Posts by Godfrey

Elayne, nothing wrong with thinking poetically LOL! I think I'll read this book, it looks right on point.

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For myself, I could even make a case for seeing divinity as desire, the drive for pleasure observed in all creatures with sufficient nervous systems to feel.

Elayne I'm with you on this and would enjoy hearing you make the case if you have the time or inclination. Much of my grasp comes intuitively; I always derive benefit from your science based approach.

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I would love to see more examples of art of any kind that people feel expresses their own lived Epicureanism. It feels very meaningful.

@Susan Hill this is the first that comes to mind in this context:

http://www.fondationlecorbusier.fr/corbuweb/morph…&sysParentId=11

Great questions Don !

The generative force could easily and incorrectly be renamed the Generative Force (or simply The Force ). Obviously I'm still grappling with this, and there's probably a better word or phrase for what I'm trying to describe. It is a purely materialist process. It is how life originally evolved out of inert material, what causes plants to sprout and grow, flowers to bloom and to open and close with the cycle of the sun. It is energy from the sun providing fuel for life. It's whatever it is that takes place when an egg and a sperm develop into a baby. So yes, it has the characteristics of Venus as Lucretius was talking about, but I wouldn't personify it in that way. To a large extent it can be described scientifically, and I wouldn't attribute anything beyond the verifiable to it. "It" isn't even a good word as "it" is, I think more accurately, a series of processes. Where "it" can become an object of piety is exactly where "it" intersects with our individual pleasure, particularly in ways that lead us to experience reverence and awe.

I don't suggest adapting other religions' practices as a rule, for the reasons I mentioned previously. But I have attended Christian services to enjoy the architecture or the music and I can see early Epicureans doing something similar by attending the festivals. So I can understand on some level what was happening historically. But related to what you point out, Greek society was based on city-states and is entirely different from the mega-culture we now live in. I think we need to focus on "studying, understanding and basking in" pleasure and philosophy in like minded company, frankly I don't know how we could productively adapt contemporary communal religious practice of whatever persuasion to EP.

I just finished reading Significance of Worship and Prayer Among the Epicureans on the forum Filebase and it stirred up a flurry of thoughts which I’m putting down here. This is one attempt at distilling and resolving of some of the discussion from Reverence and Awe in Epicurean Philosophy; from the discussion I’m pretty sure several of us are going through a similar process!

Epicurus didn't do away with the gods but felt that he had reasoned out their true nature. Since his reasoning began with the conception of the gods current in his time, and he saw value in religion, he felt no need to reimagine the common worship although he did reinvent the mental content. What follows is me riffing on this idea….

To us living today, the gods of Epicurus’ time are but interesting historical myths. Our challenge then is to undergo the same process of reasoning as Epicurus, but with respect to the idea of the omnipotent god commonly worshipped today. The same critiques apply, but how can we apply EP to arrive at a useful model of piety?

Similarities between Greek and modern god(s): control the affairs of humans; can be influenced through worship, sacrifice, prayer, etc; control the natural world; know the thoughts of humans(?).

Differences: one omnipotent god today v a group of gods in Greece.

The similarities listed above for god(s) were eliminated by Epicurus, to be distilled down to indestructiblity and bliss. But he retained the Greek model of anthropomorphic gods, which has been for the most part discounted by our time. If I was to presume to discover the key idea of the contemporary god, it would be that it is a generative force. I think we would all agree that it isn’t anthropomorphic. So to this idea we would then apply the Epicurean canon, reasoning, and current experimentally verified science.

Epicurean, canonic pleasure, which equates to health and growth, is inherent in the generative force of life, and it is to that which we can connect. And furthermore, it’s indestructible and blissful. But we mustn't add to it anything that is unverifiable by accepted science. Epicurus wrote of his pleasure in studying natural philosophy; that same pleasure is available to us. Studying, understanding and basking in the pleasure inherent in life's generative force, I think, constitutes in broad terms a modern Epicurean "spiritual practice."

From this point Epicurus decided, in his typically radical fashion and for whatever reason, that attending the festivals, etc, was an appropriate form of worship for his "flock." This is as radical as are other parts of his philosophy, in fact it's so radical that I can't see myself following this advice. But if you distill the essence of a current religion to the worship of the generative force, it's easy to find the beauty and pleasure inherent in mainstream religious practice. Of course it's not so easy to ignore the corrosive aspects of religion, and perhaps more difficult still to actually attend a service as the early Epicureans did!

