Posts by Godfrey

I've only read up through section 5.4, but find it quite interesting in that the authors interpret the goal of EP as absence of pain and then show (beginning in 5.4) that modern research invalidates absence of pain as a valid goal. Apparently modern research has validated many of the positions that we tend to take here.

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Pain relief and the escape from expected pain leads to positive affect (e.g. Frijda, 1988; Lazarus, 1991), but continuous absence of pain does not necessarily lead to happy tranquillity, but can also be boring. Headey and Wearing (1992) describe the fact that a significant minority of people have low levels of psychological distress and are unhappy at the same time. Csikszentmihaly (1999) states that happiness results from optimal functioning that can be found between boredom and anxiety. These findings contradict Epicurus’ notion of happiness as mere absence of pain. Epicurus’ happiness advice does not cater for exhilarating aspects of a business man’s life that involves risks and losses but also makes one live to the full and be happy on balance. He also did not think of anhedonia, the inability to experience emotion, that is characteristic of people with a depressive disorder. This condition is often more difficult to bear than emotional pain itself. Happiness is definitely something other than the mere absence of all pain (Bergsma, 1995).

Headey and Wearing (1992, pp. 4–8) also notice that some people are happy despite the fact that they experience high levels of psychological distress. People often perceive life as both quite satisfying and quite stressful. This goes against Epicurus’ idea that happiness can be equated with absence of pain. Still, the combination of high distress with happiness can be reconciled with Epicurus’ philosophy, because of his idea that we can learn to tolerate pain.

The independence of positive and negative affect has two consequences for Epicurus’ position. His notion that avoiding pain is sufficient for establishing a good quality of life may be too conservative. The second consequence is that he neglected the role of positive affect. We start with a discussion of his ideas to avoid pain.

So while I'm not convinced by the authors' interpretation of EP, I'm looking forward to continuing to read how they invalidate the absence of pain interpretation.

Thanks for posting this, Brett!

Where is it that the Epicurean gods are described as being in human form and speaking Greek? Is that in Cicero? Lucretius? I wonder how that relates to this discussion....

I haven't yet read the full Sedley piece so I might be repeating something in there or in Jackson. But for the full context of this and similar discussions we've got to keep in mind that Epicurus was considering a very specific notion of gods, which of course was the Greek idea. I think that that's part of the difficulty in that it's very tempting for people today to intermingle a variety of conceptions of gods and god and "spirituality" with the Greek conception of gods. Similarly with the physics: part of the beauty of Epicurean physics is how relevant they are to today's physics. This can beguile us into conflating our ideas with his. Taken together this makes for a very tangled web: modern notions of physics can confuse Epicurean notions of gods, and vice versa.

Regarding the prolepses, I've no problem with a prolepsis of justice (fairness?) as it does seem to be something seen in children and some animals. Plus the PDs are quite specific on how to work with that prolepsis. A prolepsis of the gods is more difficult to sort out: is this prolepsis supposed to be the same in all cultures?

Thanks for those, Don.

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It's not my personal experience of “the Other”...

Susan would you be comfortable elaborating on this? I'm wondering if that could be helpful in defining what exactly we're discussing.

This essay of interest popped up in my feed:

https://www.academia.edu/28618657/Nothi…%A1ximo_de_Tiro

From the conclusion:

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Maximus undertakes, in an Academic stance, the defence of Epicurus by letting him speak on his own behalf in an oration carefully fleshed out with a good deal of Epicurean doctrines; by means of this figure he states the case for the “other” side of the debate regarding pleasure, a fundamental one to those who want to be initiated in philosophy. Besides, at the centre of the oration, Socrates himself appears compulsively in pursuit of beauty, nonetheless able to unite pleasure and virtue. Furthermore, the source for this hedonistic Socrates were those dialogues in which he involved himself in dialectical enquiries with handsome youths for the sake of education. All things considered, Maximus has given Epicurus his due, to the point of making of Socrates an Epicurean of sorts, someone from whom much can be learnt.

I had never heard of Maximus, but apparently he devoted a few orations to pleasure. His orations can be purchased on Amazon for a modest $900 . Is anyone familiar with him?

The blessed and incorruptible being has no troubles itself nor causes trouble for others; therefore it does not experience feelings of anger or indebtedness, for such feelings signify weakness.

(A combination of several translations based on discussion here: Blessed and Imperishable?)

