1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
Everywhere
  • Everywhere
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

EpicureanFriends is a community of real people dedicated to the study and promotion of Classical Epicurean Philosophy. We offer what no encyclopedia, AI chatbot, textbook, or general philosophy forum can provide — genuine teamwork among people committed to rediscovering and restoring the actual teachings of Epicurus, unadulterated by Stoicism, Skepticism, Supernatural Religion, Humanism, or other incompatible philosophies.

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Godfrey
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Posts by Godfrey

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius  

  • Phaedo and prolepses

    • Godfrey
    • October 17, 2020 at 3:33 PM

    Prolepses are one of the theories of Epicurus that have very little remaining in his extant writings. Recently I gave Plato’s Phaedo a quick read, and one thing that struck me was this passage. The context of this argument is in direct contrast to Epicurus’ universe of atoms and void, and similarly to his theory that the “soul” begins and ends at birth. Which would lead one to the conclusion that Epicurus was probably looking closely at this from time to time as he formulated his counter argument. This particular portion appears to relate to the prolepses, and it is part of a “proof” that we have an eternal soul:


    Then before we began to see or hear or perceive in any way, we must have had a knowledge of absolute equality, or we could not have referred to that standard the equals which are derived from the senses?— for to that they all aspire, and of that they fall short.

    And if we acquired this knowledge before we were born, and were born having the use of it, then we also knew before we were born and at the instant of birth not only the equal or the greater or the less, but all other ideas; for we are not speaking only of equality, but of beauty, goodness, justice, holiness, and of all which we stamp with the name of essence in the dialectical process, both when we ask and when we answer questions. Of all this we may certainly affirm that we acquired the knowledge before birth?

    But if, after having acquired, we have not forgotten what in each case we acquired, then we must always have come into life having knowledge, and shall always continue to know as long as life lasts— for knowing is the acquiring and retaining knowledge and not forgetting. Is not forgetting, Simmias, just the losing of knowledge?

    But if the knowledge which we acquired before birth was lost by us at birth, and if afterwards by the use of the senses we recovered what we previously knew, will not the process which we call learning be a recovering of the knowledge which is natural to us, and may not this be rightly termed recollection?

    So much is clear— that when we perceive something, either by the help of sight, or hearing, or some other sense, from that perception we are able to obtain a notion of some other thing like or unlike which is associated with it but has been forgotten. Whence, as I was saying, one of two alternatives follows:— either we had this knowledge at birth, and continued to know through life; or, after birth, those who are said to learn only remember, and learning is simply recollection.

    Then, Simmias, our souls must also have existed without bodies before they were in the form of man, and must have had intelligence.

    Unless indeed you suppose, Socrates, that these notions are given us at the very moment of birth; for this is the only time which remains.

    Yes, my friend, but if so, when do we lose them? for they are not in us when we are born— that is admitted. Do we lose them at the moment of receiving them, or if not at what other time?

    No, Socrates, I perceive that I was unconsciously talking nonsense.

    Then may we not say, Simmias, that if, as we are always repeating, there is an absolute beauty, and goodness, and an absolute essence of all things; and if to this, which is now discovered to have existed in our former state, we refer all our sensations, and with this compare them, finding these ideas to be pre-existent and our inborn possession— then our souls must have had a prior existence, but if not, there would be no force in the argument? There is the same proof that these ideas must have existed before we were born, as that our souls existed before we were born; and if not the ideas, then not the souls.

    Edited from Plato: The Complete Works (31 Books) (p. 767-770). Titan Read Classics. Kindle Edition.


    Does this passage add any clarity to how we can understand the prolepses? If we examine the opposite of everything Plato describes here, can we replicate a part of Epicurus’ process of conceiving the prolepses?

    I see in here a potential source for Diogenes Laertius’ “cow explanation” of prolepses as things learned from repeated exposure, which would seem to reduce its credibility. Also the eidola would relate to this, and DeWitt’s idea of a prolepsis as an embryonic notion or sketch of an idea. Then of course there’s the fact that we have modern neuroscience to consider once we reach some sort of understanding of Epicurus’ conception. I haven’t had a chance to digest the full implications yet!

  • Episode Thirty-Nine - The Mind And Spirit Are Not Supernatural But Parts of A Man Just Like The Head and Foot

    • Godfrey
    • October 11, 2020 at 9:43 AM
    Quote

    ...nothing makes a thing beautiful but the presence and participation of beauty in whatever way or manner obtained; for as to the manner I am uncertain, but I stoutly contend that by beauty all beautiful things become beautiful.

    Seriously?

  • The Dangers of Misdirected Increase of Knowledge

    • Godfrey
    • October 10, 2020 at 9:46 PM

    Great; thanks for the list Cassius!

  • The Dangers of Misdirected Increase of Knowledge

    • Godfrey
    • October 10, 2020 at 5:09 PM

    This discussion got me interested in Lucian; I read A True Story last night as I've been meaning to do so for quite a while. I think I'll give Hermotimus a read today: much more enjoyable than Phaedo! ;)

  • Can Emotions be Trusted?

