As an addendum, I was about to start a thread on PD1 and gratitude. In researching, I found this thread and it seems that not only is my question answered here but that it also ties up a loose end in the thread.

From Don in the initial post:

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Being affected by anger as a sickness or weakness makes sense, but why would being affected by gratitude be a sign of weakness? One conjecture would be that it would show a lack of self-reliance / αυτάρκεια.

The word "gratitude" seems problematic as, to me, one who is blessed would experience a general sense of gratitude. Denying gratitude seems quite un-Epicurean! The wiki translation in post #15 gets to a more accurate sense of the doctrine in my opinion: "indebtedness," or "favors" as they translate it in their first pass.

That was probably me... I posted on it here: Thoughts on Reverence, Awe, and Epicurean Piety. I don't remember the details of the article although I do remember that it really got me thinking about the subject.

From the article that Susan linked to in #18:

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But we know that young babies are also busy little scientists scanning, analyzing, and making sense of their environment.

This could explain babies' sustained rapt attention.

Regarding awe, as they say at least once in every TV show, "it's complicated." Feelings and emotions are slippery terms, which is why "reactions" might be a good translation of pathe (Don, did you suggest that?) There is definitely a reactive element to emotions: what you feel (there's that word ) right away in response to sensations. I'd say that the pathe are the reactive parts of emotions, and that they are felt as either pleasure or pain. A particular emotion can be either painful or pleasant. So emotions and pathe are intertwined in some way it seems, but putting it into words gets confusing.

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I keep going back to those experiments with infants and toddlers on fair play, "justice", etc. We humans seem too have an innate sense of justice and fair play as well as awe and amazement. That's where my analysis of the prolepses starts.

Don, that is a good place to start. Taking the viewpoint of prolepses as a "faculty that disposes us organize what we perceive..." then justice and fair play seem to be a way of connecting our sensations with our feelings. An infant sees someone do something and then feels good, this is "organized" as a perception of justice.

Awe seems more complex I think.... Is it a strong emotion? This brings up two points: aren't emotions "components" of pleasure and pain? Also emotions can diminish over time (one can get jaded to what once caused a strong reaction) but it seems like prolepses tend to sharpen over time.

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...I would probably use words like a "faculty" that "disposes us to organize what we perceive" in ways that are helpful to our forming of mental images that we then store in our memories and use as operators for further analysis.

Cassius, that's a good description to me, if we could just find a nice, concise way of saying that! But as you say it is just a start. That's one reason that I think that grappling with the gods (as it were) is a fruitful exercise.

Oops I see I cross posted! My last post is referring to post #18 from Susan.

Susan could you clarify this? One does see these things, so are you saying that that makes spirituality innate? I would say that attraction to mystery is innate and possibly part of the process of "pattern recognition" or "anticipations," and that for some people that attraction can motivate them toward attentiveness to certain patterns. But to me, "spirituality" is quite a broad and somewhat vague term and that makes it difficult for me to wrap my head around.

As an aside, there's a science fiction book that takes a completely opposite look at immortals: The Boat of a Million Years, by Poul Anderson. It follows the lives of a few people who, for some unexplained reason, were born immortal. This only became evident to them as they stopped aging and outlived their peers, their children, etc. The drama of the book comes from how they have to interact with society and, eventually, with each other. They're pretty much the opposite of PD1, which makes it an interesting read and an obtuse way to meditate on the Epicurean gods. Also a tonic when thinking about the gods reaches a point of brain freeze!

To me it's important when considering the gods to keep anticipations in mind.

Going a little freeform here.... Consider the anticipations as "pattern recognition." The obvious implication of this is recognizing patterns, but the less obvious (and here I'm speculating ) implication is the urge to solving mysteries, which at some level is recognizing patterns. Nature and life are full of mystery (which of course we should celebrate), and to me it is the urge to solving mysteries of nature which is the true anticipation of the gods. That seems to be the main common denominator between polytheistic, monotheistic, animistic, human, "primitive" and "advanced" conceptions of gods. To me, the idea that the gods speak Greek or are individuals or that there is one all-powerful God, when seen as an anticipation, is evidence of the effect of cultural norms on pattern recognition which in turn had an effect on Epicurus' ideas of the gods. Visions of the gods can come from exposure to the myths just as visions of the dead can come from memories of the living.

It's also of great use when considering the anticipations to keep the gods in mind.

For some reason 8 followed by a ) shows up as . Is there a ghost in the machine?

1) Follow pleasure.

2) To follow pleasure is to follow the faculties.

3) Knowledge comes through three faculties: senses, pattern recognition, and feelings of pleasure and pain.

4) Balance the three faculties.

5) Regard reason with suspicion if it is not grounded in the faculties.

6) Sharpen the senses, increase the input.

7) Maximize the quantity of input.

Scrutinize all input.

9) Clarity of input improves overall function.

10) Pattern recognition is non-conscious cognition.

11) Pattern recognition is a bridge from input to reaction.

12) Open to your intuition.

13) Observe the guidance of your pleasures and pains.

14) Every pleasure is good, but not every desire: don't confuse the impulse with the faculty.

15) Understand the motivation and consequences of all desires.

16) Distinguish between utility and vanity.

17) Every pleasure is good, but not always chosen.

18) Every pain is bad, but not always avoided.

19) The limit of pleasure is the absence of pain, but pursuing a negative will not lead to a positive.

20) Pain is a faculty, experience it in its immediate fullness.

21) Reflect on your fear, grief and hate, and how they prevent reaching the goal.