As an addendum, I was about to start a thread on PD1 and gratitude. In researching, I found this thread and it seems that not only is my question answered here but that it also ties up a loose end in the thread.

From Don in the initial post:

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Being affected by anger as a sickness or weakness makes sense, but why would being affected by gratitude be a sign of weakness? One conjecture would be that it would show a lack of self-reliance / αυτάρκεια.

The word "gratitude" seems problematic as, to me, one who is blessed would experience a general sense of gratitude. Denying gratitude seems quite un-Epicurean! The wiki translation in post #15 gets to a more accurate sense of the doctrine in my opinion: "indebtedness," or "favors" as they translate it in their first pass.

That was probably me... I posted on it here: Thoughts on Reverence, Awe, and Epicurean Piety. I don't remember the details of the article although I do remember that it really got me thinking about the subject.

From the article that Susan linked to in #18:

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But we know that young babies are also busy little scientists scanning, analyzing, and making sense of their environment.

This could explain babies' sustained rapt attention.

Regarding awe, as they say at least once in every TV show, "it's complicated." Feelings and emotions are slippery terms, which is why "reactions" might be a good translation of pathe (Don, did you suggest that?) There is definitely a reactive element to emotions: what you feel (there's that word ) right away in response to sensations. I'd say that the pathe are the reactive parts of emotions, and that they are felt as either pleasure or pain. A particular emotion can be either painful or pleasant. So emotions and pathe are intertwined in some way it seems, but putting it into words gets confusing.

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I keep going back to those experiments with infants and toddlers on fair play, "justice", etc. We humans seem too have an innate sense of justice and fair play as well as awe and amazement. That's where my analysis of the prolepses starts.

Don, that is a good place to start. Taking the viewpoint of prolepses as a "faculty that disposes us organize what we perceive..." then justice and fair play seem to be a way of connecting our sensations with our feelings. An infant sees someone do something and then feels good, this is "organized" as a perception of justice.

Awe seems more complex I think.... Is it a strong emotion? This brings up two points: aren't emotions "components" of pleasure and pain? Also emotions can diminish over time (one can get jaded to what once caused a strong reaction) but it seems like prolepses tend to sharpen over time.

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...I would probably use words like a "faculty" that "disposes us to organize what we perceive" in ways that are helpful to our forming of mental images that we then store in our memories and use as operators for further analysis.

Cassius, that's a good description to me, if we could just find a nice, concise way of saying that! But as you say it is just a start. That's one reason that I think that grappling with the gods (as it were) is a fruitful exercise.

Oops I see I cross posted! My last post is referring to post #18 from Susan.

Susan could you clarify this? One does see these things, so are you saying that that makes spirituality innate? I would say that attraction to mystery is innate and possibly part of the process of "pattern recognition" or "anticipations," and that for some people that attraction can motivate them toward attentiveness to certain patterns. But to me, "spirituality" is quite a broad and somewhat vague term and that makes it difficult for me to wrap my head around.

As an aside, there's a science fiction book that takes a completely opposite look at immortals: The Boat of a Million Years, by Poul Anderson. It follows the lives of a few people who, for some unexplained reason, were born immortal. This only became evident to them as they stopped aging and outlived their peers, their children, etc. The drama of the book comes from how they have to interact with society and, eventually, with each other. They're pretty much the opposite of PD1, which makes it an interesting read and an obtuse way to meditate on the Epicurean gods. Also a tonic when thinking about the gods reaches a point of brain freeze!

To me it's important when considering the gods to keep anticipations in mind.

Going a little freeform here.... Consider the anticipations as "pattern recognition." The obvious implication of this is recognizing patterns, but the less obvious (and here I'm speculating ) implication is the urge to solving mysteries, which at some level is recognizing patterns. Nature and life are full of mystery (which of course we should celebrate), and to me it is the urge to solving mysteries of nature which is the true anticipation of the gods. That seems to be the main common denominator between polytheistic, monotheistic, animistic, human, "primitive" and "advanced" conceptions of gods. To me, the idea that the gods speak Greek or are individuals or that there is one all-powerful God, when seen as an anticipation, is evidence of the effect of cultural norms on pattern recognition which in turn had an effect on Epicurus' ideas of the gods. Visions of the gods can come from exposure to the myths just as visions of the dead can come from memories of the living.