    • Godfrey
    • October 7, 2020 at 8:54 PM

    Continuing on the tangent, the article that I linked to at the beginning of the thread The Polytheism of the Epicureans is a good and fairly brief presentation of the realist viewpoint. I've tended to follow the idealist take, but this got me thinking...:/

  • Can Emotions be Trusted?

    • Godfrey
    • October 7, 2020 at 4:12 PM

    In the dialog there's a "thumbnail" button to place it in the message like this.

  • Can Emotions be Trusted?

    • Godfrey
    • October 7, 2020 at 4:08 PM

    Great discussion!

    @Susan Hill I add images from my phone or tablet using the paper clip icon (next to the emoji icon) below where I'm entering text and above the "reply" and "preview" buttons. It opens a dialog for attaching files; there is a maximum file size which you need to be aware of.

    Images

    • pigbrain.jpg
      • 155.01 kB
      • 1,620 × 1,079
      • 1
  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 6, 2020 at 12:47 PM

    Timely news:

    https://www.latimes.com/science/story/…and-andrea-ghez

  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 4, 2020 at 7:58 PM

    ^^:D

  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 4, 2020 at 6:39 PM

    Regarding infinity, he begins talking about it around 1 hour 13 minutes in the video.

    All I can say is... I'm going to take a nap now.

  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 4, 2020 at 4:29 PM

    Thanks Susan! Of course I'm not as smart as Penrose 8o but to me, infinitely small is different from infinite in extent. One Epicurean argument is against infinite divisibility of atoms, but I'm not even sure if this is addressing that argument. Another Epicurean argument is that the universe is infinite in extent, but it doesn't seem like he's addressing that argument. He mentions infinities of different sizes, but again I think that applies to number but not extent (?).

    I started watching that video but got interrupted; I'll have to get back to it at some point and try to catch his argument if I can.

  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 4, 2020 at 4:06 PM
    Quote

    The infinity of a universe can be observed from without. It is only infinite from within that universe. You can have infinities of different sizes.

    Huh? By the standard definition this makes no sense: what's he talking about?

  • Why Does Stoicism Seem to Be More Popular Than Epicureanism, Especially In England?

    • Godfrey
    • October 3, 2020 at 6:34 PM

    Here's the pdf; I mistakenly uploaded it in another thread.

    Files

    AppliedPositivePsychologySymposium_2016_essays_114pp.pdf 1.34 MB – 2 Downloads
  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 3, 2020 at 6:31 PM

    Yes he does. This particular book is a history from Democritus to the year the book was written, and quantum theory is included in that. He has many other books and it could be that another one deals with it in greater depth for those interested. His basic premise in all of his books seems to me to be that modern science refutes the belief in the supernatural.

  • Responding To A Video Entitled: "Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism" - Collecting Arguments Against Anti-Epicurean Uses of Quantum Physics Theories

    • Godfrey
    • October 3, 2020 at 6:19 PM

    Victor Stenger, at least in God and the Atom, seems quite favorable to Epicurus. I posted a review of sorts: God and the Atom by Victor Stenger: a very brief review. That strained the limits of my non-scientific background. 8o

  • Episode Two - The Achievement of Epicurus

    • Godfrey
    • October 3, 2020 at 5:56 PM

    Here's the pdf from the expired link above.

    Files

    AppliedPositivePsychologySymposium_2016_essays_114pp.pdf 1.34 MB – 0 Downloads
  • Episode Two - The Achievement of Epicurus

    • Godfrey
    • October 3, 2020 at 4:17 PM

    It's a fascinating and involved question as to what Epicurus thought of religion and the gods. There are some threads here addressing the "idealist" vs the "realist" viewpoints. These basically correspond to the view that Epicurus considered the gods to be a mental construct for contemplation vs the view that he considered the gods to be real. The thread that Don linked to above has an essay that presents a case for the realist interpretation, which I found thought provoking.

    As mentioned in the essay, the prolepses are intricately intertwined with the conception of the gods, along with the idea that we know of the gods from extremely fine particles that they emit. These two subjects (gods and prolepses) just might be the least understood ideas in EP.

    The issue of how we interpret these ideas today adds yet another layer of complexity. On recent threads we've discussed justice and truth as prolepses; are the gods a prolepsis as Epicurus apparently states? Today many (if not most) of us are indoctrinated from childhood into believing in a single god. Prolepses, however, are "pre-conceptual" and more primitive, and to the best of my limited knowledge, primitive societies believed in multiple gods (although not of the Epicurean kind). To me there seems to be a prolepsis of awe/wonder at the immensity of the universe, but does this translate to a prolepsis of gods? Didn't primitive gods function as explanations of the mysteries of existence? And didn't Epicurus, and subsequent science, dispel many of these mysteries?

    But I'm rambling....

