1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
Everywhere
  • Everywhere
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Charles
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Posts by Charles

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Paul Thyry (Baron D'Holbach / Mirabaud) - French / German Sympathizer With Some Epicurean Ideas

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2023 at 1:02 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    It seems clear from this chapter that D'Holbach has deviated from Epicurus on the matter of "free will""

    http://www.ftarchives.net/holbach/system/a11.htm

    Last paragraph of that chapter:

    Quote

    The false ideas he has formed to himself upon free-agency, are in general thus founded: there are certain events which he judges necessary; either because he sees they are effects that are constantly, are invariably linked to certain causes, which nothing seems to prevent; or because he believes he has discovered the chain of causes and effects that is put in play to produce those events: whilst he contemplates as contingent, other events, of whose causes he is ignorant; the concatenation of which he does not perceive; with whose mode of acting he is unacquainted: but in Nature, where every thing is connected by one common bond, there exists no effect without a cause. In the moral as well as in the physical world, every thing that happens is a necessary consequence of causes, either visible or concealed; which are, of necessity, obliged to act after their peculiar essences. In man, free-agency is nothing more than necessity contained within himself.


    I don't have my sources on hand and I'm currently at work. But the conclusion I had with most of my readings of these middle Enlightenment era figures from France and Germany is that the despite the enduring popularity of Lucretius and the increasing anti-clerical sentiment, the rise of this "billiard board" model can be attributed to the profound influence that Newton had on physics and mathematics. We see a general rise in the belief of mechanistic determinism among these Enlightenment Epicureans, most prominently in La Mettrie.

    On another note, the "riddle" showing up in Holbach is interesting. I don't know when Laertius was properly introduced, but one of La Mettrie's peers in the court of Frederick the Great owned and cited his copy of Lives and Opinions concerning Epicurus. Perhaps a foggy timeline of Lucretius became conflated with Epicurus' own time.

  • August 16, 2023 - Wednesday Night Zoom - VS 20 & 21

    • Charles
    • August 16, 2023 at 11:51 AM

    I'll try to make it tonight, though I have a happy hour to go to after work.

  • Wednesday Night Zoom - Studying the Vatican Sayings (Overview) - Winter/Spring 2024

    • Charles
    • July 5, 2023 at 2:24 PM

    I wasn't able to make it to the Monday Happy hour because of a small emergency, however I'll be here tonight.

  • Was Epicurus Sexually Active?

    • Charles
    • February 23, 2023 at 7:26 PM
    Quote from Pacatus

    I hasten to say that I have no moral qualms or objections whatsoever. I would suspect that friendship was also part of any such relationships. But I have not been able to find any confirming sources. Has anyone else?

    I haven't been able to find any concrete source on this. Though there are some suggestions or allusions that perhaps he had some relation in one way or another with Pythocles, whether that's in bad faith or not is hard to say given the nature of Plutarch.

    Although it wouldn't surprise me, I wouldn't make the same claim as Wilson. The best we can say is "maybe he did."

  • We Need A Game Show With A Lightning Round Question: "Happiness or Pleasure? - Why?"

    • Charles
    • February 3, 2023 at 1:00 PM

    Perhaps we're looking at it the wrong way. Pleasure by most people will either be the virtue of swine or cite Nozick's pleasure machine when confronted with the goal of pleasure as a defining force and factor in life. Regardless, I don't there is a concise and clear statement, at least not yet.

  • We Need A Game Show With A Lightning Round Question: "Happiness or Pleasure? - Why?"

    • Charles
    • February 3, 2023 at 9:07 AM

    Maybe instead of "both" we ought to equate them with each other with "is".

  • Is There Anything in Epicurean Physics or Epistemology That Would Prevent Epicurus From Generally Endorsing Aristippus / The Cyreniacs?

    • Charles
    • February 2, 2023 at 2:52 PM

    Im busy at the moment but my understanding is that it came to epistemic differences about matter and time. To the Cyrenaics there was only the present, thus pleasures here and now mattered the most. Hiram and I spoke about it a few years back but I'd have to dig for that.

  • Welcome Adrian!

    • Charles
    • January 31, 2023 at 4:25 PM
    Quote from Adrian

    Is there a recommended translation of the works of Epicurus? - I tend to use the 1964 Russel Geer version.