It's also of great use when considering the anticipations to keep the gods in mind.

For some reason 8 followed by a ) shows up as . Is there a ghost in the machine?

1) Follow pleasure.

2) To follow pleasure is to follow the faculties.

3) Knowledge comes through three faculties: senses, pattern recognition, and feelings of pleasure and pain.

4) Balance the three faculties.

5) Regard reason with suspicion if it is not grounded in the faculties.

6) Sharpen the senses, increase the input.

7) Maximize the quantity of input.

Scrutinize all input.

9) Clarity of input improves overall function.

10) Pattern recognition is non-conscious cognition.

11) Pattern recognition is a bridge from input to reaction.

12) Open to your intuition.

13) Observe the guidance of your pleasures and pains.

14) Every pleasure is good, but not every desire: don't confuse the impulse with the faculty.

15) Understand the motivation and consequences of all desires.

16) Distinguish between utility and vanity.

17) Every pleasure is good, but not always chosen.

18) Every pain is bad, but not always avoided.

19) The limit of pleasure is the absence of pain, but pursuing a negative will not lead to a positive.

20) Pain is a faculty, experience it in its immediate fullness.

21) Reflect on your fear, grief and hate, and how they prevent reaching the goal.

22) Many pains are more than balanced by pleasure over time.

23) Maintain attention to present experience and perception.

24) Understand the implications of science.

25) All there is is composed of matter-energy and void, as described by physics.

26) The extent of the void is infinite.

27) The quantity of matter-energy is infinite.

28) Matter-energy is uncreatable and indestructible.

29) All there is is infinite in time.

30) Solid bodies are either compounds of matter-energy particles or simple matter-energy particles.

31) Compound bodies have emergent properties described by physics.

32) Life exists throughout the universe.

33) Evolution takes patience.

34) Contemplate how you came to be born at this time, in this corner of the universe.

35) The faculties are emergent properties of living matter.

36) Free will is an emergent property of living matter.

37) There is nothing supernatural, no ideal realm, no “higher truth”.

38) God will not punish you or save you.

39) The soul is corporeal and begins and ends with the body.

40) In this I live, and move, and have my being.

41) Regularly experience awe.

42) Live right, don't fear death, prepare to die.

43) Living pleasurably requires living with prudence and virtue, and vice versa.

44) At all critical times connect your actions to the natural goal of life.

45) Success is abiding pleasure, happiness, contentment, peace.

46) The goal is not neutral.

47) Find pleasure in the journey.

48) There is pleasure in self-sufficiency, safety and friendship.

49) Periodically bask in joy.

50) "Truth" and "Justice" arise from pattern recognition and are not absolutes.

51) Justice is a covenant.

52) Verification and lack of evidence to the contrary establishes truth, and vice versa.

53) Carve out time for a hobby.

54) Young or old, there’s no time like the present.

55) Life is the greatest good: practice gratitude.

As has come up in another thread, here is my list of pleasure slogans. This is most definitely a work in progress!!!

The idea was inspired by the form, but not the content, of the Tibetan Buddhist “lojong slogans.” This is intended as both a learning tool and a practice tool.

The slogans should be such that studying them in order would provide a fairly complete introduction to EP

To do this, the slogans would need to be accompanied by relevant cites from the texts, as well as perhaps some commentary or questions to serve as an additional guide.

As a practice tool, I’m finding that for me they’re best used by randomly picking one and “living with it” for a day, a few days, or as long as the slogan seems relevant. I’ve just been thinking about the chosen slogan as it pops into my head throughout the day. Other, possibly better options are to track down relevant texts (which would be valuable but I just can’t seem to put my mind to it) or, if one enjoys journaling, to write one’s thoughts about the chosen slogan.

Regarding this particular list, all of the slogans are intentionally short, in modern English and most of them are not taken directly from the texts. They are divided between “theory” and “practice.” They’re probably a can of worms in that many of them make sense to me, but possibly not to anybody else. Having said that, I think that having an obscure one now and then stimulates a bit more thought and provides a new way of looking at an idea; at least that works for me. Also certain ones may make no sense at one point but be very useful at another.

I’ve no idea how best to discuss these, which is part of the reason I haven’t broached them earlier. So to open a Pandora’s box, here they are:

I mentioned it in passing a while back. It has lots of possibilities but also is a can of worms; I'll post it in a day or two and we'll see where it goes!