From what I've read there's some complexity regarding the prolepses in that Epicurus had a very empirical view of them, but later Epicureans expanded them to be more in line with how we understand them. There were arguments as to the place of active mental focusing versus prolepses: were these prolepses or did they occur separately?

It could be of interest to study these and other developments within the school, keeping in mind the developments in the societies in which the various generation of Epicureans lived and worked. There are some articles in https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/filebase/ that might information beyond DeWitt in this regard.

This is a fascinating and important topic, and a lot to digest! There's a reason that it was apparent saved for advanced study in Epicurus' day. I'll weigh in here but I've got limited time so hopefully I can make a coherent contribution.

Discussion of the gods is inseparable from discussion of prolepsis. So to start, I think an excellent definition of prolepsis is "the faculty of pattern recognition." This compares to the faculty of the senses or of the feelings. An individual prolepsis is true in the same way that an individual sensation is true: it's what is perceived, but it doesn't necessarily correctly represent the external physical condition (think of the square/round tower example).

Next, there is the particular prolepsis, in this case that of the gods (in the same way as there are particular sensations, for example). Finally, as I understand it, a particular prolepsis is not fixed but can change over time. Think of the infant's inkling of justice v that of an adult. A recognition of a pattern evolves as more information relevant to the particular pattern becomes available.

So for me, the core, and potentially unsolvable, problem is to determine what is the most primitive version of the "god prolepsis." It's certainly not a white haired, bearded man in a toga or a shape shifting animal as in some cultures. These are additional pieces of information added to one's innate prolepsis, by the individual's culture, from birth. The question is "what pre-dates this?"

Don I thought you might enjoy that catnip . Thanks for looking into it!

Still a little shaky but I'm well enough to be bored!

This book was written in French by Festugiere in 1946 and translated to English by C.W. Chilton in 1955. It’s fairly short at around 100 pages, including pages of footnotes (many in Greek and many non-English sources) at the ends of the chapters. It’s a pretty easy read, not too academic, with but a little untranslated Greek, but there is enough information in it that one could dig into the subject quite deeply if so inclined. It can be read for free online at the internet archive.

Here are some brief notes I took while reading it. They’re not so much descriptive of the book as a whole as they are of things that caught my interest while reading it: I was looking to find out more about Epicurus’ use of religion and perhaps prolepseis. The notes are quotes or paraphrases from the book, followed by page numbers. Any of my additional thoughts are added after the page numbers. Overall I’d say the book is worth reading as a good overview, although it leans heavily toward the ascetic and toward the absence of pain school.

1. In the preface is a discussion of absence of pain….

2. The tetrapharmakos, freedom from pain, etc is only the means to ataraxia. Ataraxia does not comprise all happiness, it is the indispensable condition. Otherwise EP would be Buddhism, which it is not. There is a positive aspect to joy which depends on the self sufficiency of the individual: spiritual joy. This is found in the study of nature and of philosophy. Ευθυμία, χαρά, ευφροσύνη. To meditate unceasingly, day and night, on the things which bring happiness, alone or with a friend, is the essential obligation of a sage. (pages 32-33)

3. From Google translate: Ευθυμία = frolic, (from Wiktionary: cheerfulness, good mood, contentment, tranquility); χαρά = joy; ευφροσύνη = cheerfulness

4. Wisdom means a life of the spirit and the exercise of wisdom is the practice of that life. (page 36)

5. Friendship contributes more than anything to happiness. Epicureanism was a spirit much more than a doctrine. (page 42)

6. In a sentence the author uses the phrase “concepts born of sensation” (followed by προληψεις [prolepseis] and a citation that I don’t understand) (page 58)

7. Prayer is proper to wisdom, not because the gods would be annoyed if we did not pray, but because we see how much the nature of the gods is superior to us in power and excellence. (page 60)

8. We adapt everything that happens to us to the manner of living which befits divine felicity. (page 61)

9. The divine needs no mark of honor, but it is natural for us to honor it, in particular by forming pious notions of it, and secondly by offering... the traditional sacrifices. ...since the gods are indescribably happy, to draw close to them in prayer and to offer sacrifices and traditional festivities is to take part in their happiness. (page 61)

10. The goal of this religious activity is the contemplation of beauty, a very Greek notion. (page 62) I have in the past attended church services for the purpose of listening to an exceptional choir, this was quite pleasurable. This also brings to mind my enjoyment of some of the finer examples of church architecture. I think we have a thread with some discussion of this from when Notre Dame burned down in Paris.

