Posts by Godfrey

Quote from Kalosyni

This is where I believe that certain "natural goods" are important -- such as the need for friendship/companionship (and all the enjoyments that come with it) which can make life situations feel better or less stressful or less disappointing.

The interpretation that I'm currently working with is that natural and necessary desires, such as friendship, are a priority. Fulfilling them is the bottom limit of the sweet spot. Once those are met, there's great pleasure to be had in pursuing a variety of desires, as long as we stay in the sweet spot and below the upper limit that is the vain desires. If the natural and necessary desires haven't been fulfilled, then it's a priority to work with them, although this will most likely be done concurrent with pursuing natural and unnecessary desires. In the process of sorting out all of these desires we determine what, for us as individuals, is natural and necessary and what is the icing on the cake. At least for me, it's a constant work in progress!

Absolutely! Awe, and also coming to grips with mystery through myths. And passing myths down to children at such a young age that the myths seem innate.

Quote from reneliza

I’m still curious about the second part though: “if one measures, by reason, the limits of pleasure.”

What if we allow for multiple explanations, as in the letter to Pythocles? Reasoning might lead one to:

- A person’s pleasure is limited by their finite life: their life is still finite, regardless of the infinity of time.

- If you're in a state of pleasure, the length of time of that state is immaterial and can't be quantified, so finite or infinite time are irrelevant (correct me if I'm wrong; that's how I understand Martin's point).

- Using the idea of homeostasis (at least as I understand it) as a teeter-totter, pleasure can be thought of as a state of balance. Too much pleasure brings pain, which seeks a return to the state of balance and could be considered as a limit to pleasure. In the absence of pleasure, we'll do anything to obtain it, to return to the state of balance.

These are three valid (I think) ideas of the limits of pleasure and there are certainly more. The previous PDs provide guidelines to understand pleasure, to use while reasoning this out. I think there are multiple ways to interpret this, as long as you use reasoning to rule out interpretations such as "God will fill my life with pleasure, whether in this life or the next, so I don't need to worry about time" or "I can do whatever I want to find pleasure, regardless of the consequences".

The more you grapple with reasoning out the issue, the more ramifications and nuances you might find.

To me, pleasure has been defined in PD18 and a variety of previous PDs beginning with PD03. I think PD19 is referencing those, and pivoting to the subject of craving infinite time for infinite pleasure. PD20 then mentions "fears about a life after death" and "departure from life", which seems to indicate that this is the subject of these two PDs, not pleasure. The two are describing the temporal limits of a person and how to think about it. [Parentheses are my additions.]

PD19. Infinite time contains no greater pleasure [the body’s goal] than does finite time, if one determines the limits of pleasure rationally.

PD20. The body takes the limits of pleasure to be infinite, and infinite time would provide such pleasure. But the mind has provided us with the complete life by a rational examination of the body’s goal and limitations and by dispelling our fears about a life after death [as described in previous PDs] ; and so we no longer need unlimited time. On the other hand, it does not avoid pleasure [which is the body’s goal, after all], nor, when conditions occasion our departure from life, does it come to the end in a manner that would suggest that it had fallen short in any way of the best possible existence.

Imagine that you are experiencing a bliss that's so great that you want it to last forever. At some point you'll bring yourself pain if you start to crave the experience. These are saying that you need to understand that your life is finite, so enjoy your bliss. Don't crave it, but don't reject bliss because it's going to end: relish it for what it is, and relish your finite life for what it is.

So I think that if you try to understand PD19 as saying something about pleasure specifically it becomes confusing and mysterious. At least for me, it becomes much clearer and simpler as I'm trying to describe it. "Now that you have a reasoned understanding of pleasure and of the material universe, think about what it means to have a finite life in an infinite universe." This, by itself, is a lot to think about.

Another option:

Infinite time contains no greater quantity of dark chocolate eaten than finite time, if one measures, by reason, the limits of quantity of dark chocolate eaten. Or, perhaps pet puppies could be used.

I mean this to be serious, not snarky. If you reason that what Epicurus is referring to is that life is finite, then just about anything that an individual experiences could be substituted for pleasure and would make the same point.

But since Epicurus used the word pleasure, is he using the word because it is the goal that he is concerned with or is he making a different point than what I'm understanding?

I'll use this opportunity to get back on my desire soapbox. Desires are what we actually work with; pleasure and pain are reactions. I've got a working hypothesis that the categories of desires describe the upper and lower limits of desires (not pleasures), and that by defining these for oneself, a person develops a personal sweet spot for working with desires in order to discover what leads to their most pleasant life.

In the Principle Doctrines, it seems that the Doctrines on pleasure go from more theoretical to more practical as you progress through the Doctrines. So I'm also thinking that PD18-21 may actually be more pertinent, once one has worked through the earlier ones. I think that they build on each other. After that come the PDs on desires. One's understanding has to progress through the sequence in order to gain a practical understanding of the ethics.

Sorry that I won't make it, but I have two comments on PD21. Maybe more like questions than comments....

I was thinking that "the limits of life" in this PD may actually be "the limits of the good life". Looking through Nate's compilation I see that Strodach actually used that wording, although he's the only one and I've no idea of the Greek nuance.