22) Many pains are more than balanced by pleasure over time.

23) Maintain attention to present experience and perception.

24) Understand the implications of science.

25) All there is is composed of matter-energy and void, as described by physics.

26) The extent of the void is infinite.

27) The quantity of matter-energy is infinite.

28) Matter-energy is uncreatable and indestructible.

29) All there is is infinite in time.

30) Solid bodies are either compounds of matter-energy particles or simple matter-energy particles.

31) Compound bodies have emergent properties described by physics.

32) Life exists throughout the universe.

33) Evolution takes patience.

34) Contemplate how you came to be born at this time, in this corner of the universe.

35) The faculties are emergent properties of living matter.

36) Free will is an emergent property of living matter.

37) There is nothing supernatural, no ideal realm, no “higher truth”.

38) God will not punish you or save you.

39) The soul is corporeal and begins and ends with the body.

40) In this I live, and move, and have my being.

41) Regularly experience awe.

42) Live right, don't fear death, prepare to die.

43) Living pleasurably requires living with prudence and virtue, and vice versa.

44) At all critical times connect your actions to the natural goal of life.

45) Success is abiding pleasure, happiness, contentment, peace.

46) The goal is not neutral.

47) Find pleasure in the journey.

48) There is pleasure in self-sufficiency, safety and friendship.

49) Periodically bask in joy.

50) "Truth" and "Justice" arise from pattern recognition and are not absolutes.

51) Justice is a covenant.

52) Verification and lack of evidence to the contrary establishes truth, and vice versa.

53) Carve out time for a hobby.

54) Young or old, there’s no time like the present.

55) Life is the greatest good: practice gratitude.

As has come up in another thread, here is my list of pleasure slogans. This is most definitely a work in progress!!!

The idea was inspired by the form, but not the content, of the Tibetan Buddhist “lojong slogans.” This is intended as both a learning tool and a practice tool.

The slogans should be such that studying them in order would provide a fairly complete introduction to EP

To do this, the slogans would need to be accompanied by relevant cites from the texts, as well as perhaps some commentary or questions to serve as an additional guide.

As a practice tool, I’m finding that for me they’re best used by randomly picking one and “living with it” for a day, a few days, or as long as the slogan seems relevant. I’ve just been thinking about the chosen slogan as it pops into my head throughout the day. Other, possibly better options are to track down relevant texts (which would be valuable but I just can’t seem to put my mind to it) or, if one enjoys journaling, to write one’s thoughts about the chosen slogan.

Regarding this particular list, all of the slogans are intentionally short, in modern English and most of them are not taken directly from the texts. They are divided between “theory” and “practice.” They’re probably a can of worms in that many of them make sense to me, but possibly not to anybody else. Having said that, I think that having an obscure one now and then stimulates a bit more thought and provides a new way of looking at an idea; at least that works for me. Also certain ones may make no sense at one point but be very useful at another.

I’ve no idea how best to discuss these, which is part of the reason I haven’t broached them earlier. So to open a Pandora’s box, here they are:

I mentioned it in passing a while back. It has lots of possibilities but also is a can of worms; I'll post it in a day or two and we'll see where it goes!

I guess I need to get to work then; it might take a couple of days....

This topic of practices and slogans seems to come up fairly regularly.... For some time now I've been compiling a list of "Epicurean pleasure slogans" to delineate the philosophy and have 50+ at this point. I haven't posted them as they'd need a LOT of work to really be legit, but maybe I'll clean up what I've got and post them sometime soon if that would be of some value.

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So, Epicurus says it's alright to use reason, right? We shouldn't rely on it to rationalize and come up with "ideal" absolutes, but we can use it to assimilate the information from our canonical senses.

Exactly! Reason is a tool, but it's not reliable without reference to the faculties of the canon.

In today's dysfunctional post-truth political realm, "facts" are all about feelings and that's part of the problem. Science, truth and actual facts have been systematically discredited, so that what's left is what you're told and how you feel about it. This is very Platonic and perhaps Aristotlean (I'm not very well versed in Aristotle): that's exactly what the forms, ideal realms and dialectic accomplish by disassociating from objective reality.

In that the Epicurean canon was a response to Plato, it's also a potential solution to today's purposive confusion. The senses, prolepses and feelings, and after these, reason, cover all the bases as to how we determine truth. They are all "corrective" of each other as in the bent oar problem. EP isn't a touchy-feely philosophy but one that uses all of the tools available to us to determine truth and how to live our lives.

At all critical times connect your actions to the natural goal of life.

This just seems appropriate at the moment.

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Moreover, when it comes to meteorological phenomena, one must believe that movements, turnings, eclipses, risings, settings, and related phenomena occur without any [god] helping out and ordaining or being about to ordain [things] and at the same time having complete blessedness and indestructibility; 77. for troubles and concerns and anger and gratitude are not consistent with blessedness, but these things involve weakness and fear and dependence on one’s neighbours. Nor again can they be in possession of blessedness if they [the heavenly bodies] are at the same time balls of fire and adopt these movements by deliberate choice; rather, we must preserve the complete solemnity implied in all the terms applied to such conceptions, so that we do not generate from these terms opinions inconsistent with their solemnity; otherwise, the inconsistency itself will produce the greatest disturbance in our souls. Hence, one must hold the opinion that it is owing to the original inclusion of these compounds in the generation of the cosmos that this regularly recurring cycle too is produced.

Here's the complete paragraph as translated by Inwood and Gerson.

Elayne, nothing wrong with thinking poetically LOL! I think I'll read this book, it looks right on point.