    The Cyril Bailey translation is a solid pick for reading the Diogenes Laertius book on Epicurus. Otherwise there are also the Peter St Andre translations, the anonymous Epicurism site translations. Be sure to check out Cicero's On Ends and Lucretius as well.

  • Major (In the Sense of Major Publication) Review of Emily Austin's "Living for Pleasure"

    • Charles
    • January 26, 2023 at 4:39 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    What? "Rumination" is not generally a negative word, is it?

    Like Todd, I always took it to be neutral. At best it's the meandering stream of conscious, with some merit. At worst it's delusion. I find it useful to rethink familiar paths and conclusions in an almost scholastic manner.

  • Profile Picture Icons

    • Charles
    • January 23, 2023 at 4:34 PM
    Quote from Don

    My only hesitation is that the picture has - to me - an almost Jesus vibe with the orientation of the face and the long hair. I didn't notice the pig until cassius pointed it out.

    To be fair, Che Guevara does have a loose resemblance to Jesus.

  • "A Socio-Psychological and Semiotic Analysis of Epicurus' Portrait" by Bernard Frischer

    • Charles
    • January 23, 2023 at 9:21 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    Your reaction to "hero worship" is very common, but ultimately I think that the concern is unjustified. Epicurean philosophy teaches you to question authority and demand answers based on evidence, and it doesn't lead in the direction of general cultism for anyone who thinks about it.

    I think it's worth heeding some amount of caution over this. There's always been the trend of venerating past philosophers, and that is still true today. However, were it not for the insistence of the Epicurean school and of Epicurus himself on carrying his image, we would have a dearth of objects and depictions. It lends a much-needed certainty and confidence to an otherwise fragmented system.

    The issue instead, lies in our usage of his image. Carrying around copies of jewelry that once existed among the schools (different schools often had signifiers ala the cloak and staff of the cynics) is acceptable, and so are keeping busts of notable Epicureans, in my view. There are others too, such as the commissioned art of Epicurus breaking his chains on the front page of the site. It's when we get into objects such as clothing and votive candles when it starts to become cult-like.

    Pair this with our stringent need/belief to retain the classical elements of the philosophy and to not hoist eclectic principles on the same pedestal of Epicurus, and the issue becomes more apparent.

  • Welcome Plantpierogi!

    • Charles
    • December 30, 2022 at 9:14 AM

    Welcome Plantpierogi!

  • Epicurus and the Pompeii Mosaic

    • Charles
    • December 27, 2022 at 9:03 AM

    The two figures on the left strike me as Plato & Socrates respectively. Although that's hardly based off of anything. It's too obscure to make any definitive judgement, whether it represents most of the schools much like the School of Athens, or perhaps it's not depicting any one specific philosopher at all.

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 8:40 PM
    Quote from Todd

    I don't see any references to babies or animals in either the PD or the Letter to Menoeceus. Of course that doesn't prove Epicurus didn't use the cradle argument. But the case remains open!

    The best source for this is actually from Diogenes Laertius.

    Quote

    A further difference from the Cyrenaics: they thought that bodily pains were worse than those of the soul, and pointed out that offenses are visited by bodily punishment. But Epicurus held that the pains of the soul are worse, for the flesh is only troubled for the moment, but the soul for past, present, and future. In the same way the pleasures of the soul are greater. As proof that pleasure is the end, he points out that all living creatures as soon as they are born take delight in pleasure, but resist pain by a natural impulse apart from reason. Therefore we avoid pain by instinct, just as Heracles, when he is being devoured by the shirt of Nessus, cries aloud,

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 12:42 PM

    I'm approaching all of this from the perspective of proselytization. The issue is with the definition of pleasure itself, so, as to avoid a word-game, it makes more sense to ground it into something purely Epicurean to avoid a lot of the "baggage" the word will inevitably face. A similar example would be the word "indifference" in the context of Stoicism. It takes on its own meaning with its own contextual points and definitions tied to source material.

    I realize this may be going a bit off topic and is simultaneously opening a large can of worms, but it might be better to recuperate the idea of pleasure rather than building a theory of pleasure. By this, when we say "pleasure" we refer to choices and avoidances, prudence, the categorization of desires, the rose problem, etc. In doing so, our usage and treatment in such a different context might encourage others to reconsider their understanding of pleasure, leading to an easier comprehension. Consider it the wyrmwood before the honey, in this case, if you will.