The reason this may be important is that what is described in this PD might be considered a lower limit of the good life. I know of no evidence for this, but it comes from my thinking that the categories of desires describe a sweet spot between a lower limit of a good life as described here, and an upper limit at the nebulous place where desires become unlimited.

Cassius just blame it on an unknown scholar, that's where I thought the grouping came from

Here it is:

Post

A foodie ponders Epicurus the epicurean

https://www.academia.edu/11401667/_Epic…es_philosopher_

This essay was a nice accompaniment to my tea and dark chocolate this morning. I enjoyed the author's discussion of pleasure, food and friendship in the Garden. He also addressed Plato nicely. I'm not so sure about his linking Epicurus to liberalism, but I really haven't given that much thought so maybe I'm exposing my ignorance. All in all, I found it a very perceptive piece that, to me, conceives of Epicurus much as we do here and…

Godfrey

February 9, 2020 at 3:38 PM

Kalosyni please consider posting more if you read further in the book! I read a short article some time ago by (I think) the same author. I enjoyed the article and was curious how the author was going to develop his ideas. I also think we have a thread on that: I'll see if I can find it.

It was said in another thread that PD22 was included in a "paragraph" with PD18-21 (I don't remember where that grouping was written). I was just reading through the PDs by Saint-Andre and, at least in his translation I felt that PD22 would be more appropriately lumped with PD23-25. It's almost a transition between the two groups, but to me it fits better with the latter group.

I have no idea what scholar I'm disagreeing with but I thought I'd mention it

Archetypes are interesting to ponder from an ancient Greek framework. Are they ideal forms? Are they prolepseis/pre-conceptions/anticipations?

If they're the former, we're being sucked into Plato’s world. The latter might find a place in an Epicurean worldview but I don't have a cohesive opinion on the matter. I spent a couple weeks reading about them at one point and by the end of my reading I thought that they weren't as compelling as I had anticipated they might have been. But there’s lots to dig into, and analyzing them with respect to pre-conceptions could be fruitful, particularly since pre-conceptions seem to be intertwined with the understanding of Epicurean gods.

The attached paper seems pretty pertinent, so much so that I almost posted it when I first read it. So much to discuss, so little time!

(Living with the Gods: On Beliefs and Peoples by Neil MacGregor is a book that I'd heartily recommend to anyone interested in an art historical take on gods, although I don't think that it deals with archetypes. It's a hefty book, but an enjoyable read.)

I believe that there's some controversy about the validity of Jungian archetypes even among Jungians. I read an article a while back that discussed that, but I may be confusing the details. If a thread gets going I'll try to find the article and post it.

Isonomia is a really juicy topic, and yet another one that baffles me. It would make a great thread on its own; in fact I think we were discussing it not too long ago.

My take is that PS18-22 are discussing a finite human life in contrast to infinite time. Infinite time, space, quantities &c seem to me to be a different topic from this. Isonomia seems to be something implied by infinity, but I'm not even sure about that as I think the usage attributed to Epicurus is different from the common Greek usage.

Don : yes, that's a good paraphrase!

I would add that the PDs are stated in terms of limits and of nature, which ties into other uses of those terms. But yours is a good summary of the point of these particular PDs, at least as I currently understand them.

Why thank you Don !

A key point for me is that infinite and finite time are being discussed, not infinite and finite life. Those are two completely different discussions.

Quote

The flesh assumes that the limits of joy are infinite, and that infinite joy can be produced only through infinite time. But the mind, thinking through the goal and limits of the flesh and dissolving fears about eternity, produces a complete way of life and therefore has no need of infinite time;

I think that this passage is specifically making that point. If you understand the limits of the flesh and don't fear being dead, then you can focus on the goal without stressing over the fact that you won't live forever. There's no point in thinking about infinite pleasure because the flesh doesn't last forever. Revel in the time you have, as it were.

Cassius I think these PDs are making the same point that you frequently make: one's life is finite and there's no afterlife, so make the most of the time you have. As we don't pick the most at a banquet (which is also finite) but the most pleasant. The more I read them, the more I see that as the point. No talk of jellybeans is necessary for these PDs, that discussion only confuses the point here.

At least that's my current take. I found these rather baffling before reading this thread, but this seems to me to be the clearest reading. I don't think Epicurus was playing word games. I think he was making the above point, and elaborates by emphasizing the language he uses elsewhere regarding the goal of life. He doesn't use word games but he does write things in such a way that you have to think about them and thereby make them your own.

Quote

Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning.

At the risk of over-simplifying, this line jumps out at me. A human lifespan is by nature limited and there is no afterlife. So I'm seeing this line as contrasting a limited, natural lifespan with an unlimited amount of time. One's life contains a fixed amount of joy, no matter that time may be infinite. He's referring to his reasoning on the vanity of the fear of death. There's no need for hypotheticals here, just sensible reasoning.

Kalosyni I noticed on your blog post that you list planning as a pleasure of anticipation. I like that you did that: I often think of planning as tedious, that it requires thinking about things that need to be done, pleasant or not. Reframing planning as anticipation of future pleasures is a really good approach and helpful for keeping the goal of pleasure at hand while planning, thus making planning an Epicurean "exercise".