11. The Sage addresses prayers to the gods, he admires their nature and condition, he strives to come near to it, to touch and live with it, and he calls wise men and gods friends of each other. (page 63)

12. The most blessed gift is to have a clear perception of things. (page 64)

13. The Platonic gods of necessity leave room only for fear and despair: it would be better to banish belief in gods altogether. (page 75) This seems to touch on our contemporary problem. The idea of “god” has become Plato’s idea of god over the centuries. To me, this is why it seems so difficult to understand Epicurus’ gods and why the only proper interpretation today is to imagine gods as an ideal to strive for. I’m not even sure if this conception of the gods relates to what to me is a prolepsis of awe and wonder.

14. In a world emptied of the divine seek the means of living happily by the sole means of limiting one's desires. (page 88)

15. DeWitt article in bibliography: The Gods of Epicurus and the Canon, Trans. Roy. Soc. Of Canada, Ottawa, XXXVI, 1942, pp. 33ff. (I’m not able to find this but it might be a good read.

Thanks for the warnings about the dryness of Aristotle! There was something nagging at me (a prolepsis??): Cassius and Susan you reminded me that I once started to read Nichomachean Ethics. After just a few pages I had to toss it and have a drink. I think I'll shelve reading him for the time being .

Isonomia is a concept that I can't quite wrap my head around. Saying that the causes of destruction and conservation are both infinite makes sense to me as relating to modern science. I can't make sense of applying the idea to mortals and immortals. The idea that everything has it's exact match and counterpart seems to be a logical speculation based on infinity, but I'm not sure I'd call it a "principle."

Cassius I agree with your interpretation of prolepses and, like the physics, I feel that they are largely confirmed by modern neuroscience.

What I'm doing is trying to see if a reading of Plato sheds any more light of Epicurus' specific thoughts. My doing this is problematic, primarily because I've read very little Plato and even less Aristotle . So it's very much a learning experience and I very much appreciate your feedback!

I've never really looked into Laertius' take on prolepses and I don't think it shows a complete understanding of the ideas. Calling it Laertius' take is probably a bad word choice, maybe "academic interpretation" is more accurate. Reading Phaedo, Plato's take on the soul and recollections (among other things) is so poorly reasoned and off base that I can imagine that Epicurus would be justified in negating every point that Plato makes. But as you mentioned elsewhere, Aristotle also had things to say; do you know roughly where Aristotle's thoughts on this can be found? I remember DeWitt mentioning Aristotle and I haven't reviewed him (DeWitt) yet, but will at some point.

The theory of eidola is presented as a way of obtaining knowledge of the gods and is also consistent with the accumulation of knowledge after being born, without any supernatural soul to recollect from. This is another point that has piqued my curiosity in this regard.

Bottom line, there's no question that any theory of prolepses consistent with EP must be materialist and occur after conception of life. No woo woo!

Yes I think the first third is the most worthwhile part, at least regarding our questions here. The second and third parts are devoted to divine providence, intelligent design and similar notions. I, for one, feel my time is better spent understanding Epicurus!

There is a notable passage on the prolepses in Book 1 (paragraph 44) Oxford World Classics version, translated and annotated by P.G. Walsh, who is apparently a Latin scholar.

"He [Epicurus] was the only person to realize first, that gods exist because nature herself has imprinted the conception of them in the minds of all—for what nation or category of men does not have some anticipation of gods, without being indoctrinated? Epicurus terms this prolepsis,* in other words the conception of an object previously grasped by the mind, without which nothing can be understood, investigated, or discussed. We have come to appreciate the force and usefulness of this reasoning as a result of the divine treatise of Epicurus entitled Rule and Judgement."

Walsh footnotes prolepsis with: "in § 44 Cicero claimed to have coined the Latin word anticipatio to render this Greek concept. Thereby he distorts (whether intentionally or not is disputed) the true sense of prolepsis. Epicureans argue that following the repeated impact of images on the senses or the mind, we grasp a general conception of an object (as in this case of the gods); this is what prolepsis implies. Cicero’s rendering appears to interpret it as previous knowledge of objects before their images have impacted on the senses, in other words a knowledge which predates sense-experience."

I find this quite interesting, having recently read Phaedo. The interpretation in this footnote is not one that I've taken too seriously based on DeWitt and I can't attest to it's validity. It does, however, completely discount any recollections from before our birth. How this would relate to instinct is unclear, but I think it does align with "pattern recognition." Sure wish we could read Epicurus' Rule and Judgement!