  • "The Polytheism of the Epicureans" by Paul T. M. Jackson

    • Godfrey
    • October 2, 2020 at 9:13 PM

    This paper hit my inbox this week, and it's a worthwhile read presenting a case for the "realist" interpretation of the Epicurean gods. It also has some discussion of the prolepses, as is appropriate when considering the gods:

    The Polytheism of the Epicureans

    However the reason that I'm posting this is because of some of the references included. On pages 30-31, he includes the text of a letter purportedly written by Epicurus and found in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri [(wikipedia) and (google books)], with which I'm totally unfamiliar. The source of his reference is an essay by A.J. Festugière, ‘Épicure et ses Dieux,’ in a 1946 collection Mythes et Religions, edited by P.E. Couchoud, publisher Presse Universitaires de France-Paris. Apparently this is translated into English in Epicurus and His Gods by C.W. Chilton.

    In addition to thoughts on the article, is anybody familiar with any of these sources? I'm curious where else they might lead....

  • Is [X] a waste of time?

    • Godfrey
    • October 1, 2020 at 4:14 PM

    "Whiplash" really is a satisfying movie on many levels: nuance despite all the drama, well written, well acted. I second the recommendation! :thumbup::thumbup:

    I've actually been thinking of taking up the blues harmonica as a form of breath work. Much simpler than the bagpipes, but I'll be taking into account the above comments. Very timely :/

  • Is [X] a waste of time?

    • Godfrey
    • October 1, 2020 at 1:22 AM

    Personally, although some games sound interesting to me I've never been very interested in playing them. When my kids were little I tried some of their games but was always put off by the open ended nature of the games. Back then I didn't have the time to get sucked into a game; now I prefer to have some idea of the time commitment before I get involved in just about any entertainment. Even if I binge watch a show, I know beforehand how many episodes there are and how many I might watch in one sitting.

    So I guess for me it comes down to a personal time commitment. I've spent many years working digitally and am all too familiar with the phenomenon of getting sucked into the screen and not coming out for hours. There's a certain pleasure to that sense of "hyper-focus," but it can also be damaging. One of the benefits of stumbling into Epicurus' garden, for me, has been in re-connecting to the pleasures of the big picture.

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

Here is a list of suggested search strategies:

  • Website Overview page - clickable links arrranged by cards.
  • Forum Main Page - list of forums and subforums arranged by topic. Threads are posted according to relevant topics. The "Uncategorized subforum" contains threads which do not fall into any existing topic (also contains older "unfiled" threads which will soon be moved).
  • Search Tool - icon is located on the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere."
  • Search By Key Tags - curated to show frequently-searched topics.
  • Full Tag List - an alphabetical list of all tags.

Resources

  1. Getting Started At EpicureanFriends
  2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
  3. The Major Doctrines of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  4. Introductory Videos
  5. Wiki
  6. Lucretius Today Podcast
    1. Podcast Episode Guide
  7. Key Epicurean Texts
    1. Chart Of Key Quotes
    2. Outline Of Key Quotes
    3. Side-By-Side Diogenes Laertius X (Bio And All Key Writings of Epicurus)
    4. Side-By-Side Lucretius - On The Nature Of Things
    5. Side-By-Side Torquatus On Ethics
    6. Side-By-Side Velleius on Divinity
    7. Lucretius Topical Outline
    8. Usener Fragment Collection
  8. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. FAQ Discussions
  9. Full List of Forums
    1. Physics Discussions
    2. Canonics Discussions
    3. Ethics Discussions
    4. All Recent Forum Activities
  10. Image Gallery
  11. Featured Articles
  12. Featured Blog Posts
  13. Quiz Section
  14. Activities Calendar
  15. Special Resource Pages
  16. File Database
  17. Site Map
    1. Home

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?

    Todd May 17, 2026 at 10:01 PM
  • Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!

    wbernys May 17, 2026 at 7:54 PM
  • Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded

    Cassius May 17, 2026 at 12:20 PM
  • New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled

    Cassius May 16, 2026 at 9:22 PM
  • Discussion of New Article - In An AI World, The Epicurean View of Knowledge Is More Important Than Ever

    Cassius May 16, 2026 at 3:53 PM
  • Sunday May 17, 2026 - Zoom Discussion 12:30 PM EST - Lucretius Book 1 - 483

    Cassius May 16, 2026 at 10:16 AM
  • Welcome Griffin!

    Griffin May 16, 2026 at 10:12 AM
  • Should the Study of Modern Psychology and Positive Psychology be Encouraged?

    Don May 16, 2026 at 6:09 AM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Cassius May 16, 2026 at 4:05 AM
  • Diogenes of Oinoanda Inscription - NEW Complete Translation By MFS - March 2026

    Pacatus May 15, 2026 at 12:17 PM

Frequently Used Tags

In addition to posting in the appropriate forums, participants are encouraged to reference the following tags in their posts:

  • #Physics
    • #Atomism
    • #Gods
    • #Images
    • #Infinity
    • #Eternity
    • #Life
    • #Death
  • #Canonics
    • #Knowledge
    • #Scepticism
  • #Ethics

    • #Pleasure
    • #Pain
    • #Engagement
    • #EpicureanLiving
    • #Happiness
    • #Virtue
      • #Wisdom
      • #Temperance
      • #Courage
      • #Justice
      • #Honesty
      • #Faith (Confidence)
      • #Suavity
      • #Consideration
      • #Hope
      • #Gratitude
      • #Friendship



Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.25
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design