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 12:32 PM
    Quote from Charles

    Perhaps it's less "happiness and contentment through my free will and contemplation" and more "pleasure is the active and passive sensation I experience from my study of nature and rejection of the supernatural on top of making choices and avoidances according to my desires."

    I'm reminded of a weekly zoom call we had where Mathitis Kipouros spoke about a peer of his where his [camotero's] attempt to teach him about the limits and variety of pleasures was met with utter confusion. His peer inadvertently spoke like an Epicurean and presumably needed Epicurean advice but the gap could not be bridged because of their different understanding of pleasure.

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 12:26 PM
    Quote from Don

    Do those pleasures I have listed lead to a life of secure pleasure [...]

    They would certainly believe so. Though in some respects, maybe they have a point, not in their rhetoric attached to such lifestyles, but acting in according to their desires in their own non-Epicurean way.

    I don't believe pleasure can be isolated as a sole concept in the philosophy without an extremely vague definition attached to it, let alone through comparison. Instead, it should be tied to ethics and the concepts in the PD's and such. Perhaps it's less "happiness and contentment through my free will and contemplation" and more "pleasure is the active and passive sensation I experience from my study of nature and rejection of the supernatural on top of making choices and avoidances according to my desires."

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 12:00 PM
    Quote from Todd

    Pleasure could be defined as what anyone chooses.

    The same could be said about desire. I find it to be extremely reductive and almost gimmicky to reduce a lot of other ways of life and decisions on the grounds of "Oh you were still pursuing pleasure or acting on your desires; you just didn't know it." Because if that were truly the case, then the affected person would simply keep to their ways and would stay unswayed.

  • Perspectives On "Proving" That Pleasure is "The Good"

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 11:06 AM

    I've been searching for ways to strengthen the infant argument for some time now. I think you're correct in casting scrutiny upon its value in instructing others. One of the largest hurdles of speaking to others about the philosophy is trying to get someone to recognize the value of pleasure and why it shouldn't be shunned.

    We may very well take to pointing to nature as "proof" but to someone unconvinced or highly skeptical, we're pointing to infantile bodily reactions and processes, something not wholly convincing in itself.

  • "Epicurus, Father of the Enlightenment" Article Review

    • Charles
    • December 20, 2022 at 10:32 AM

    A pretty decent article if a bit biased, but at least those biases are plainly visible. However, you'd think a libertarian would be keen to hammer down the notion of justice and the social contract. The two philosophies in that regard have considerable overlap with each other.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      601
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Thanks 2
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      1.4k
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 9

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    2. Replies
      9
      Views
      483
      9
    3. Cassius

      June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    1. New Translation of Epicurus' Works 1

      • Thanks 2
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:50 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      447
      1
    3. Cassius

      June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    1. Epicurean Emporium 9

      • Like 3
      • Eikadistes
      • January 25, 2025 at 10:35 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:37 PM
    2. Replies
      9
      Views
      1.9k
      9
    3. Eikadistes

      June 16, 2025 at 3:37 PM

Latest Posts

  • Articles concerning Epicurus and political involvement

    sanantoniogarden June 29, 2025 at 9:54 PM
  • Welcome Samsara73

    sanantoniogarden June 29, 2025 at 9:25 PM
  • Episode 288 - Tusculan Disputations Part 3 - "Will The Wise Man Feel Grief?" Not Yet Recorded

    Cassius June 29, 2025 at 3:41 PM
  • Special Emphasis On "Emotions" In Lucretius Today Podcast / Tusculan Disputations - Should Everyone Aspire To Emulate Mr. Spock?

    Cassius June 29, 2025 at 3:39 PM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Cassius June 29, 2025 at 4:09 AM
  • Welcome Ceiltechbladhm

    ceiltechbladhm June 28, 2025 at 8:46 PM
  • "Apollodorus of Athens"

    Bryan June 28, 2025 at 2:56 PM
  • Locating the proper forum for posting questions

    Bryan June 28, 2025 at 2:28 PM
  • Prolepsis of the gods

    DaveT June 28, 2025 at 11:59 AM
  • Sunday Zoom - June 29, 2025 - 12:30 PM ET - Topic: Nothing Can Be Created From Nothing

    Cassius June 28, 2025 at 6:57 AM

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design