So I'm just starting to skim/read On the Nature of the Gods. It does seem to be worth reading in that Vellius clarifies the Epicurean position by comparing (belittling, more accurately) the various schools and their conceptions of gods and providence. I'll at least read Vellius' presentation; not sure how much time I'll give to the other arguments.

@Susan Hill before I recommend Cicero I'll give it a quick review, for my benefit as well as yours. At the time I read it I wasn't even aware that there were ancient Greek atomists, and I've read quite a bit since then so my recollection is pretty vague. Cassius probably has a better sense of it in terms of giving an off-the-cuff recommendation, but I'll post again after I've had a look.

Sorry that I missed the discussion on this last night. I'm beginning to think that there's a lot more to understanding Epicurean gods than the idealist v realist discussion.

My introduction to Epicurus was through reading Cicero's On the Nature of the Gods, so as I began studying Epicurus I was a bit obsessed with the gods. Also with the prolepses as an intertwined idea. I've been going with the idealist interpretation for quite some time, but recent reading has me wanting to dig deeper.

A particular point is that Epicurus began both the letter to Menoeceus and the PDs with the gods, which gives them a degree of importance. Why? Also, what does a person gain by believing in a god (especially one that you can't ask for stuff from), and how is that compatible with this philosophy? And there's always the problem of whether or not what was relevant in Epicurus' time is still relevant to us today.

Susan that's a good point about the Stoic schism: that's actually what got me reading Cicero. To me, the modern Stoics were invalidating much of their system by their treatment of providence. So it seems like a relevant issue in EP, although we really don't seem to have a whole lot to go on. Given that, I look forward to continued reading and discussion!

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And if we acquired this knowledge before we were born, and were born having the use of it, then we also knew before we were born and at the instant of birth not only the equal or the greater or the less, but all other ideas; for we are not speaking only of equality, but of beauty, goodness, justice, holiness, and of all which we stamp with the name of essence in the dialectical process, both when we ask and when we answer questions.

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Then may we not say, Simmias, that if, as we are always repeating, there is an absolute beauty, and goodness, and an absolute essence of all things; and if to this, which is now discovered to have existed in our former state, we refer all our sensations, and with this compare them, finding these ideas to be pre-existent and our inborn possession— then our souls must have had a prior existence, but if not, there would be no force in the argument? There is the same proof that these ideas must have existed before we were born, as that our souls existed before we were born; and if not the ideas, then not the souls.

These are the cites of "essence" from the Phaedo passage above.

This is my take on the main points. I'm putting words in Epicurus' mouth by using my own understanding.

1A. Plato: there is knowledge before birth of equality, beauty, goodness, justice, holiness; dialectic “essences.” This is not possible without an immortal soul.

1B. Epicurus: there is no immortal soul, therefore by Plato's logic there can be no "essences."

2A. Plato: knowledge obtained before birth is forgotten at birth but still exists in the memory of the soul, therefore “learning” is properly called “recollection.”

2B. Epicurus: the soul does not exist before birth, but we have an inborn faculty to recognize concepts (for example justice, truth). This is the faculty of prolepsis.

3A. Plato: when we perceive something through the senses, we obtain a notion of some other thing which is associated with it. This notion is in the memory of our immortal soul and thus is "recollection."

3B. Epicurus: through repeated exposure to something through the senses we are able to construct a concept of that thing using the faculty of prolepsis. This conceptualizing occurs after the birth of the perceiver.

I just finished this episode and you covered quite a bit of what I've noticed regarding "Fido" v prolepses: we seem to have "cross posted," as it were.

Excellent episode, lots of informative discussion! Discussing Plato is very useful to better understand Epicurus, although it's pretty discouraging to consider that Plato is taught so extensively and Epicurus hardly at all.

As an aside, I'm finding reading Plato to be much easier now that I'm grounded in Epicurus. When I was much younger, with no exposure to philosophy, it was kind of infuriating but challenging. Now it reads as comedy, although for comedic reading Lucian writes better dialogs.

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The first thought that comes to my mind is "Is it possible that serving as response to the Recollection theory is primarily or exclusively what the prolepsis theory was all about?

That definitely is the pertinent question!

I think you're right that there's a distinction between concepts of real world things and universal abstractions. There are a lot of details to review: when I get a chance I'd like to do a point by point comparison between this Phaedo passage and what the pertinent Epicurean sources have to say. Time to make some lists...