences - those are probably different mountains altogether.

Oh, and they are NOT supernatural experiences! They may feel that way, but they're NOT evidence of mystical, supernatural states or dimensions. Just had to add that in.

Oddly enough, it was the Dalai Lama himself that turned me to exploring Western philosophy:

Quote from Dalai Lama

I always tell my Western friends that it is best to keep your own tradition. Changing religion is not easy and sometimes causes confusion. You must value your tradition and honor your own religion.

I've seen that "your own religion" part expanded to mean Western traditions and philosophy. So, even he isn't a proponent of the perennial philosophy it seems.

Quote from Cassius

The right track to what?

Just to be clear, I'm saying the Buddhists are wrong too. They would say tamping down desires is the right track.

Quote from Cassius

peril for those who are not clear about why they might want to do so.

Agreed. Even though I may not agree with the technical translation, I still agree with the sentiment of "there's a limit to frugality..."

This one seems pretty good, too:

How to cultivate an abundance mindset - The Aesthetics of Joy by Ingrid Fetell Lee

Overcoming a scarcity mindset isn't easy, but these 6 tips can help you cultivate the an abundance mindset and see the world as generous and full of…

aestheticsofjoy.com

Especially in light of the "wealth of nature" thread we had recently:

Quote from blog

Wealth is having enough resources (money, health, connections, etc.) to live the life you want to live.

Godfrey : Changed my emoji on your article find from a "thanks" to a "heart"! I'm curious to explore that blog more.

And I agree with your "something if the air these days." I'm torn on my reaction to all of this. Rucker, positive psychology, frugal hedonists, happiness research, and on and on all seem to be... Let's call it touching different pieces of the Elephant of Epicurean Philosophy and coming away with helpful lessons but missing the bigger coherent worldview.

It seems to me that the blog's author's conclusion is Epicurean: learn to want better. The last 4 paragraphs are great! I think Buddhists would say "to want less, to control and tamp down our desires" is the right track. But I am convinced Epicurus didn't and wouldn't advocate "a state of over-consuming, goal-oriented pursuit, never able to enjoy anything." However, I think he'd agree with the author that desires are

Quote from from blog

"more nuanced. It’s not that wanting is bad, but that so many of us live our lives trying to satisfy the wants of others without really understanding what we want for ourselves. We pursue accolades to satisfy the wants of our parents, we acquire material things that to fix what marketers have told us is “wanting” in us.... Maybe we accept the gratification of a high-status job because we learned approval is more attainable than unconditional love.

The whole idea of "wanting better" seems an apt metaphor for Epicurus's prudent perspective on living for pleasure.

Okay, I cheated and was finally able to download the ebook from my library. Epicurus is not mentioned in Rucker's book, although I find his text even more Epicurean then "The Art of Frugal Hedonism." I'll give Rucker the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn't aware of the parallels.

Should we make him aware (after more of us read it... All the way through)?

I hinted at this but let's make it explicit. The Art of Frugal Hedonism specifically mentions Epicurus, but I had't reached those sections yet. Let's jump ahead, shall we...

"The ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus taught that three things are essential for a happy life: friendship, freedom, and time for contemplation."

Caption to a photo: "Bar of Frugal Legends: Robinson Crusoe, Epicurus, Ernest Shackleton, and Miss Honey. Now, who's buying the first round?"

In chapter 30: People who need people are the luckiest people in the world:

"The truth about Epicurus: Epicurus was an ancient Greek philosopher who lived from 341 to 270 BC. For most people, his name carries with it the stink of rich cheeses, the sloshing of wine pitchers, and a general association with luxuriant gourmandising.

"Records tell us that he was indeed parital to a spot of cheese, and was a great advocate for taking full pleasure in the sensual world, but in a manner far removed from the excessive indulgence suggested by his modern reputation. In fact, he firmly believed that simple meals provided as much joy as opulent ones, and saw extravagant desire as a surefire happiness-squisher: 'Do no spoil what you have by desiring what you have not.'

"Companionship on the other hand, he regarded as vital: 'Of all the things which wisdom provides to make us entirely happy, much the greatest is the possession of friendship.' Epicurus thought people should never eat alone, and should live close to a circle of friends who would nourish each other's minds, help each other in daily life, and support each other in times of struggle. He candidly described friendship as something which starts from a point of need, or from the hope of mutual benefit, but then grows into sheer pleasure at having the other person in one's life. He also viewed friendship without some element of mutual need as being somewhat vacuous.

"Not one for merely bandying lofty ideas around, Epicurus created The Garden, a sanctuary outside Athens where those interested in studying his philosophy (including women -- what would the neighbors say!) could live together by the Epicurean principles. Following his dreams obviously worked out well for him, as despite developing nasty kidney stones that made urination impossible in his old age, he apparently never complained about his suffering, and even wrote a letter to a friend on his last day on earth that described his mental state as 'blissful.'"

Under an image of one of the busts is the caption:

"Come on, look at those svelte cheekbones and tell us this wasn't a man who needed nothing more than some watered wine and barley cakes to have a good time."

Thoughts:

This all is no where near as stereotyped or ascetic as I've read in other places, including academic papers.

I'm not sure where they got the three things, but I don't necessarily disagree. The "freedom" is implied by his setting his Garden outside the city walls of Athens and not teaching in public. Time for contemplation is supported by the "wise one enjoys contemplation more than others" and other similar textual references including "mediate on these day and night with a friend."

I think they may misunderstand his position with the "extravagant desire as a surefire happiness-squisher." However, they did say *desires* here and not pleasures, and as Godfrey has pointed out, desires and pleasures are NOT the same thing. We also have Dr. Austin's book to thank for a much better explanation of "extravagant" pleasures.

The picture caption with the "watered wine and barley cakes" if fine by me. The Greeks *did* water their wine, and Epicurus DID eat barley cakes. He also experimented with - oh, let's just call it intermittent fasting because that's what it was... but **Experimented** not lived that ascetically all the time. I'm still trying bake edible barley cakes myself, but I don't use MY experiments as good examples of what Epicurus ate.

All in all, better than I hoped for. Not perfect by any means, but someone reading this would come away with a "better" perspective on Epicurus than most places!

Sort of gives a whole deeper context to "Pluck the day" Carpe diem.

Quote from Pacatus

PIE root *bhrug- "to enjoy,"

Always a fan of etymonline and PIE, too!

Check out..

*bhrug- | Meaning of root *bhrug- by etymonline

*BHRUG- Meaning: "to enjoy," with derivatives referring to agricultural products.It forms all or part of: brook (v.) "to… See origin and meaning of *bhrug-.

www.etymonline.com

I *think* the bh- could also have evolved into an F or V sound, which is why there's frui... etc. in that entry.

Quote from Cassius

Strictly speaking I don't have any problem with "you only live once" but I gather the connotations of recklessness are top in everyone's minds.

Prudent YOLO? Frugally YOLO?

I am really thinking I need to get my own copy of this book.

As I'm listening to the library's audiobook in my car, I keep thinking "yep, yep, that's good, oh, that's straight out of Epicurus... Good...." and so on. I can't take notes and I don't really want to go through the aggravation of doing it with the audiobook.

I'm currently 27% of the way through and really haven't heard anything off-putting or even much if anything outside what Epicurus would be writing in the 21st century. Granted, Rucker doesn't get into epistemology or physics, but the book isn't designed that way.

So, review so far continues to be